Holder: US is nation of cowards on racial matters

[Number23]

Snip:

"Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards," Holder said.

Race issues continue to be a topic of political discussion, but "we, as average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about race."

Article here

This topic has apparently been met with a great big resounding :boring: here. A few brave souls attempted a discussion:

Here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5081921#5081946
And here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x426422\

Holder's words sound like basic common sense to me but either they still make people uncomfortable, or they need to be a whoooole lot more controversial to get people talking.

I grew up in the SWATs and didn't even know a white person my own age until I started college. My entire experience with white people was what I saw on television or the movies and my view of them was NOT pretty. :) Now I live in an environment where I can go an entire week without seeing another black person. Life is a trip. :)

[Raineyb]

1. Eric Holder is absolutely 100% correct.

Just look at what happens when race is discussed here and see how squeamish some white people get to know that's the truth.

Although, I do notice that these same people have the balls to tell me that they know racism when they see it better than I do (not a verbatim quote naturally.)

Regards

[Number23]

3. This is why I lmao whenever I see a post from someone here extolling the virtues of the Dem party

That racists and bigots only dwell amongst Repubs. That the Dem party is full of hard-working idealists who shun racism and treat everyone as equals.

I lmbao every single time I see that.

[Raineyb]

18. The only reason why I'm a registered Dem is because in my state

there are closed primaries and I need to do something to have a say in who goes to the general election. But I'm a lot more left leaning than most mainstream Dems and frankly, I would prefer not being registered to any party so that the Dems would actually have to 1. court my vote and 2. keep their promises. It doesn't do us all that much good to know the Dems take us for granted and the Republicans don't pay us any mind at all.

Regards

[kwassa]

2. There is no incentive for whites to talk about race.

They lose nothing by not discussing it, and most won't. Many, if not most, know little about the history of race and racism in America.

I think it works best in quality diversity training programs in various organizations. To have a serious discussion about race requires someone with skills being the referee and moderator, and the element of a little force for both sides to be there. It also requires study, because, as I said, many don't know the history.

[Number23]

4. "They lose nothing by not discussing it, and most won't."

You are absolutely right. Many don't want to acknowledge what's happened in the past because I think then that will lead to some really uncomfortable questions about how they might have benefited from the racial oppression of others.

My mother is an attorney specializing in conflict and dispute resolution, including diversity training. The minute she would walk into the room -- a black woman with dreadlocks and a J.D. -- she said you could almost HEAR some of the white folks in the room tensing up. I think education, particularly of this country's history is important, but so is a damned open mind. Without the latter, the first won't make a bit of difference anyway.

[Brewman_Jax]

5. I'm not sure "coward" is the right term

I think "stupid" might be more accurate. There seems to be a few basic lines when it comes to talking about race: "It's class, not race" or "Racism won't go away because you people won't stop talking about it" or "Racism is almost gone because I/my family have done so much to end it" or "All that is in the past" and the like. White people will not talk about white privilege or the racial caste society in which we live, but have no trouble talking about how great black people have it. :eyes: Ignorance of history is not pretty.

[Number23]

6. Damn, Brew! It's like you reached inside of my head before you posted.

The only thing you left off is how the discussions of racism almost ALWAYS turn into one about sexism here on DU. That seems to be the only -ism some here either feel comfortable discussing or the only one they think still matters.

[Brewman_Jax]

7. Race and racism

have 2 separate concepts by the different groups. Black people see racism as a total social caste system based on race with white people at the top of the social hierarchy, white people see racism as individual acts of meanness by ignorant people. With such a simplistic view, conversations on race between races will always be rather dicey.

[noiretextatique]

9. exactly

I'm posting in s few threads now about the NY Post cartoon and the argument a few are pushing is that if the intent is not malevolent, it's not really racism. The other line I keep hearing is that racists are idiots, not "regular" people.
I see racism as social conditioning that affects everyone whereas the people I'm in discussion with see racism as a character flaw.
Discussing racism at DU is like explaining quantum physics to a two-year old. And this IS an enlightened space.

[Raineyb]

20. Indeed. There's a story about how black workers who had gone to Arkansas

to help restore power after that storm were greeted with racism by the ingrates in the county. Someone was going on I didn't really pay much attention until I noticed this phrase.

"Minorities tend to cluster"

My reply was rather pithy I must say. "'Minorities tend to cluster' Really? You don't say. Gee I wonder why."

Between redlining, whites only clauses, white flight and people being run out of homes when they manage to get into these all white enclaves the reasons for clustering would be obvious. Yet said clustering is thrown out as a matter of fact with the reasoning behind it being a complete mystery. "Well minorities tend to cluster" (for whatever reasons which have nothing to do with being kept out of neighborhoods no doubt.)

:shrug:

Regards

[SemperEadem]

28. well put. You are so on point.

Black people see racism as a total social caste system based on race with white people at the top of the social hierarchy, white people see racism as individual acts of meanness by ignorant people.


brilliant!

[Number23]

8. Just had another thread sent to me with some very, very innnnnteresting comments

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3746307

Props to Karenina for trying to hold it down!

[Karenina]

12. That exchange cracked me up!

I guess I didn't habba rispekful nuf tone posin' such a question. :rofl:

But SERIOUSLY, KIDDIKINS!!! Tell your ol' Tante K. as if she's done lost her mind and don't already know, WHAT DEMOGRAPHIC IS VITAL IN HOLDING THE CLASS STRUCTURE IN PLACE???

Just asking. O8)

[Number23]

15. Exactly!

WHAT DEMOGRAPHIC IS VITAL IN HOLDING THE CLASS STRUCTURE IN PLACE???

:fistbump:

Trying to get some of the folks here to answer that question honestly is like trying to pull out a tiger's tooth with your bare hands when he's wide awake and looking you dead in the face.

[Fire1]

10. I'd like to inject something here, if I may. I have a problem with

the 'over simplication' of this issue and I resent this topic being 'trivialized.' imo, on a message board. I commend those who've attempted to 'set the record straight,' but 'honest' discussion will result in people not only being uncomfortable, but defensive. I think this kind of discussion can only take place face to face.

[fortyfeetunder]

11. Meet the Press today (22 Feb)

I was listening to MTP this morning on the radio when the discussion of Holder's speech came up.

What came across to me when I heard the discussion was --

What Holder said was a poor choice of words. The suggested words -- Americans are uncomfortable when it comes to discussing race. Same idea but different impact.

My spin on it -- the AA community has a heritage of speaking truth before peace, a concept contrary to the majority culture (peace before truth). And AA's are certainly not afraid of discussing controversial topics or confronting an issue. There Holder was being candid in his choice of words instead of being ambiguous, when looking at the context of his entire speech.

I think Holder is right in using those words. And I think he used the right words to get the impact from the rest of the nation.

[Fire1]

13. I think he chose the 'right' words, too and by so doing, knew

the kind of reaction he would get. It's that 'truth before peace' that is the problem for the rest of America.

[Number23]

14. Truth before peace vs. peace before truth

I think in that one sentence you absolutely hit the nail on the head. I think that you are EXACTLY right.

I also agree that Holder is using the right words. The reason that the word "coward" has so much power in this instance is because it is the one that most accurately describes the situation. Yes, Americans are not "comfortable" discussing race; yes it makes us "uneasy" but these two instances combined with the overall avoidance of this issue in just about every fact of our society is what makes us "cowards." No other word will truly suffice.

[Fire1]

16. The 'truth' sometimes hurts and I don't think AA are the

cowards. Open dialogue on this subject will ultimately require honesty and alot of prior knowledge. You'd be astounded at the ignorance (or maybe not.) Many of us (in my generation) have had this conversation with 'the rest of America' many times in our lives and it has proven futile. There is 'guilt' involved and nobody wants to be blamed. I have heard every rationalization in the book and trust me, it is exhausting, to say the least. The really sad part, is that, NOTHING CHANGES.

[Number23]

17. It is exhausting, isn't it??

You find yourself giving the same reasons over and over again for why something is offensive or discriminatory. And you hear the same excuses over and over again for why it isn't and you're just being "sensitive."

One thing that Noire and a few others that post in this forum have tried to touch on is this idea that some DUers have that racists are idiots or somehow evil. Racism is not necessarily borne of idiocy and is not always even DELIBERATE. I think the fact that there are so many here who want to believe that racism is a deliberate, evil act in their mind absolves them or others from taking responsibility from their own actions, or even inaction.

I always use the example of an office that doesn't hire a black person or an Arab or some other person of color because they're not sure if they'll "fit in" and don't want them to be "uncomfortable" as an example of a non-deliberate racist act. Yeah, from a person of color's perspective, there is no doubt that it's an act of racism but some whites have said that it could be construed as an act of "consideration" until I get them to see things from that person's perspective who was denied the job. When it comes to race, I've found that few things are obvious, even the f*cking obvious. :)

[Fire1]

19. Exactly. Instead of seeing it for what it is, they become either

defensive or turn it into a 'difference in perception,' in which case, we're off and running into this never ending circle to nowhere.

[Karenina]

21. They are, for the time being, the dominant culture

their power structures rule and there is NO REQUIREMENT for them to really get it.

[Raineyb]

22. And plenty sure pitch a fit when someone asks them to consider the notion. n/t

Regards

[Number23]

23. "For the time being"

Oh yeah. :)

[fortyfeetunder]

24. As long as there is an inability to confront such issues...

Then we will never have a meaningful cross-cultural dialogue.

There is a population in the majority culture that is conflict-adverse. Afraid to speak. Gloss over. Dismissive. Condescending. Non-confrontational. Those attitudes support cowardly behaviour.

OTOH thank goodness for people like Molly Ivins, Ann Richards, Helen Thomas, Sen. Kennedy. Barney Frank Those are the people that I consider exceptions to my observation. I am sure there are others.

[Karenina]

25. WE, AMERICANS OF COLOUR, ARE NOT THE PROBLEM

when it comes to "discussing" these issues. WE don't vote against our own interests and I NEVER IN MY LIFE heard of folks pickin' up lock, stock and barrel to relocate cuz a white family moved in next door.

[fortyfeetunder]

26. How about if people of color could help solve the problem?

Maybe we can't change the majority culture, but we can create an environment to make confronting the issues a meaningful and positive experience.

(but then again, it would mean we are able to get the others receptive to that environment)

[SemperEadem]

29. people of color solving the problem....

that's like saying "how about if we use 2 wheels to get the car down the street?"

it isn't going to be a meaningful and positive experience if you have a group of people who resent
even having to listen to what's being said, let alone engaging openly and honestly in the discussion
without turning the whole thing around to "it's not my fault you can't do any better in your life..."

[Number23]

27. Preach it, Tante K!

I NEVER IN MY LIFE heard of folks pickin' up lock, stock and barrel to relocate cuz a white family moved in next door.

You speak the truth!

[Brewman_Jax]

30. Tim Wise's article regarding Holder's comments

http://www.counterpunch.org/wise02262009.html

From the article: It was all too predictable that Attorney General Eric Holder would be attacked for his recent remarks about race in America. To suggest that the nation is still haunted by the specter of racism is unacceptable it seems, especially since, with the election of President Obama, we have ostensibly entered the "post-racial" era.

But in truth, the nation's chief law enforcement officer deserves criticism more for what he didn't say than for what he did.

Specifically, Holder blamed personal cowardice for our racial divide, rather than institutionalized inequities, thereby minimizing his own Department's role in solving the problem; and he blamed everyone (and thus no one in particular) for being cowards, thereby letting white Americans--who have always been the ones least willing to engage the subject--off our uniquely large hook.

This combination of power-obliviousness (ignoring discrimination and unequal access to resources, while focusing merely on attitudes) and color-blindness (suggesting that everyone is equally at fault and equivalently unwilling to discuss racism) is a popular lens through which to view these matters. Indeed, the Oscar-winning film "Crash" was based almost entirely on these two tropes. But such a lens distorts our vision, and obscures true understanding of the phenomenon being observed.

[Karenina]

31. The man GETS IT.

[cyndensco]

32. Empowerer made an interesting observation in a post last week regarding Holder's statement.

S/he nailed it with this one:

And while we're on the topic, it should also be noted that when a black person says that "America is a nation of cowards when it comes to discussing race," it is not a personal attack on white people - unless one believes that "America" and "white people" are synonymous. When Eric Holder made this comment, he was clearly not singling out white people - he was talking about ALL of us. So their whining about how AG Holder supposedly "insulted the people {he} wants to talk to" and "call{ed} us cowards" is a rather bizarre complaint, dripping with entitlement and notions of white supremacy. Buchanan and Barnicle complaining about Eric Holder's criticism of Americans equating to a direct attack on white people says much more about their worldview than they probably intended.

I felt Holder was talking to all of us and recognized myself as being one who "clusters" and avoids race discussions with white people. I do not consider myself cowardly, just tired.

But, as Empowerer so eloquently noted, my opinion is unimportant. Holder was referring to Americans....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8214227

[Number23]

33. It was interesting how the Pat Buchanons of the world AUTOMATICALY

equated that statement to mean "white people are cowards." Holder specifically mentioned "Americans" but to some of our countrymen, that apparently only refers to the white members of our citizenry.

But no one should have been surprised. In addition to possessing phenomenal amounts of racial fear and paranoia, the Buchanons in our country have also been bolstered by more than 400 years of depictions of Americans as being almost exclusively blue-eyed and blonde.