Does atheism require the complete exclusion of spirituality?

[Gamey]

Maybe this has been discussed here before but I only lurk here off and on. I will use Native Americans as an example, particularly ancient ones. They feel a certain connection or oneness with the earth and life on it but don't necessarily believe in a god or gods. I could be wrong but it seems to be more of a reality invoking a spiritual thing rather than a belief system. I'm assuming the "hard-liners" will say yes otherwise you're an agnostic or unitarian universalist or some such.

[PassingFair]

1. Can you define "spirituality"?

I certainly feel that I have a "connection" with
people and things and nature. I feel that I "belong"
here...after all, this is where I AM.

Is that "spiritual"?

[salvorhardin]

2. No, not at all

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. You don't have to be a metaphysical naturalist (a philosophical materialist or physicalist) to be an atheist. However, while you don't give me enough in your OP to go on, it's just a hop, skip and a jump from atheism + spiritual views to pantheism.

Pantheism is a metaphysical and religious position. Broadly defined it is the view that (1) "God is everything and everything is God … the world is either identical with God or in some way a self-expression of his nature" (Owen 1971: 74). Similarly, it is the view that (2) everything that exists constitutes a "unity" and this all-inclusive unity is in some sense divine (MacIntyre 1967: 34). A slightly more specific definition is given by Owen (1971: 65) who says (3) "‘Pantheism’ … signifies the belief that every existing entity is, only one Being; and that all other forms of reality are either modes (or appearances) of it or identical with it." Even with these definitions there is dispute as to just how pantheism is to be understood and who is and is not a pantheist. Aside from Spinoza, other possible pantheists include some of the Presocratics; Plato; Lao Tzu; Plotinus; Schelling; Hegel; Bruno, Eriugena and Tillich. Possible pantheists among literary figures include Emerson, Walt Whitman, D.H. Lawrence, and Robinson Jeffers. Beethoven (Crabbe 1982) and Martha Graham (Kisselgoff 1987) have also been thought to be pantheistic in some of their work — if not pantheists.

Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism

Which is not a bad thing. As you can see, if pantheism appeals to you, you'd be in good intellectual company.

[mr blur]

3. Certainly requires the exclusion of the supernatural.

If you can define "spiritual" and exclude the supernatural...

[salvorhardin]

4. I don't think so

For instance, there are atheists who believe in ESP, ghosts and other supernatural phenomena. Does that make them any less atheists? I don't think so. If they don't believe in gods, then they're atheists (excepting the 21% of atheists who say they do believe in God, of course).

[mr blur]

11. Fair point (nt)

[Lost-in-FL]

5. Actually, one of the strongest critics of religion Sam Harris is a very spiritual person.

You could read in his article about his view of spirituality.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/sam_harris/2007/01/consciousness_without_faith_1.html

... I believe that most people are interested in spiritual life, whether they realize it or not. Every one of us has been born to seek happiness in a condition that is fundamentally unreliable. What you get, you lose. We are all (at least tacitly) interested in discovering just how happy a person can be in such a circumstance. On the question of how to be most happy, the contemplative life has some important insights to offer.

[brooklynite]

6. It doesn't have to, but...

I would argue that you apply the same principle: if there's no ability to objectively discern or measure "spirituality", why would you assume it exists?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

7. I'm an atheist but also a realist

I can obtain the same feelings of spirituality from a thought provoking movie or good music or a beautiful sunset. That doesn't mean that those feelings have a supernatural origin. We're all hard-coded to feel emotion, and feelings of spirituality are just an extension of that.

[realisticphish]

8. +1 nt

[BlueJazz]

9. What He said.

:)

[darkstar3]

10. Ask a Theravada Buddhist.

[ZombieHorde]

12. Many Buddhists and Taoists are both atheistic and spiritual. nt

[toddaa]

15. Which ones?

I've grown more uncomfortable over the years trying to wedge practicing Buddhists and Daoists into our camp. Both Mahayana and Theravadya Buddhist practitioners acknowledge vast array spiritual entities. Theravada comes closest to what you would call atheistic, but it does not preclude the worship of familial dieties out of cultural tradition. And Daoism, the religion, competes with Hinduism for sheer quantity of dieties. To claim that Buddhism and Daoism are atheistic, you must ignore a vast amount of religious history. Taking the religion out of the traditions tends to be a byproduct of their Westernization. I've read enough on Daoism, which I have long been fascinated by, to know that the Daodejing is considered by most Sinologists to predate Daoism the religion by about three hundred years. What's interesting about both religions is how they both competed and complemented each other. Along with Confucianism, they simmered over a long period of time into a very potent stew of philosophical, cultural and spiritual beliefs that just don't work in our Aristotelian worldview. This is not to say that there is a Western v. Eastern way of thought, but we are so indoctrinated by the Abrahamic religions, that it's difficult for us to think in a religious manner that does not fall back on the big sky daddy mindset.

Now, go read Zhaungzi's Autumn Floods and forget everything I said.

[ZombieHorde]

17. A close friend of mine was the spiritual cordinator for the Tibetan Buddhist center in my town.

He's an atheist. I have met a bunch a Buddhists through him, most of them are atheists. They say the gods are a metaphor for different aspects of their own minds.

I have also met some Taoists, and they were also atheists. They also viewed the gods as metaphors.

I feel confident in my claim, "many Buddhists and Taoists are both atheistic and spiritual." If I left out the word, "many," I would not feel confident in the claim.

This is not to say that there is a Western v. Eastern way of thought, but we are so indoctrinated by the Abrahamic religions, that it's difficult for us to think in a religious manner that does not fall back on the big sky daddy mindset.

One of my parents is an occultist/Buddhist, I do not have this difficulty.

[toddaa]

19. Not discounting your personal experience

But how many of these Buddhists and Daoists are converts? Traditional Daoism is pretty much a dead religion outside of Taiwan. The Maoists decimated it during the Cultural Revolution. I'm not denying the existence of atheist Buddhists, especially those from the Zen and Theravada paths. But I also cannot ignore 2000 years of Asian religious tradition, which has always been far more syncretic than Western tradition.

Perhaps we can agree on this. Modern Buddhism's spread into the West has become more atheistic.

[ZombieHorde]

20. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing with me at

the same time.

[toddaa]

21. Summarizing

The Western embrace of Buddism and Taoism, is very different from its long historical practice. That's it in a nutshell.

Yes, I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you. Frustrating as hell, huh?

Cheers

[Odin2005]

25. I consider myself an Atheist with Buddhist sympathies.

I don't believe in the rebirth mumbo-jumbo, but that is not a central part of Siddhartha Gautama's teachings, he was simply regurgitating the traditional beliefs of the day and they were not an essential or necessary part of his teaching according to the Buddhist master and Atheist Stephen Bachelor. Bachelor, looking though the various Theravada scriptures that are thought to be the most accurate accounts of Gautama's life there are several less well-known ones showing a man that was much more an agnostic than is commonly believed, especially in his later years. bachelor also speculates that Gautama was educated in the Persian-controlled university city of Taxila, near modern-day Islamabad, and learned philosophical ideas from as far afield as the Greek thinker Heraclitus.

[toddaa]

13. My wife dragged me to UU church

And I found I love it. Don't know about spirituality, but I've found I love ritualism and being in a community of people who share common values. Plus, being able to be open about atheism without being judged is something I've never experienced before, coming from a fundamentalist background. Not to say I haven't had some serious hard core arguments with other UUers, especially when I stand my ground on existential nihilism, but the arguments are over ideas and never personal. My son has Aspergers and UU religious education is really helpful for him to develop socialization tools. Plus, being in a community with significant number of LGBT members, is also important to me as a parent.

The oneness of existence is something that even I, a hardcore militant fundamentalist atheist, recognizes.

[ZombieHorde]

14. There is nothing wrong with joining non-harmful clubs.

As far as I can tell, if a UU church did something bad, that UU church would be an exception. I have never heard of a UU church which spends its resources trying to attack the civil rights of women or gay people.

[toddaa]

16. I thought I'd hate it

But my first serious interaction was with a longtime member, who blows raspberries everytime the word god was used. She also is quite open about her opinion that most UU ministers are, and I quote, full of shit. I asked her why she belongs to an church led by people who are full of shit and she said because that's the whole point of UU. Any group that welcomes and values a person with her mindset can't be all bad.

Kind of ruins my militant, fundamentalist atheist credibility, though, doesn't it?

[ZombieHorde]

18. "Kind of ruins my militant, fundamentalist atheist credibility, though, doesn't it?"

I won't tell if you don't.

[cleanhippie]

22. We recently joined a UU Fellowship as well.

And we love it! The "minister" came over to our house when we decided to officially join to get to know us a bit better. Come to find out, she has a masters degree in theology and considers herself an atheist. Every time we go there, my mind gets blown! For the Sunday service at Halloween, the coven of wiccans that attend the church performed their Halloween-harvest ceremony for the congregation. Very cool, as I had never witnessed a wiccan ceremony before.

[Odin2005]

26. I go to a UU church and love it.

We have an interesting mix of Atheists/Non-Believers, Wiccans, Neo-Pagans, Buddhists, and Deistic types.

[Iggo]

23. If spirituality is believing in spirits, the Yes (for me).

[GreenEyedLefty]

24. Atheism has requirements?

I don't like people telling me that what I choose to feel or believe is right or wrong. That's why I'm an atheist in the first place.

[awoke_in_2003]

27. yes, imho. nt