Shooter game characteristics I'd like to see. Does it exist? (Long)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

I'd like to see a first person shooter, for online multiplayer, that lacks the "unrealism" problems I see with the most popular ones...

I used to play a lot of Quake II online and had fun, but when I actually "spectated" or watched others play, it looked stupid to me, a bunch of people running around like crazy, jumping around like bunnies and blasting each other with rocket and railgun shots.

In the little bit of Counterstrike I played, I was impressed that the internet code was silky smooth and relatively lag free, but I still didn't like the fact that players could jump so much. It seemed very unrealistic.

I just finished FarCry singleplayer (which I LOVED), but in multiplay the default speed the characters move around seems again too fast to me, at least for spectating purposes, if you want the game to be realistic. At least the "stamina bar" limits the amount of jumping you can do. But I feel the "normal" speed of the character corresponds to what I'd expect of people moving at "sprint" speed, again requiring stamina.

My feeling is, that by making characters so hard to hit by just moving around so fast and/or jumping continuously, it makes the game "unrealistic" because the power of the weapons is relatively deemphasized compared to constant fast movement, and extreme emphasis on low ping and hardware, and mouse aiming skills.

There will always be a skill component, but in a real life "shooter" scenario, think about the speed a soldier would actually move. Because it would be relatively easy for enemies to aim and shoot them with assault rifles as well as sniper etc., moving with caution, and taking cover, as well as squad tactics when applicable, would make you behave completely differently than the way people "typically" behave in online shooter games. I wonder how often a real firefight would result in two people "circle strafing" around each other with guns blazing. Pretty rare I'd think.

For whatever reason, of the games I've played, the one that had the most "realistic" feel to me in terms of character motion was Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear. Characters moved at what seemed to be a "realistic" speed and there was either no or very little jumping. The problem in online play was that the way the game was coded, coop and other multiplay was laggy, unlike Counterstrike. I like the way that the pace of that game, the realistic player movement, and the fact that if you died, your character was out of the scenario, made the game feel like I was immersed in a tense movie scene. I felt that, if properly done, here was a type of game that, if being watched by someone who was NOT a gamer, who didn't play that game, might find compelling to watch. A movie scene that someone was "playing out".

So I guess what I'd like is a game that plays and "feels" the way Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear did for me, but with the excellent network/internet coding of Counterstrike.

Is there anything out there like that?


I will say I recognize that not everyone wants to play a game that is "realistic" in feel. I feel something like Unreal Tournament captures the fantastic element of shooter play, with big time jumps, crazy fantastic weapons etc. That's cool too, but I want a realistic game of the type I described.

[BulletproofLandshark]

1. Call Of Duty maybe?

I don't know how it performs in an online MP environment (I don't game online much) but as far as realism goes, Call Of Duty was as close to the front as I would want to get. The game just puts you right in the middle of the chaos (Siege Of Stalingrad, parachuting behind enemy lines on D-Day, trench warfare, etc.) while maintaining a degree of realism about it all. No railguns or rocket-jumping here. The best part is the audio. All the sounds seem to be just right, and the game sounds glorious in 5.1 surround sound.

[jayfish]

2. As Much As I Hate To Recommend It,...

I think you would really enjoy "Battlefield 2". I have a love/hate relationship with the game. On one hand it is great. Its' primarily a squad based infantry game that throws in a nice assortment of vehicles. The squad based combat system is very good and easy to wield. With a set of familiars as your squad-mates, it borders on brilliant. It's got a nice assortment of weapons and attempts to model them accurately. It also has a nice physics system. Jumping and running is kept to a minimum (though with jumping, not as mush as it should be) using a stamina system. Unlike Far Cry, where you can swim underwater forever and run a marathon, stamina is at a premium in BF2. That's some of the good stuff but it comes with a lot of bad. It's just a downright flaky game and it's a bear to keep running without issues. It also comes with insanely high system requirements. It suffers from a lot of problems that, inexplicably, remain in the game even after several patches. One of the biggest being its' abysmal server browser. Describing everything that's wrong in the browser would take the rest of the night. I'll just say it's real bad and leave it at that. I said they "attempted" to model the weapons correctly... they failed. The designers opted for what I would describe as a rules based ballistics system rather than one that's physics based. Each gun and projectile have numbers tied to how they behave. The game sticks to these rules ruthlessly. For instance the weapons have different accuracy ratings for when they are fired in full-auto, semi-auto, single-shot. They also have modifiers for shooting from the standing, crouching and prone positions. Movement also affects the system. Basically you have a better chance of hitting your target prone and in single-shot mode than standing in full-auto. Thing is that the system is so stringent that emptying a magazine at someone (standing there with their back turned, mind you) in full-auto from 5-yards away frequently results in one or two hits and your untimely death during reload or the switch to your side-arm. It's tough for me to explain but I hope you get the gist. Bad part is, I think it's so integral to how the game is built that it will never be changed. There's more bad but when it's good you forget about it. It can be totally engrossing and it's nearly realistic. It's a $50 gamble but it sounds like it's close to what your talking about. Download the demo and give it a try. To get a better feel for the infantry weapons and combat system, stick to servers that run the 16-person version of the map. The larger version focuses much more on vehicular combat.

Jay

[Ready4Change]

3. I agree

Regular movement rates are far too fast, and nearly inexhaustible. Running across an open field for cover carrying a combat load should leave you breathless, and that should severely effect your accuracy until you regain your wind. You can push it, at the expense of tunnel visioning and greying out. Kind of like hi-Gs in an aircraft, and for the same reason. Not enough oxygen reaching the brain in a stress situation.

Jumping, and its effects, is way exagerated in nearly all FPS games. People don't leap 30 feet long and 10 feet high in the same jump. Highly tuned athletes under special circumstances can't do either separately. So soldiers carrying gear and worried about getting their heads blown off aren't even going to try.

OTOH, I recall some film footage caught when some lawyer got shot at by some irate guy outside a courthouse. It was kind of surreal. The irate guy emptied a pistol shooting at the lawyer, who was practically an arms distance away, but dodging back and forth behind a tree. He was, pretty much, dodging by strafing. Studies have show that you can double your chances of surviving being shot at by taking a single step backwards.

That all changes with full automatic fire. You're as likely to strafe into a bullet stream as away from one. Anyone who played paintball in the days between when everyone had nothing but single shot Nelspots into when everyone had a fast trigger Tipman-style firing rate knows this. A single person running in the open at a machine gun is toast. Period.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

8. On reflection, I think the fact that you can move so quickly in FPS games

is to compensate for the fact that it's typically "you against the world", a world of enemies with guns... they may need to make you fast enough to be really hard to hit so you can survive the numbers disadvantage...

Otherwise, it could be just catering to hyper 13 year old boys.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

12. remember when the first Tippmans came out?

i remember having a pump nelspot on a field. bap. click. bap. click.

then a Tippman opens up. clackclackclackclackclac.

Uhh, i'm outta here.

[semillama]

4. The Brothers in Arms games are good too

You just can't run across any open areas while under unsupressed fire. You WILL get chewed to pieces. You also can't circle strafe very well, because you won't hit the enemy very effectively and you will get chewed to pieces if there is more than one person firing at you.

I've not played the multiplayer, but commanding squads against each other sounds pretty fun.

[StaggerLee]

19. I love that series

I haven't played it online but single player was impressive.

Some complain that the weapons are innaccurate but I believe it was designed that way for realism and to force you to command your squad.

There's some pretty funny dialogue and one liners in the game that I'm sure you've noticed.

:hi:

[democracyindanger]

5. Call of Duty

is what you're looking for.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. I just bought the original. Don't know if anyone's still playing it.

I don't know if my system can handle COD 2.

[landdaddy]

7. COD MP is not

what the OP is looking for. All the bunny hoping and dancing around are still there. COD2 MP plays the same! BF2 could be the game the OP is looking for if the physics were to be changed a bit but I don't think that will happen.
COD2 is a big disappointment for me. Breezed through it too damn quickly on regular difficulty setting (thought there would be more to this game than there is). The hardened difficulty level would be better for experienced FPS players.

[democracyindanger]

9. Sure it is

It's not completely without video game annoyances, but the hopping is limited by the game, and crossing even a small open area is risky. It's not going to be the complete answer for the OP, but in terms of what he wants it's pretty close.

The single player was okay, but not anything too difficult.

[bikebloke]

10. Call of Duty

When I had a PC, for years I played nothing but Age of Empires I/II. Then it finally died, and I replaced it with a Mac. I decided to try the shoot 'em ups. First, UT 2003. Very cartoonish for my tastes (though you say they all are). So I tried Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Better, but still with unrealistic hopping heights.(The single mode was frustrating, since I didn't know about quick save and was continually starting over). Finally, Call of Duty came out for the Mac. I've stuck with this one. In multiplayer, you still see bunny hopping. But it's a humanly, realistic jump, and doesn't really help them.

The only problem is that there are so few servers for phone line players. Broadbanders have quite an edge. That's alright as long as I'm on a map where I can snipe and stalk with a rifle.

[Greyhound]

17. Still my favorite, but like all on-line games, so much of it is ping

so if yours isn't too good, they can usually just run right up on you with a noob cannon. Whatcha gonna do? I've been playing (graphic games) on-line since it was possible and it has always been so. :shrug:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

11. keep your eye on a game called "Armed Assault"

http://www.armedassault.com/

not released yet, but it's the follow-up to Operation Flashpoint, a combat simulator that was so realistic Bohemia Interactive got the contract to develop the Marines' simulator. Don't know if you're familiar with Operation Flashpoint but it has all the requirements you asked for and then some. After a sprint, for instance, your aim would bounce because of your pounding pulse. Stamina. No jumping. Huuge maps. Realistic weapons behavior, and completely unforgiving damage. Hit in the leg? you can't walk. Hit in the arm? you can't aim. Hit in the chest, you're probably dead. Hit in the head? Definitely dead. Hit with splash damage from a 30mm chain gun? Dead.

I can't wait for this release. Operation Flashpoint is too old and the player-base has all moved on, but they are still out there waiting for Armed Assault to come out. Armed Assault is said to be a complete overhaul and updating of Operation Flashpoint.

Armed Assault is not considered the true "Operation Flashpoint 2" (which won't be called Op Flash 2 because Codemasters, who severed ties to Bohemia Studeios, owns that name) is said to contain much of the technology used to build the Marines' Simulator.

Anyway, Armed Assault is said to be a complete overhaul, with a more workable multiplayer. Keep your eye on it, it's going to be another highly-detailed, ultra-realistic, first-person battlefield sim.

[landdaddy]

13. Thanks for the heads up!

Reading about Armed Assault has really piqued my interest and I'll be looking forward to it's release.
Now back to Q4
Later

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

14. Hmmm... if all this hype is true... then DADDY LIKES....

[SlavesandBulldozers]

15. lol

oh yes, daddy gonna like it a lot.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

16. just had to post this screenshot

bitchin.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Red Orchestra.

WWII Eastern Front, Red Army vs Wehrmacht. No crosshairs (iron sight aiming only); no "bunny hopping"; limited stamina for sprinting; NO medics or health powerups, etc.

Started as a mod for UT2004, soon to be released as a standalone game (based on modified Unreal engine); it's going to be available through Steam, if you have HL2 (and if you have a Steam account you get a discount).

Website is here: http://www.redorchestragame.com/