Let's talk cutlery

[tishaLA]

I think it's time for me to abandon the cheap, terrible knives I've been using for too long now. They were fine when cooking meant little to me, but in the past five years I have grown up and I love to work in the kitchen. Cheap knives make that difficult. They smash instead of cut. They make me fearful when I mince and onion finely. They are virtually useless for cutting meat. And, as much as I love to cook--and I cook for friends as often as possible because it's more fun than cooking for myself--new knives are a worthwhile investment, I think.

So I need some advice. Ideally, I would be able to get the set of Global knives I crave so desperately. They are so beautiful and modern. They are so sharp and light that when I handle them in the store, I imagine myself as a kitchen ninja, destroying any vegetable that jumps in my path. I really lust for them. Or maybe I'm secretly Teutonic and I need Wustoff, with all its heft and Germanic tradition. It's less exciting to me, but it is undoubtedly excellent. Either will last me a lifetime and give me many hours of pleasure.

But they are also very expensive! Five pieces of Global cost $350. Wustoff is slightly less expensive, but still not cheap. My question is this, I guess: do I go for it because I want them? Do you have advice about other companies or knives I might want to look at that are compatible but less expensive, or that are in the same price range but better? Which knives can't you live without? What knives do you use and trust?

[Stinky The Clown]

1. There were several earlier threads that got into discussions of knives

Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=236&topic_id=1281

I made a long post there about knives:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=236&topic_id=1281#1815

Personally, I like the European knives. I have a mix of Sabatier (which I love), Wustoff and Henkels. I also have some off brands and some Asian knives. I buy what I think I'll use. As was said in that earlier thread, don't buy a set. You probably will not use every knife that comes with it. Get what you know you'll need and then build from there, one piece at a time. And please, please, please ... don't be afraid to mix brands. You may find you love Brand A's utility knife, and can't live without Brand B's ham slicer. As I said in that earlier thread ... they're tools, not decorations.

For a starter set, I'd suggest what is called a "chef's knife" or "French knife", in either 8" or 10". If you get the smaller one, it is easier to handle. But it may not be long enough for everything you need to do. I'd get the 10" and work at learning to master it. BUt the 8" may well suit your hand better. This is the classic "French knife". I dare say I use mine for 90% of my knife work, all my other knives notwithstanding:



Next is a good "utility" knife. Something in the 5" to 7" range. Like this:



A paring knife, like this. About 4" or 5" long:



Last essential would be a slicer. Here you have some choice. You could go with a smaller general purpose slicer like this one (8"). While it looks similar to a French knife, it is far different in feel:



or with a longer one that will do very nicely on, say, a roast beef (12" to 14"):



You should also get a steel:



Apart from these few knives that I would call essential, just get what you need. By the way, you might also consider some "house brand" knives if names don't impress you (if you never wore jeans with the manufacturer's name all over the ass, this is good advice). I've bought from Fantes both on line and in person. They're a good reputable dealer (as are so many others) who also have a serious on line presence (as so few do). They have a line of house brand knives that are of excellent quality. I don't know who makes them, but they're made right there in Germany in the same place all the big guys come from. Check them out. You may find what you want for far less money.

Here's their web site. I also got all these images from there:

http://fantes.com/

Scroll down the left side of the page to the knife sections. You'll not only see the knives, but learn about them. Be sure to go to each manufacturer/menu choice from that list. Each has different information about professional knives.

I just noticed that they have on their site a set that actually looks useful:



It has a 3.5" paring knife, a 6" utility knife, and an 8" chef knife. And its only a hundred bux. A good name brand chef's knife will set ya back that much or more.

By the way .... those Global knives ..... ? I'd be very, very careful with any knife that has a metal handle. In my experience, they slip in wet hands, no matter *what* they say about the handle design.

The pop quiz will be tomorrow. The question: What is a granton edge? ;-)

[tishaLA]

3. Thanks H2S!

I don't know how I missed those convos. Guess I didn't feel like buying knives back then or something.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. You're welcome!

Actually, I'm glad you're going for new knives. Bad knives are not only inconvenient and frustrating, they're also quite unsafe. If a knife fails to cut with real ease, we tend to put more pressure on it in order to get it to break through that warm butter we're trying to cut. Do this, and the knife slips. It slips and it cuts. Not the intended target, but **you**.

While a good knife *can* cut you, it is less likely than with that old, dull, bent thing you've been using!

[eleny]

7. Fantes Pro Chef 4" Knife?

How would you use this kinfe? It looks like a little fire plug of worker. I've never seen one with such a short and wide a blade yet with a large handle. Just curious.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. I can't imagine

Well ... I could imagine, but I really have no clue. I've never seen one in use, let alone actually used it myownself. I can imagine using it to dice onion or some such. But the fact is, a French knife, properly used, is so versatile one hardly needs another knife.:shrug:

[eleny]

13. It sure is a curiosity

In fact, it's pretty outragous in its appearance.

