Tell me what you think, really!

[FrenchieCat]

In reference to the Afghanistan War business, I'm starting to get mighty suspicious as to the so very vocal reasons for the outrage about this forgotten 8 year old war, and Obama fulfilling his campaign promise in reference to it.

What I see here on DU are folks not only treating Obama's troop escalation/surge as though it was the end of the entire world, but acting like the words that he clearly spoke on the campaign trail weren't said enough time to be remembered.

Now, I'm not a war liking person at all. I didn't "like" what was done following 9/11 (I'd prefer a police action), and I hated the Iraq war to a point of putting more passion into my involvement against it than I did into my marriage for an intensely long period (thank you Hubby!).... But facts are facts, and it is a fact, that I certainly have tolerated the Afghanistan war over the past 8 years, and have not had the same reaction against it as I did against the Iraq War. Perhaps it is because I am not a Pacifist in the strict sense, although I don't watch movies if multiple murders are the central activity of the plot, and I don't do Westerns or War movies at all (other than that classic; the Great Escape). In other words, I don't understand any need for senseless killing, nor do I understand why so many humans seem so capable of making war.

I will also say that sometimes war is required, although I'm not quite sure if Afghanistan actually was, even if it was more justified than certainly Iraq. My Mom was born during WWII in France, and she has told me many stories. I lost Aunts and uncles in that war, and growing up in France, going to school there, my education was filled with stories of both World Wars. I was always somewhat frustrated with the notion that France didn't fight back more ferociously against Hitler's invading army, because it is true, that in Paris, they laid down pretty much....just like that. I thought that if The French would have been more "warlike", it might have saved many lives, instead of leaving us exporting our Jewish, Gypsy and Gay population over to Germany....but maybe not. I might not be here at this instant to say anything, had history taken a different turn, and had my Mom been a casualty.

In addition, I grew up seeing close up the direct results of the colonization and flight from Vietnam, war with Algeria, and the bloodless independence given to many of France's former colonies both in the Caribbean Islands, Africa in the 60s.

Anyways....I say all of this because I have already laid down my marker on this War in Afghanistan. Not because, as others say, I'm nothing but an Obama cheerleader, but because of some of what I describe above, and because he certainly said throughout his campaign (as did all of the other Dems going back to Kerry) how he would more or less handle it, so, it wasn't news at all.

It is my strong belief that anyone with a fair mind, who would actually bother to make the calculation and consider the context, could conclude that Obama actually has probably made as wise a decision as could have been anticipated, under the circumstances. He's gonna give this a try for many strategic reasons that are much more complex than I would dare even guess, to attempt to bring things under some control there in Afghanistan (as well as Pakistan) prior to doing what really has to be done; us withdrawing.

So the question is, why if fair minds could understand his position (even if they don't agree with it), is the vitriol so intense, and so shockingly blind of any facts as to the limitations of this one man......geopolitically, as well as keeping in mind what he has said over and over again?

I hope that those who are still reading this don't take this the wrong way.....
but there is something inside me that has decided that it is racism that makes folks
go out of their way to disrespect this man to the extreme extent that I have witnessed it. I know that there are other elements as well, like folks that are true Pacifist, folks that simply dislike Barack Obama for his stance on other issues, like Marriage Equality or some even, that never got over the Primaries. There are also those who are so far to the Left that they never even voted for him, period....not for who he is, but for what he stands for in their eyes; this society and all that it represents. Still, considering that all were fairly warned, and many still voted for him, I can go away believing that yes, his race does come into play, consciously or otherwise.

So yeah, I'm saying that I do think that some folks simply can't get used to the idea of having a Black persona commanding our troops into battle, which yes, could result in a very possible loss of lives. I think, that for some, this is where equality parts. Don't get me wrong, I don't think everyone is like that, but I fear there are enough out in the Liberal world (can't talk about the GOP, cause I don't give a shit about them), who really have a problem with this, even if they don't totally realize it. That coupled with certainly quite a bit of Bush war weariness is the only explanations that I can come up with for the extreme reactions that his ordering 30K troops have had, even when all other things are considered. I don't believe that they see him as worthy of the task. They don't believe that this is part of his job description, although it has been of every other President before him.

The worse of it is that it is a pity that I feel this way......
but I can't offer any other reason for the disrespect, the lack of any trust, the absence of any benefit of the doubt, the omission of any political and geopolitical reality, as well the fact that he can't even say the words 9/11 (although the war is undeniably linked to it), as though it was his sin.

Anyways, this has weighted on my mind, and this is not something one can say elsewhere, unless one is ready to be crucified, or at least tarred and feathered, and beaten with the lash of many tongues till one is Black and Blue......so I thought I deposited here, and get some reactions from you guys; my fellow Black DUers and whomever else might lurk on this site.


Thanks! :hi:

[Fire1]

1. Hey Frenchie! Great post and interesting read. I've seen

the same posts and positions to which you're referring. Vitriol to the point of contradiction and nonsensical jibberish. I was honestly astounded at some of the trash that's been written. I don't romanticize war either and I've not agreed with how the u.s. portrays itself throughout history. But it's the willful or fake ignorance and surprise about THIS issue in Afghanistan that pisses me off. Everyone knows he didn't start the war in Iraq and they spent eight years pissin and moanin about it. I think what he is doing will finally bring some kind of relief to those people, if only for a short while. At least, we can say, we were there, we fixed what we fucked up, we trained, we eliminated who needed to be eliminated (Taliban) and now, we can leave responsibly with the country in tact. Of course, all will be for naught without the cooperation of Pakistan and there is always the possibility that the Taliban will recruit and regroup. But at least we did our part.

I don't look at this as a WAR. Not even a "winable" war. I gathered from his speech that this is an exit strategy. One with increased forces to accomplish the objectives as quickly as possible and leave. All else, such as would you go or send your children, and I bet this, that and the other will happen, is total horse shit! And the next mother fucker who asks me some dumb shit like that will get a piece of my mind. No, I wouldn't go! I didn't volunteer to go to Vietnam and I wouldn't volunteer now! (I can just see me at 5ft.2 and all of 125lbs soaking wet, carrying a damn rifle that weighs more than I do!) Secondly, I defy my son to sign up! I have invested too much money and too much time in getting him into college and on the right track to see him risk life and limb in any country. Besides, he is my ONLY child and my ex's ONLY son.

Now, in response to the REAL point of your OP, I haven't the slightest idea why these folks think the way they do but I can certainly understand your thinking. I don't think the men, women and children of Afganistan should have to pay for our initial fuck up under bush. If there was any protest against a war, it should have been THEN but that's water under the bridge. The damage has been done. So, the RESPONSIBLE thing to do, is send in the clean up crew, training crew, establish some kind of law and leave.

Sorry my rant post was so long, but I needed to get that off my chest.

[Number23]

2. For the life of me, I don't understand why you would ascribe any rational thought or discourse

to this place. This place is full of cracked out simians. I have had more intelligent, thoughtful and enjoyable conversations with my 3-year old; I have seen more reasonable thought amongst drunken schizophrenics; my 10-week old kitten is capable of more complex and nuanced understanding than 2/3 of the people here.

It always cracks me up to no end to see so many DUers pat themselves on the back about how "informed" and "intelligent" people are here. Many of the biggest loudmouths on this site have never seen or done ANYTHING and it shows with every word that they type. Their idealism (which I generally tend to think is a good thing) is overwhelmed by their ignorance. A recent poll in GD had Dennis Kucinich beating Obama in an imaginary 2012 primary. Need I say more???

I am not pro-war. I have seen firsthand alot of the suffering caused by US and Western imperialism and racism. But the fact remains that many, many Americans think that the war in Afghanistan was the war worth fighting -- that fact is irrefutable. People who marched in the street in protest of the war in Iraq support the war in Afghanistan; nations all over the world support the war in Afghanistan, including many nations whose governments loudly protested the war in Iraq. Obama spent weeks, enduring the criticisms of the Bill Kristols, Dick Cheneys and DUers of the world in order to come up with a plan of action that he felt would allow us to end this conflict and spare the people of Afghanistan as much as possible. I hate this war. The day that Western countries stop trying to "conquer" places of the world inhabited by the dark, the "uncivilized," and the un-Christian will be a glorious day indeed. But laying this at Obama's feet when it is UNDENIABLE that this is an unbearable situation that his predecessors and the majority of the world believed was a good idea is unconscionable. I take some comfort though, the main ones wailing and whining the most on this site have wailed and beaten their breasts so often about EVERY SINGLE THING that this man has done that their protests and criticisms carry about as much water as a penny with a hole in it.

[kwassa]

3. There are multiple issues here

1) DU doesn't accurately represent those who vote in the Democratic party, simply some of those who think they have something to say, and many with too much time on their hands to say it.

2) The Democratic Party is indeed a big tent. There are people on this site that I have little in common with other than we vote with the same party candidates. This site has been an education.

3) The real reason people participate on these sites is that they like to argue. I used to, but maybe I'm getting old, or just too picky. I'd like a little insight now and then. Those posts are here, but hard to find.

4) There are many Democrats that think they can just walk away from obligations created by Bush. Nice thought, but it doesn't work in the real world. I have very strong doubts about Afghanistan, which I think is an ungovernable country. The real conundrum is Pakistan, which can't govern or control a large section of it's country, though it is attempting to do so now in a belated attacks on South Waziristan. This once again reveals the limits of power.

The great illusion revived by the Bush administration is that if we are the world's greatest power, we can do anything we want. This is false. All power has limits, and I defy anyone to come up with a solution that is the mess called Pakistan. How do we collaborate with a country whose main intelligence organization is known to have many Taliban and Al Queda supporters? Pakistan doesn't agree with itself, in extreme ways.

5) The Personal Agenda. Obama should follow My Personal Agenda, Right Now! What's wrong with that man?

and then ..

6) Racism may play a part of it.

[FrenchieCat]

4. I've noticed that the real world doesn't play a part on DU.....

which is kind of scary. Everything is thought about in a vacuum,
like there's no media, no special interest; like there's nothing
that can't stop whatever a President wants to do, if he just pounds
his fist on the table. That may have been the case in reference to Bush,
but that's because he had his minions threatening the media,
and he was working for the special interest.
I don't ever want another President like that again.
That was more than I could ever take ever again.

One of the reasons that Obama still has decent approval ratings,
with all that is going on is because folks like him.....
Imagine if he started acting like Bush. Then he would be a one termer!

[HamdenRice]

5. I'm afraid I've lost respect for many, many posters for that reason

I could go into great length about how I feel about the level of discussion, but you've all already pretty much said it.

I'm not sure why the lack of intelligence and common sense manifested itself so much more strongly after the election but it did.

There is a large section of DU that is simply much, much less intelligent than the average person I encounter -- and I'm talking about from the university to the projects. I've never come across more magical thinking in my life than on this site.

[firedupdem]

6. I can't deal with those nuts. I've never followed politics very closely

until this election. I want to deal in facts with like minded people...most of the folks posting garbage have not a damn thing in common with me. They aren't even real to me any more. Just disruptive miserable people.

[quiet.american]

7. Frenchie, I've just had some red wine, & can't articulate too clearly :), but I'll try --

1) Full disclosure: I'm former USAF, and so perhaps have a different perspective on a CiC laying out a clear mission than some

2) It's stunning to see how all the "progressive" Dem talking heads were so eager to embrace the term "escalation" for Obama's announcement of his decision on Afghanistan, when all Bushco had to do was tell them that it was actually a "surge," and then, bim, bam, boom -- all started using Bushco's desired word -- "surge," yet Obama lays out a thoughtful, three-pronged mission, and "progressive" talking heads race to label it simply, "escalation."

3) In all the frothing-at-the-mouth pontificating I've seen on DU about Obama/Afghanistan, and on Maddow, Olbermann, etc., -- the outrage has been around "escalation," but I haven't seen anything that takes on point-by-point the mission that Obama laid out (perhaps someone did, and I missed it):

President Obama lays out the mission:

a) "The 30,000 additional troops that I'm announcing tonight will deploy in the first part of 2010 -- the fastest possible pace -- so that they can target the insurgency and secure key population centers. They'll increase our ability to train competent Afghan security forces, and to partner with them so that more Afghans can get into the fight. And they will help create the conditions for the United States to transfer responsibility to the Afghans.

b) Second, we will work with our partners, the United Nations, and the Afghan people to pursue a more effective civilian strategy, so that the government can take advantage of improved security.

c) Third, we will act with the full recognition that our success in Afghanistan is inextricably linked to our partnership with Pakistan.

These are the three core elements of our strategy: a military effort to create the conditions for a transition; a civilian surge that reinforces positive action; and an effective partnership with Pakistan."

I don't know if anyone else here is a fan of the "Foreign Affairs" quarterly journal, but listening to the President, it was clear to me he called in some of the best ideas that were presented in the Afghanistan-themed issue of the journal that came out in the July/August 2009 issue.

Secondly -- I'll say this: the fact that Obama gives the best damned, crisp, military-textbook salute of any CiC in the last 40 years that I've ever seen, told me more about his consideration of those under his command than any of his words needed to. That he took the time to learn how to properly salute means A LOT. That he went to Dover to meet the returning coffins of those who gave their lives means A LOT. That he sent his commanders/experts back to the drawing board to come up with solutions that included an exit strategy means a A LOT.

Lastly, I'll say this: In the media, I've noticed distinct instances of a lack of respect towards the President (referring to him as "Obama," while they stumbled all over themselves to refer to the former pResident as "the President;" Joe Wilson's lying "You lie!"etc. -- but, when I see the military reaction to him -- the admiration, respect, and just wanting to reach out to him -- I'm encouraged that the president has their support.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen the Afghanistan conflict ended yesterday. But, having been a supporter of Obama since before the days when he was debating Alan Keyes -- I know his hallmark is to make extremely pragmatic, thoughtful decisions on the matters that come before him. In that, he didn't disappoint me on his decision regarding what to do about Afghanistan.

[Number23]

8. Fantastic post.

And thanks for the feedback from a former military perspective. I think alot of the wailing and frothing here on DU over this issue was just another excuse to bash the man, personally.

The war in Afghanistan was the ONE war that had support from the majority of Americans and the majority of the world. As I said upthread, folks who marched in the streets protesting the war in Iraq supported the war in Afghanistan. Like you, I wish it was over yesterday but we went in there and (oblivious to the history of that region and the legions of other "superpowers" who got their asses handed to them by the Afghan warriors) decided to tear the place apart before we decided to promptly abandon it for a sick, immoral, illegal war in Iraq.

Obama is drawing troops out of Iraq and focusing on Afghanistan. Not only is that what he TOLD people he would do, it is a strategy that the majority of Americans agreed with. But suddenly, now that he's doing exactly what he said he'd do, "progressives" are howling, or WERE howling anyway. I noticed it's gotten very quiet on this issue now.

[quiet.american]

10. 'Preciate it, Number 23. nt

[Diamonique]

9. Great post!

You've hit on several things that the naysayers seem to dismiss, for some reason.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... President Obama is exactly who/what this country needs at this point in time. We're lucky to have him.

[quiet.american]

11. Amen -- and thanks. :) nt

[FrenchieCat]

12. Great Post, quiet.american....

and glad to see you here! you always make me smile! :hi: