Something I've wanted to ask for a while: do you believe in the devil?

[BlueIris]

Or rather, in the concept? Even if you don't believe (as I do not) in an animate, sentient devil in the Universe, with horns and a pitchfork and the like, do you believe there are negative, devil-like forces out there?

I know our members embrace many different spiritual perspectives, so I don't want to put any parameters on desired responses here. Post whatever you want.

[MagickMuffin]

1. Devil No, Dark Forces Yes

Babylon 5, comes to mind. A TV Sci-Fi series set in the future that deals with "The Shadows" an evil force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(Babylon_5);

The First Ones are the ancient alien races of the galaxy, the first organisms to achieve sentience and the first to become spacefaring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Ones

"Psi Corps" is an agency of the Earth Alliance responsible for all humans with telepathic or other para-psychological abilities anywhere within Earth controlled space. All persons with Psi abilities are required to either join the Corps, face lifetime imprisonment, or submit to a lifetime of drug treatments to suppress their abilities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_Corps


Of course there are a lot more races to name if interested here's a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5

This was my ALL time favorite Sci-Fi show. It correlated to a lot of what has kinda happened the last 8 years.

[kentauros]

10. It's one of the best out there

though I do still love Stargate: SG1 and Stargate: Atlantis ;)

Have you seen the "Lost Tales" of B5? Because one of the episodes has an Old World "demon" in it. If you haven't seen the episode, I won't spoil the plot. I just highly recommend getting it. It's also paired up with a tale with Galen and possible futures, especially another one where a currently young Centauri Emperor could become an evil enemy of humanity.

What I find so interesting about that show is that JMS (the creator and writer for those that don't know) is an avowed atheist, yet he wrote some of the most profound stories I've ever seen on television. He's obviously well-read and taught in religious philosophy and it shows in the series.

Just ask G'Kar! :D

[MagickMuffin]

21. I've pretty much seen ALL the B5 episodes

I'm a B5 junkie. We were also fans of the Amiga, Lightwave, and Video Toasters, so we got hooked because of the effects. However, the storyline made it all the worthwhile.


I was surprised that wiki had so much info on it.

I've often thought that the Shadows were part of the Bush MisAdmin. Perhaps that is why Bush never drank, didn't want us to see "The Keepers" attached to him. :rofl:

[kentauros]

24. What d'ya mean he didn't drink?

Remember the incident with Putin and the PM of Germany? :P

I'd say he was closer to Emperor Kartaja (sp?) the thoroughly insane one ;)

I've got all the seasons on DVD plus the set for Crusade. Galen was a great character :D

Oh, I've seen some of the "new" Twilight Zones they did in the eighties. Did you know JMS wrote some of them? And that one of them was a plot pretty much just like that book/movie that came out last year, "Blindness"? Have to wonder if the author of that book saw that show and copied it...

[PinkTiger]

13. Yes, I work for the bastard.

Seriously, I believe in darkness in humanity.
Not in a creature with horns, but in an evil side to all of us.
We have to keep searching for the light to keep the evil down.

[Love Bug]

40. I agree! Nightwatch = Homeland Security

I love B5 and shook my head more than once during the Clark, er, Bush years over the similarities.

I don't believe in Satan. I believe there are low energy entities just as there are higher energy entities. The low energy entities are to be pitied, not feared.

[mtf80123]

2. Devil NO... Dark Forces.. NO

A better question would be does Evil exist? If it does is it corporeal or non-corporeal? Does it matter?

[LaurenG]

3. There is something that is negative, of that I'm sure

would I call it a being, no, but it is a force that is apparent in the things that people sometimes do.

I don't claim to understand the energy behind it though.

[stellanoir]

4. no not at all.

I always tell my clients that I don't believe in the devil and he doesn't believe in me.

We have an arrangement.

Mythically, Lucifer was the angel closest to the Creator. He allegedly got impatient and fell from grace.

Here is something else. . .

Since Arabic languages are far more multi leveled and somewhat more poetic than Greek, Latin, and English, I've long been intrigued by the scholars who are fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic who translate the verses directly into English.

The etymology they present is really quite fascinating.

The Aramaic root of the word "enemies" is a "tangled knot."

The Aramaic root of the word "evil" means "unripe."

That suggests something that requires more sunlight (aka consciousness), nourishment, water (aka emotional support), and time (patience), though I've heard no one else elucidate it as such, but most metaphysicians don't live on farms. That perspective sure beats all the tiresomely unenlightened dualistic shadow projection that is bandied about so much these days.

"Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" translated directly becomes "Blessed are those who soften their hearts (emotional rigidity) because they are open to the full powers of nature."

"Love thine enemies" was translated by Neal Douglas-Klotz. http://www.abwoon.com/ He was a guest on the visionary activist show a while ago. http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=24231 It's well worth a listen.

The host is a colleague of mine and she described his interpretations as "a vast instruction manual of great mystery."

"Love thine enemies" = "Love your enemies. From a hidden place, unite with your enemies from the inside. Fill the inner void. That makes them swell outwardly and fall out of rhythm, instead of progressing step by step. They stop and start harshly out of time. Bring yourself back into rhythm within. Find the moment that meets with theirs', like two lovers creating life from the dust. Do this work in secret. This kind of love creates. It does not emote."

[BlueIris]

5. Wow, great post, stella. nt

[kentauros]

6. Ah, another Pacifica listener :)

We have KPFT here, but I've forgotten to look over the Pacifica Archives (I'd like to look up some Firesign Theater sometime :P)

Here's another site you'd probably like to peruse: http://www.etymonline.com

And their pages for evil (two pages of synonyms and subsequent means) and enemy :D

And more etymological definitions associated with this thread:

devil
hell
Lucifer
angel
Satan
villain
monster
Mephistopheles
Asmodeus
Belial
bad
Manichaeism

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Douglas-Klotz's books are well worth a read

I have most of them. He is a Sufi brother and I have attended several workshops with him. I would recommend "Desert Wisdom" because he quotes many of the Middle Eastern spiritual traditions, including the Goddess traditions. His first book, "Prayers of the Cosmos", goes into great depth about the Lord's prayer and also some of Jesus's more famous quotations. You might also be interested to know that he has created dances to go with each line of the Lord's Prayer and other phrases.

You may be interested to know the story of Iblis, the angel who so loved God he refused to bow before Adam, God's creation. He told God that humankind would never love God as much as Iblis, and has set out to prove it--but in the end, all will be one with God.

[lynnertic]

20. Yes, Stella, No! and well, maybe

What if 'evil' isn't evil but a natural thing, a lack of empathy, or an impersonal chaotic process?

I can't imagine that one being "the devil" could be in charge of all things evil (as defined by another single being..?) to dole them out, or apply them, or for that matter, PUNISH the folks who practice it. Talk about contradictions.

While I seek to understand evil and in some cases to accept necessary evils, it's difficult for me to abide by evil in my presence (as defined by ME) and I am loathe to permit evil influences into my dusty little home.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. No

the dark forces are, in and of themselves, part of the illusion of this life. They have been described to me as shadows--when one sees a shadow, they can be scary and appear very real--but when Light is shone upon them, they disappear. If there is nothing but God (la illaha il Allah), then there is only Light.

But there is a hell--it is created by our own thoughts and misconceptions. We are the keeper of our own hell, though, and we alone have the key that will release us. Hell is not something necessarily found after this life but something we experience here and now.

[Celebration]

9. Yes

There are dark forces. Anyone who does something as basic as smudging knows that. And they can cause harm to us in many different ways, if we allow it.

But the way we respond to "it" (collective dark forces) is important. Too much resistance and it gives the dark forces power, but ignore it at your peril. Fear certainly is not the proper response to evil. Empowerment and knowledge are.

Fortunately, the good almost always has more power than evil, in my experience.

Most likely, we (collectively) create our own evil, just as we create good. Since we (collectively) are all entertwined, evil is a part of the lives of all of us and those around us. Identifying and recognizing it is important, as is removing it from our energy fields. Just a piece of misinformation is what I would call a "dark force." Stress, or negative conditioning, can invite pieces of misinformation into our energy fields. Even if we consciously discount such misinformation, our cells have memory, and the misinformation can negatively affect our lives.

Now, as for a pitchfork devil.....:rofl: I kinda doubt it.

There's a lot about this subject that I just plain don't know!

[GardeningGal]

11. Really interesting question.

I don't believe there is a being but I believe that there is dark energy just as there is light energy.

I believe that our thoughts are energy and those energies are constantly changing and mixing about and that the definition of whether the energy is light or dark is based on the intent of the subject. If the intent is ego based then it is dark energy and if it is spiritually based then it is light energy.

[kentauros]

12. My beliefs on this question kind of tumble around...

Seeing as how I read all sorts of opinions on this and how I act and think, I don't necessarily always follow my own mindset. I do have to remind myself of them when I think of it, though.

