I'm glad they chose Ratzinger. The previous pope was a...

[Zenlitened]

... wolf in sheep's clothing.

This one is just a wolf.

On Monday, Ratzinger, who was the powerful dean of the College of Cardinals, used his homily at the Mass dedicated to electing the next pope to warn the faithful about tendencies that he considered dangers to the faith: sects, ideologies like Marxism, liberalism, atheism, agnosticism and relativism - the ideology that there are no absolute truths.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050416121309990001

Maybe some people clinging to the delusion that they can be both liberal and devoted to the papacy will realize this is an insurmountable contradiction.

Liberalism dangerous to the catholic faith? You bet your ass. Spend enough time declaring people your enemy, and eventually they'll start acting like your enemy. Count me in.

:grr:



(edited HTML)

[Caution]

1. Don't count on it

There are already hundreds of posts defending this lunatic.

[GOPFighter]

2. I think you're right

The next few years will be tough on non-religious and non-fundies, but eventually it will hasten the decline of fundamentalist religions. (However, if we suffer a major pandemic or world-wide depression sometime soon, fundamentalism will be in full bloom all over the world. That scares me more that a conservative Pope!)

[onager]

3. Nobody expects the German Inquisition!

:hide:

(I like that line so much I've already used it in one of the "he won't be such a bad Pope" threads. Idjits!)

[trotsky]

4. Good catch.

Will be worth presenting to every pope-defending liberal.

[Zenlitened]

5. Watch for them to claim "liberalism" means something else...

... in a European context.

But I'd argue that the vatican knows exactly which words it's choosing, and why, and how they will be interpreted in America or anywhere else.

[Taxloss]

6. I am very depressed right now.

Hopefully this awful man will die very, very soon.

[Zenlitened]

8. I think the new pope was going to be a reactionary lunatic no matter what.

At least no one seems to be fooled that ratzy is some sort of kindly old man, as they believed his predecessor to be. I don't think he'll be able to wield quite the same influence that jp2 did. So that's progress.

[beam me up scottie]

7. So I guess

handing out condoms to people in AIDS ravaged third world countries is not on the agenda?

[Zenlitened]

9. Probably not! But maybe the UN will have an easier time...

... telling him to shut the fuck up than they did jp2.

[beam me up scottie]

10. LOL!

I bloody hope so.
Nobody should get a pass to condemn people to death because they paid lip service to other worthy causes.
It is still a crime as far as I'm concerned.

[Rhiannon12866]

11. I admired Karol Wojtyla for many reasons.

And have defended him on this board. He went underground to fight the Nazis, as a young man, saved Jewish children, and is credited with being instrumental in eradicating Communism from Eastern Europe. On this guy, I've got nothing. I don't think they called him "God's Rottweiler" for nothing! Yikes!
:scared:

[Zenlitened]

12. I think jp2's role in the cold war is somewhat mythologized.

In any event, his crusade to deny dignity and human rights to gays and lesbians vastly overshadows that, in my view.

His successor seems poised to do the same -- if indeed he wasn't already instrumental in the jp2 jihad.

Was ratzi a nazi? I dunno. But he sure seems to have learned their lessons well: demonizing entire groups of people and blaming them for everything that's "wrong" in the world.

Whata sick, perverted institution.

[trotsky]

13. Hrm, quite true.

demonizing entire groups of people and blaming them for everything that's "wrong" in the world.

I wonder how us nasty, evil, atheistic moral relativists are responsible for priests buggering little boys? :mad:

But your observation is correct - for fun, pop in over at the Catholic group to see how they're falling over each other to say basically that "Well, he may be really conservative and against virtually every liberal principle but if he's nice to the poor, that will be good enough."

("Nice to the poor" obviously not including sanctioning birth control.)

[Rhiannon12866]

22. I still defend JP II, on this board, since, despite his conservatism,

He was a good person, at heart, worked underground against the Nazis and secretly worked with Solidarity against Communism. And he was a man of great personal charm. People loved him. Ratzinger does not have the same attributes, except the social conservatism. No, he wasn't a Nazi, but did join Hitler Youth which, to be fair, was mandatory in the Germany of his youth, but he did not have the courage of Karol Wojtyla, though he was still a kid. But, IMHO, Karol Wojtyla was a hero, in his young life, against the Nazis and working to oppose Communism, even as Pope. On this guy, I've got nothing.:shrug:

And this cardinal disciplined nuns for ministering to AIDS patients and referred to other religions as "deficient." He may feel the need to reach out, to others, as Pope, but I think it's too little, too late. JP II actively reached out to both Jews and Muslims. And condemned the Iraq war and compared Bush* to the anti-Christ. In my book, he's one of the good guys.:-)

[Zenlitened]

23. Let me say this plainly: Your pope jp2 was not a good person.

His demonization of gays and lesbians was something straight out of the nazi playbook. Labeling an entire set of people as "evil," and blaming them for what's "wrong" in the world today.

I pity you if you honestly think that man was "good." You've bought into a comic-book version of history, and it's an insult to the millions of decent men and women hurt by him, and the lawyers and lobbyists on his payroll.

[Rhiannon12866]

24. It was Ratzinger who said this. He disciplined nuns for ministering to

AIDS patients!

And I said I did not agree with John Paul II on social issues. He was a total reactionary. And I am only pointing out the good that he did do, like working against the Nazis and the Communists. And I am a member of the Agnostic/Atheist group.

[trotsky]

14. You should post this in R&T. More people should be confronted

with this pope's own words indicating his hostility towards the principles this discussion board was founded on.

(If you don't want to take the heat, I'll post it for you!)

[Zenlitened]

15. I've kind of made a policy of not posting over there.

Let the religionists have their own hang-outs, I'm happy to avoid them. Nothing to be gained by arguing with zealots.

(GD is another story -- anything there I consider fair game, since a general audience is reading the threads.)

But go for it, if you'd like... and if you've got the stomach for it!

Expect them to tell you that the word "liberalism" means something else entirely in Europe. I call bullshit on that -- these vatican politicians choose their words carefully, and know full well what message they're sending.

:D

[trotsky]

16. Hey, R&T is no safe haven.

That's why it's a forum, not a group. One of its primary purposes is to be the area where the strongest atheist/theist debate occurs.

I'll be glad to post it for ya. :)

[Zenlitened]

17. Buckle your helmet, soldier!

:patriot:

See you on the other side!

:D

[trotsky]

18. Bwah ha ha ha! You called it!

Only made it to post #3 (and #2 was my follow-up!) before it emerged:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x18921#18925

[beam me up scottie]

19. That is exactly right.

Don't the mods move our threads from gd to r&t? We have just as much right to post there as they do. I think they should change the name to include those of no faith.
It's really the only place where we can discuss and debate the issues that affect all of us.
Groups are different, I don't want to invade their place.

[onager]

20. At least it's a lot of fun...

...watching DU's allegedly liberal Catholics frantically try to polish this stinking turd.

"Resistance was truly impossible," Georg Ratzinger (brother of the pope said as re: pope serving with Nazis).

Well, just off the top of my head, pretty much...

1941: general public outcry forces Nazis to back down and cancel the T-4 Program, better known as the "Euthanasia Program."

1942: Czech resistance assassinates Reinhard Heydrich, top deputy of Heinrich Himmler.

1943: Ukrainian resistance assassinates Wilhelm Kube, brutal Nazi overlord of the region. In a great ironic note, Aryan Superman Kube goes to Valhalla courtesy of a Jewish maid in his house, who replaces his hot-water bottle with a bomb.

1943: Gestapo arrests Jewish spouses of German citizens, plans to ship them to concentration camps. A week-long protest, led by German women, again forces the government to back down and release the prisoners.

1943: student resistance group The White Rose issues leaflets condemning "ordinary Germans" who do nothing to oppose Hitler. Leaders Hans and Sophie Scholl, brother and sister, are captured and killed by the Gestapo.

1938-1944: clandestine resistance groups in the German army make no less than 17 attempts to assassinate Hitler. The most famous attempt came on July 20, 1944.

Now there may be a good reason why some German Catholics never heard of the anti-Nazi resistance...cough...

Much of it was led by Socialists, Communists, and other suspiciously atheistic types.

[trotsky]

21. And the thing is,

it really defines a person's core values. Maybe Ratz didn't have the courage to take part in real resistance. That's OK! We're human, we all have limitations. But the problem becomes, shouldn't the man chosen to be God's representative on earth be held to a higher standard? IIRC, JP2 actively resisted the Nazis in Poland and helped many Jews escape, clearly putting himself in danger.

[Rhiannon12866]

25. The only thing I can say, in his defense, he really was still a kid,

While Karol Wojtyla was a little older, a young seminarian. I do know of stories where Wojtyla clearly placed himself in danger to save Jewish people. They had been his closest friends since boyhood and he always defended his friends, even as a kid, and against authority figures in his own church. You could forgive Ratzinger, because he was a kid, but, I agree, he should be held to a higher standard. And the actions that have defined his role, as a cardinal in Rome, are clearly not something that any liberal can endorse. I sure can't.:shrug: