Powell vs. Clinton in New York -- how would you vote?

[HamdenRice]

The NY tabloids have stories to the effect that the republican party is urging Colin Powell to return to his native New York and challenge Hillary Clinton for the Senate seat in New York.

I know this sounds like a horrible thing to say as a lifelong yellow dog Democrat, but I would have a really, really hard time making that decision if he does. I might actually vote for Powell, if this comes to pass.

I don't like Hillary Clinton and I don't think she has done much for New York. I really am opposed to nepotism, which is the basis of her career.

Powell is so moderate as a republican (except his unforgiveable support for the war), on affirmative action, aid to Africa, addressing the AIDS crisis, using diplomacy instead of war, that I would probably vote for him.

It is important also to break out of this outrageous post-Reconstruction condition of having so few blacks in the Senate. I believe Powell might beat Clinton.

My main concern is that he is a loyal person and he might loyally vote with the republican block in the Senate. On the other hand, a guy who thinks the bush junta is a group of "fucking crazies" -- Powells own words -- might be a moderating influence on that increasingly bizarro party.

Any African American New Yorkers here? if not what would you do? Anyone want to convinve me that I'm being demented?

[qanda]

1. At one point I had a lot of respect for Colin Powell

But after his display at the UN I wouldn't vote for him to be the town's Dog Catcher.

[Pallas180]

4. Have to agree. He sold his soul to the company store. If he had

capital as the most respected man in America, he threw it away lying for his master, again and again.

Never to be trusted again.

[qanda]

5. I'm almost starting to feel like it was a conspiracy

To castrate the man and make him lose the respect that he once had. He was once a distinguished and honored man and now he appears weak and pitiful. When I looked at the toons and saw how he was being portrayed, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the man-- but I still wouldn't vote for him.

[msgadget]

2. Please tell me there'd be an Independent alternative

'cause I wouldn't want to vote for either.

I'd like for Powell to retire, rest, write a book and go out on the lecture circuit to regain that which is best in him. I agree we need more blacks in the Senate but let's find someone else. I feel the man has been misused enough. It'd be a step down for him anyway.

And, I don't know what the big deal about Hillary is beyond her surviving eight hellish years at the hands of that vast right wring conspiracy.

But, I ALWAYS vote so - absent a third party - I'd...damn, I don't know. I'd write in a candidate.

:crazy:
Gee, I broke a sweat over that one, hope it doesn't come to fruition. The Post threw that out, right?

[Tomee450]

3. There was a time

when I might have been willing to vote for Powell but not now.

[jmm]

6. I've always thought of him and McCain the same way

People like to look at them as enlightened Republicans because of their occasional moments of clarity but they are first and foremost loyal to their party. I'm not from New York but I wouldn't vote for him. The party doesn't want a moderating force. They want him to stay high profile to appear more diverse and inclusive to the moderates in the party.

[msgadget]

7. Wow, that's a great analogy!

They are similar in that regard. Occasionally they appear completely about their jobs of service to the people and then you see them on TV (maybe standing in front of the UN or the Republican Convention) completely touting the party line.

I have more respect for Mr. Powell, however, because I don't think he'd have stayed loyal if his family and war record were attacked the way McCain's were.

[angee_is_mad]

30. He was attacked

His position has been marginalized with Rumsfeld and Condi taking over. When bush was trying to get support for the war he trotted out Baker, who was and is retired.

As my nephew would say, Powell got PUnked!!!! He has no clout in the whitehouse and has basically been laid off from his job. It has been widely reported that he wanted to stay as Sec of State, but look what happened!

I'm not from NY, but I was against Thomas being on the Supreme Court and I would be against Powell as NY Senator. I would always vote for a white man who would look after my interests before I would vote for a blk man who can't look at himself in the mirror.

When I see Powell, that is what I think. He looks like a deeply troubled man who has made a bargain with the devil and knows there is no out for him. Look at him now versus when he was in the Clinton administration. I bet he can not remember the last time he got a peaceful night's sleep.

[Robeson]

8. Powell works for the Corporate and Military Oligarchy that rules...

...this nation. Forget his skin color. It has nothing to do with who he works for, and who owns him. His entire carreer has been made up of serving their interest. Of course, that is not to say that Clinton, to some degree, doesn't work for those same oligarchies.

[msgadget]

9. That's the way I see it,

except for shading Clinton's involvement. I put her all the way in the 'speak one way, vote another' category. And, I have some hope that Powell will be able to see clearer from a distance.

What IS it about her that excites people so much? Is it just her husband?

[Robeson]

10. You got me...

...and if our party can't come up with something better than one of these two candidates, i.e. an overt Republican, and one, seemingly in all but name, then we're in worse trouble than I thought - and believe me, right now, I think we're in a lot of trouble.

[Kahuna]

11. Hillary is a Democrat. So, I would vote for her. Each party has a

distinct ideology. I vote for the party ideology. Not the person.

[TroubleMan]

12. Mai Lai, Iran Conta, Iraq War - Is that the guy you want representing you?

I don't like Hillary that much - waaaayyy too conservative for me.

However Powell:

1. Tried to cover up Mai Lai.

2. Was involved in Iran Contra.

3. Was the Black Face make-up to bush's Al Jolson these last four years.

....

He's got a bad history on human rights, despite his rhetoric about AIDS in Africa, and some other things he "says" he's so concerned about. He's been a power player for a long time....how much good has in done in that time? Compare it to how much bad he's done, tried to cover up, or been involved in.

[Robeson]

13. You hit that on the head...

"Was the Black Face make-up to bush's Al Jolson these last four years."

Good analogy.

[FrenchieCat]

14. Colin Powell

went to the U.N. and presented "cartoons" as evidence of WMD in Iraq. It was then that he became a caricature himself.

He sold his soul to the company store.

[msgadget]

15. And, being a minority, the other side thinks he's teflon but he made the

mistake of showing he was capable of individual thought from time to time so I doubt they'll trust him to run for office with their support. It'd make a very interesting race though, no?

[Chovexani]

16. Fuck Colin Powell

I would never, ever vote for him. Ever.

I'm a black New Yorker and while I have issues with Hillary I would still vote for her over Powell. Not even having to hold my nose to do it.

The Bush junta might have been "a group of fucking crazies", and he allowed himself to be used and trotted out by those fucking crazies and got up in front of the whole world and lied for them and carried out their agenda, so what does that make him?

Fuck Colin Powell.

[propagandafreegal]

26. Word nm

[HamdenRice]

17. What if, what if, what if ....past and present

A lot of interesting responses. I read an op ed somewhere last week that said that when Powell resigned as chair of the Joint Chiefs, if he had decided to join the Democrats rather than the repugs, we would be celebrating the inauguration of President Powell for his second term. That's the first "what if".

I guess the one factor about Powell that both partly redeems him and condemns him is that every major decision he has made until recently has been based on loyalty. His policy preferences have always been democratic, but he chose the repugs apparently because they had promoted him and he felt he had to be loyal. He joined this admin because of loyalty to bush I. And he presented the bush II war case to the UN even though he knew it was wrong out of loyalty.

Powell, the good soldier.

But in the last year, he has been leaking like crazy -- that the bush people are "fuc*ing crazies", and even compared them to Nazi stormtroopers (can't find exact quote), and said their main guy in the state dept is the dumbest man in the world. It seems to me that he is giving the following message: I am loyal because all public servants have to be, but I am leaking my real beliefs. It seems to me that he is in an entirely different category from Rice, who has truly drunk the cool aide.

Fair enough if your view is "f*** Powell" for all the damage he has at least faciliated.

But how would you feel if this "what if" occurs: Once he is out of public position and no longer is bound by loyalty, he tells all -- from faked intelligence to foreign influence at the Pentagon, from war crimes to abu graib, from 9/11 LIHOP to stolen election in Fla and Ohio.

Would your view of Powell change if he does this? I know it sounds far fetched but the guy appears desperate to salvage his long term reputation.

[Kolesar]

18. I never "got" the TV-military love-fest that was the 1991 Iraq War

Maybe I got home too late to watch Colin's gloriousness on TV on the 6 o'clock news, or that may have been the period when I just did not watch TV. In any case, I never got that positive vibe that so many people got from General Powell. Soon he was writing best sellers and was the talk of the town. To me, he was no different than any other general.

It could be that I was bitter and disrespectful of anything associated with the Reagan and Bush administrations. I did not even want to give them credit for winning a war. I had quit the Navy and quit singing the national anthem when Reagan became president.

[HamdenRice]

19. Interesting point -- but it was not Powell who was on TV

It was Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf (sp) who was the "face" of the Iraq War. Powell was not really that visible during the war, so your recollection is correct.

But a good analogy is that Powell in the Iraq War was to Schwartzkopf as Gen. George Marshall in WWII was to Eisenhower. Schwartkopf had almost complete operating autonomy in Iraq I.

But I think the reason the Iraq war soooo boosted Powell's stature was that the overall strategy was pure "Powell Doctrine" -- overwhelming force, international coalition, goals clearly explained to the American public and the garnering of clear expressions of public and congressional support, and an exit strategy already designated before the war began. In other words, the Powell doctrine was the opposite of Vietnam, and ironically the opposite of Iraq II.

Although Powell was not the face of the Iraq I war, after the "victory," TV commentators talked in hushed, awed tones after the war that the victory was a vindication of Powell's vision of war, which would guide the US for the forseeable future. Again, he was like the Marshall, not the Eisenhower of Iraq I.

It even made sense that he would come out of retirement to be the wise, visionary secretary of state, just as Marshall had been to Truman, when Marshall envisioned the Marshall Plan. You may remember that Powell came into office with pretty ambitious (largely Democratic) plans for a world order that would include massive improvements in the developing world, especially Africa, and the removal of sanctions from Iraq.

It is so sad and bizarre that he let himself get sucked into this quagmire, which is the complete ruination of everything he had become famous for.

Powell has to be the most tragic figure in American politics since LBJ.

[msgadget]

20. You wanna see sad?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=89265&mesg_id=89265

I'm in awe Hamden, had to get out my history reference. I remember when Schwartzkopf ruled during Iraq I but never saw the parallel. Thank you.

[Kolesar]

21. Wow. That was very insightful.

Interesting parallels there between Powell and Marshall and Powell and LBJ. Now I understand why I don't remember General Powell being on TV at the time.

[HamdenRice]

22. Forgot to mention Powell's position at the time ...

Powell was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time of Iraq I, which is the equivalent of Gen. Marshall's position -- Chief of Staff of the Army. (The purpose of creating the position, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, after WWII, was to bring together the Chiefs of Staff of the branches of the armed forces.) So he was Schwarzkopf's commanding officer, but the US armed forces have a tradition of tremendous autonomy for theater commanders.

Just as Gen. Marshall gave Eisenhower, as supreme commander for the European theater of war overall operational command, Powell gave Schwartzkopf overall command of the Iraq war theater as I believe Commander in chief of the Central (ie middle eastern) command.

[Kolesar]

23. roger that

message received

[mandyky]

24. 3rd party

I am disgusted with Hillary and Powell after his UN pack of lies. I
would vote for anything over the two. I supported Hillary's run in 00, but her and Bill lost me when they screwed with Howard Dean.

PS I ain't black, but I'm an Upstate NYer born and bred. I am curious about how the AA community feel about this one though.

[propagandafreegal]

25. Powell and I don't share the same political ideology nm

[Catherine Vincent]

27. One word comes to mind when I think of Colin Powell....

Overrated.

[itzamirakul]

28. I am thoroughly disgusted with Hillary, too...

but I don't think that would make me vote for Powell unless he came out with some very strong anti-Bush statements.

Mayor Bloomberg in NYC is beginning his campaign for re-elction. His likely opponent will be Freddie Ferrer, an Hispanic whom I supported the last time, but he lost in a filthy primary. Bloomber, who only embraced Republicanism AFTER being unable to run on the Democratic ticket, is now seen to be distancing himself as far as possible from Bush, et al.in order to entice more Democrats to his side.

[msgadget]

29. Bloomberg is suddenly thinking before speaking.

He supported Schumer and hasn't insulted anyone in at least a few days. But, I don't get why Powell was in NYC on New Year's Eve though...

[itzamirakul]

31. Frankly, I think it may be because

Bloomberg is courting the black vote in the city. At least, that is what I heard. Last time, the overwhelming majority of black voters supported Ferrer.

[msgadget]

32. That's possible,

I read he doesn't want to alienate dems in general. He hasn't the personality, really, to sway anyone but will be judged on his gaffs and progress in the city. He came in acting like an insensitive one-termer. I wonder how the closing of the fire houses will play in his re-election bid.

Is Sharpton running for something? I heard he was but just won't let myself believe it's for mayor.