Such as the concept that there is no evil and no good. Both and everything between are simply constructs of humanity for societal perceptions. This then follows that God doesn't care if humans do "evil" to other humans and/or the planet. God just wants to experience it All, so we have true Free Will. Then again, with the concept of infinite realities, does Free Will even exist? If there are infinite realities, then all possible choices have been made and our conscious life through that maze isn't truly Free Will, but pre-destiny ;) That includes all the "evil" and "good" we do along the way.

I still tend to hang on to the idea that evil and good are just perceptions we have in the world even as I react strongly against what I see are things that are just "wrong". I am subject to the same perceptions, a child of them, so separating myself from them is a bit difficult. Not impossible, but it does make me question if I should separate, too.

[get the red out]

14. An incarnate being? NO

The shadow side of existence? YES

There will always be a shadow, but I believe it can become less extreme; I believe it already has become less extreme in many segments of the human race.

Public death games used to be the norm in Rome; when someone gets killed in sport today we demand that new safety measures be implemented. The shadow is less. We don't want death as public sport now.

There are other improvements I can think of, as well as things/ideas whose dark side has not improved or become even darker.

[Why Syzygy]

15. Not per se

But definitely believe in the Two Paths. There are many ways to represent it. The Left path is said to represent the way of only serving self, the Right for love of others and service to all humanity. The Left leads one to usurp the free will of others, the Right to respect individual choice. "Enemies" would not even exist without the duality of choice and the strife to impose our will on another. The exploration of this concept leads me to much understanding.



Then, there is the Book of Enoch. It's a very descriptive narration of why we are tempted to serve ourselves and give into negativities of spirit. Sometimes when I feel despair creeping up, I remind myself of this tale. It describes how "sin" entered the earth due to eternal spiritual beings mixing their essence with humanity. The "sin" was that they left their ordained station and sought to interfere in the destiny/free will of humankind. It also supplies many possible insights.

8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'
(...)

8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/book_of_enoch.htm

[winyanstaz]

16. I do not believe in the devil...

as I believe we have both positivity and negativity within us and we chose of our own free will. There is no outside being making us do anything.
I have been getting out of body since I was a small child and have never run into any devil that was an entity..only a thought-form. As such (a thought-form) it can have a lot of power for those that believe in it.
However, there are entities that are with us and have always been with us that are not manifested in physical form. I call them energy vampires/succubus and they can be nasty things indeed. I have taken a few off of people (they often cause seizures in their victims) and had one on myself for three years (it almost killed me but with the help of another Shaman we got it off) It put me in a wheel chair for those three years and my leg atrophied something aweful..but when we got it off my leg was firm and pink and whole again. My sons cried when they saw me walk again.
They are NOT "evil" per say...but they definitely are not human-like and they feed off of us if they can.
I believe these entities are what caused our ancestors such as in the Victorian age to just lay down and pine away.
I have also meet a few real human energy vampires that are often just like the entities. They leave you drained if you are around them very long. Not all human energy vampires are aware of what they are doing. Those that are aware we call Black Magicians/negative energy workers.
Sensitives especially need to learn how to protect themselves by closing the curcuits..ie: clasp your hands together..place the feet flat on the ground (this closes the energy flow of your body from leaving your aura) and then do your best prayer or mantra/spiritual thought..as this is an instant force field. The darkness/negativity has NO power over the Light.
These entities HAVE to mind you but they try to either sneak on you (like the one that was on me did...I thought it was a bad leg injury until it moved) or frighten you in order to keep their power over you. You have the power to throw them off but you must focus your intent and not be afraid.

[Celebration]

17. great, detailed answer

This is pretty specific and I concur completely. And so many people are unaware. The negative entities have to obey. LOL, for them, that is TRUE. It's kind of fun bossing all that around. And that's the good news. But most people are clueless. That is the bad news. And sneaky? OMG, yes.

That is my take on it too.

But, I have a lot to learn.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Thank you for this information

Especially the way of closing the circuits. That I hadn't heard before, and I will keep it in mind. (We get the energy vampires at the clinic from time to time.) Would you say that anger and the fear that is behind it is what allows the entities to come in? I had a psychic attack about five years ago and know it was triggered by me getting angry. Took a couple of shaman to draw out the energy "arrow" from my back.

Also, are you familiar with tonk? Do you feel it helps in keeping these energies at bay?

[Celebration]

23. closing the circuits

You know, places like Tools for Exploration have sold products to help "close the circuits". They look kind of interesting, but maybe a little pricey?

One product that looked interesting was copper hand grips which were connected by a copper wire, that you hold while you meditate. I have never tried them but they look powerful.

I actually have a copper pyramid that I can sit under and meditate. The price was just too low on Ebay, so I bought it. I just hardly ever use it, and hardly ever meditate even (BAD Celebration). But it is extremely powerful, and the whole bottom of it is wired together with copper.

All of this talk makes me want to get a copper pyramid that goes over the bed. I would love that but I bet my husband would put his foot down on that.

As far as psychic attacks go, they happen all the time, and come about just with regular, ordinary stress. They may be magnitudes smaller than what is being described in this subthread, but they take their toll nonetheless.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. My husband has made a zapper

thing that is supposed to kill parasites, etc, in the body. It involves copper hand grips and a copper wire hooked to a battery, I think (it's been a while). Interesting that you described something similar.

[Celebration]

27. Well,

Not exactly. Nothing zaps. I think it kind of just connects everything energetic in the body together in a loop. That's the best way to describe it.

But the copper and the handgrips and the wire would be the same, probably. But this device is very low tech compared to a zapper. I may go off looking for it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. Let me know when you find it

sounds intriguing.

[Celebration]

31. I looked for "Tools for Exploration"

And came up with "Tools for Wellness". They must have merged with someone and dropped the product. All their stuff is generally too expensive anyway. I have no idea who else would have this.

[kentauros]

32. They do still have a page for the "BioCircuits", though they are not offered anymore.

I had to first go to the Internet Archive to look at the old "Tools for Exploration" sites to find that much out. Here's one page for the BioCircuits from the old site, one from the new site and one from the manufacturer :)

http://web.archive.org/web/20000824153214/www.toolsforwellness.com/toolsforwellnesscom/sb102.html

http://www.toolsforwellness.com/copbioc.html

http://www.quantumbalancing.com/biocircuits.htm

I'm sure you could probably find some other site that has them for less, or, now that you know how they're made, just make your own ;)

[Celebration]

33. you are a great web searcher!!

:thumbsup:

I was starting to think I dreamed this. LOL.

[kentauros]

34. Thanks!

:)
But I also remember getting catalogs for Tools for Exploration and remembered the tools you were describing. I just couldn't remember what they were called. And the Internet Archive is a wonderful tool for revisiting dead and old links :D

Oh, here's a site that sells the kits for a lot less than some of the other sets I've seen in my search:

http://www.dynamind.com/biocir.htm

[Celebration]

35. Thanks again

I probably won't order them, but I have to say I had a rush of energy just looking at them!

BlueIris might be interested in this since she is such a fan of the copper pot scrubber on the head.

[winyanstaz]

30. Yes, we are more vulnerable when our auras are not bright..

We are energy beings and within ourselves we have a cosmic battery that is stronger than any man made battery on the planet. We have both a positive/electrical and a negative/magnetic energy flow that twists up our spines and we can raise that energy and send it out to do things with it far beyond what a machine can do.
If you feel a machine is necessary than that is also fine,.whatever works for you is best.
Just closing the circuits and keeping our energy fields bright and clear is all we really need once we learn how to do so. It takes practice to stay centered however.
I have not heard of this tonk, sorry :) What is it exactly?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

36. The energy flow and tonk

The energy flow--I've heard it called kundalini. I do practices using it daily--didn't realize it was as powerful as you describe!

Tonk is shelf fungus. It grows on the sides of tress. Native Americans use it to smudge places where negativity lurks--the smell is bad and the energies depart!

[winyanstaz]

38. Ok I know those as conks..:) sorry I didnt recognize the word.

I usually use Sacred Golden sweet Cedar, Sweetgrass, or Sacred Sage to smudge. :)

[I Have A Dream]

18. I really don't know. People certainly do very dark things...

and I do feel that negative energy from various source can coalesce into a bigger, more powerful negative energy. I've lead a very sheltered life in reference to such things. I almost feel as though I've been protected; I hope that it continues.

I don't feel the need to figure it out since I don't feel that it is part of my path to deal with it. I don't want to bring it into my mind unless there's an issue that requires it of me. I say this because focusing on something tends to make it stronger, in my opinion. I try to avoid any kind of dark entertainment for the same reason.

I have the same feeling about God. I really don't know anything about God, and I don't feel that there's any way that I'm going to know anything for sure in this life. Therefore, I'm focusing instead on the esoteric things to which I feel drawn.

Good question, BI.

[northernlights]

19. I tend not to

I usually believe there is love (the godhead/life energy/ati) and there is lack of love. That when we are cut off from our source of love, fear takes over. And primal fear is the root of all evil.

[marions ghost]

26. negative and positive energy, yes

Some people live in the negative to the extent that they become like our mythical concept of devils. I don't know if they have any choice, I rather think they are driven to it and cannot control it. There are many "devils."

When meeting with the negative energies it's necessary to consciously bring light and love to the situation. And just as important to bring truth to the situation. Truth = light.

I used to think that you could live without acknowledging the dark side--just stick to the "good" and avoid the bad. Then I had a couple of experiences where good morphed into bad before my very eyes. Changed my thinking. Nobody can escape being exposed to the negative, shadow side of things. But negative forces can be challenged and defeated. From what I've seen, it takes work. Not always hard work, but focus.

[Chovexani]

29. Obvious Disclaimer: my opinion only, etc

I don't believe in a singular evil force because I don't believe in a singular good force. The universe is a lot more complicated and diverse than that. But, unlike a lot of Pagans I do think Satan exists--if only because so many people have fed that concept so much energy, negative or otherwise, for so long. He exists because the thoughtform has been given life by humans. But, he's not a part of my belief system so he's got as little to do with me as his opposite. I don't think of him any more than I think of, say, Allah or Ahura Mazda.

Are there malicious or malignant beings out there? No question. Anyone who says otherwise is pulling your leg. I've dealt with them, kicked their asses when they showed up to be unruly, or bribed them to go away. The universe is not all sunshine and rainbows, and, IMNSHO, people who tend to think that way are a big shiny target for them. Kind of like the tourists in Times Square who walk around with giant fanny packs and maps and point up at the buildings a lot. There's a lot to be said for acknowledging reality so you can better protect yourself.

I guess these discussions tend to put me off, though, just because they always end up going right back to the same old dualistic framework that's been stifling spiritual development in the West for the last 2,000 years. Oh, there might be different language in use than "God and the Devil" (usually "Light and Dark", which especially grates on my nerves) but it's all pretty much the same-old, same-old. With all due respect to the poster above, the Left/Right spiritual dichotomy is just another euphemism for "right and wrong", and it just is not that simple. LHPers are not out to deprive anyone of their free will anymore than RHPers. LHPers are too busy worried about their own business to really give a shit about yours. That's not so say there aren't a number of them who are out to wreak as much havoc as possible and who take a child-like joy in fucking with people. Oh, there are plenty of them. But I find them refreshingly honest and sincere in their sociopathy even as I ward myself, have to clean up their messes, and take them to the metaphysical woodshed. Far more insidious are the RHPers who rationalize their shitty, ofttimes manipulative behavior with "but Spirit led me to" or feel they've been somehow deputized as Karma Police. A lot of people mistakenly tend to think "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" is the end of the Thelemic axiom a great deal of LHPers live by, and not just half of it (the other half being: love is the law, love under will"). This doesn't mean "do whatever you want and fuck everyone else'. Will is capital-letter Will, and is similar to the Indian concept of dharma. A great deal of the work is figuring out what your Will is. The Thelemic teachings that a lot of LHPers live by go on to talk about the nature of love, and its relationship to the Will (love can be harsh, and always serves to instruct.) It's really heavy shit when you get into it. In fairness, there's LHPers who take the shallow view also and that doesn't really help anything.

Darkness. Is. Not. Inherently. Evil. There, I said it. :P Really, it's not, anymore so than Light is inherently good. Each path has its assortment of genuinely good people, folks who are just trying to do The Work, hustlers, and predators. The Dark is my path (though I don't specifically identify with the Left Hand Path, there are some similarities), and really what it boils down to is confronting the Jungian shadow self and reclaiming it as a source of strength rather than shoving it in a closet and repressing it in the hopes it will go away. I don't go around trying to hurt people, but if someone's showing their ass, I will open cans of cosmic whoop ass as necessary.

BTW, if I at all came across as bashing Lightworkers in anyway, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent at all. It just gets frustrating to constantly hear negativity heaped on what I do when no one really understands it.

[Cleita]

37. I do believe there are negative entities out there.

But I don't really believe in the devil as we were taught about. I don't believe in Hell. I believe we work out our karma in our many reincarnations until we get it right. Although I am not a Buddhist, I guess my perspective is close to theirs.

[Celebration]

39. yes, and

they can be detected in energy fields with a pendulum (or muscle testing). It is a very basic traditional radionics technique.

[ZombieHorde]

41. No, I do not believe in the devil.