[housewolf]

2. Check out some online sources

Get a feel for what you want by looking in local stores, then check online. There are some cutlery sites that have much better prices.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. Very sound advice.

If you've never used a really good knife, than you will be able to get used to the feel of any good one. Using a pro knife properly is a whole skill set to be learned. So you'll simply adapt the new knife into your learning curve and off ya go.

If, on the other hand, you know your way around a good French knife, then you really should try them in hand before you buy. What looks like a nice knife may feel all off balance or unwieldy in a hand trained for a different style or weight.

Go to any store that sells good knives to try before you buy. Then shop for the best bargain. Just be sure you compare prices on the *exact* same knife. Many top line manufacturers have different knife lines, all for similar prices. They also have downline knives for less. Be sure that Wustoff Impala with the leather bucket seats and racing stripes you fall in love with at BeddBaffanBeyondReason is the very same knife for which you comparison shop on the Internet.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

5. I second housewolf's suggestion

to find what you like at a store then check prices online.

My Simon does a pretty good comparision. You probably already knew that! :)

http://www.mysimon.com/

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Hey Tisha! Tisha? Hello?

You didn't answer the pop quiz. :)

What's a granton edge?

[tishaLA]

10. Hush now!

I'm still studying! :P

[tishaLA]

11. So do y'all use Santuko knives?

I have a friend who loves hers--it's a Henkel's--and it does feel great in my hand. Much more mobile and lightweight than a chef's knife, which is what I use for most tasks. I wonder whether I should make sure to get one of those when I buy the knives.

[eleny]

12. Are you starting to narrow down your decision?

Btw, I was became curious about the Santuko. Glad you asked!

[tishaLA]

14. A bit, but then again

that link H2S posted with the "house" knives looked good too. But there's no way I'll get to feel them.

I'm really hoping to decide within the next week because I have felt like I need good knives for a while, but I always talk myself out of them. I have now definitively decided they are not a frivolous expense--not as much as I love to cook.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

15. definitely not a frivolous expense.

I've had a Henkel for 26 years now. I can't remember what I paid for it -a lot- but if I worked it out per year it's dirt cheap.

[eleny]

16. I've started to do some comparing

One thing that jumped out at me was that the Sabatier "Requires far-superior regimen of care and cleaning to prevent the blades from rusting and staining". The Fante's knife description says "The metal is highly resistant to staining". Both brands do advise that the user should wash and dry the knives right away.

There's so much to read but it seems worth the time to compare. With so many superior companies it'll be hard to make a bad decision. Like you say, you want to see how they feel in your hand. I've held some very expensive knives at the store and they didn't feel so comfy.

[tishaLA]

17. Sabatiers have a very high carbon content, I think

that's what makes them so susceptible to discoloration (what a mouthful that was!). I have made a date with a friend to go hang at Sur La Table on Sunday where I will hold knives ad pretend I am cooking. She'll listen and try to remember what I said about the knives--but with greater accuracy than me, because I am easily seduced by lust for kitchen tools. Then I'm gonna go on line and look for the best deals.

I'm also going to cook at a friend's tomorrow night. She got a huge set of Henkels 4 star for her wedding a month ago. I have played with them a bit, but I need to revisit them. And then I'm going to steal her Le Creuset dutch oven.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Sabatier makes stainless knives and high carbon knives ....

.... as do all the major manufacturers. You just don't see the high carbon ones very often in consumer circles cuz most everyone wants everything to stay new and shiny. What you say about Sabatier is true .... for *some* of their various lines. It is just as true for Wustoff or Forschner or Henkels or Dexter or ...... whoever.

All the Sabatiers that I have, except one, are stainless. It isn't the same stainless as your cookware, or countertops for that matter. Knife stainless much more carbon in and much less copper and nickel. In that thread I linked at the top of this thread I talked about stainless vs high carbon.

Stainless knives are like stainless lined copper pots. They keep looking new longer. But the better performance in a copper pot is with (very "discolorable") tin linings. The insides of all my copper pots are a dull gray. They started out nice and shiny, but they don't stay that way. If ya want shiny, get stainless. But, again back tot hat earlier thread, I contend that a stainless knife will perform virtually as well as a high carbon one, but demands more edge care to keep the performance up there.

[NMDemDist2]

21. my old knives are stained and discolored and I think it adds to their

charm

I kinda like that it's not all shiny and it works great! High carbon isn't a bad thing I shouldn't think if you like everything else about it

Mine is an old "Forgecraft" that i'm sure aren't available any more, except at auction sites since I think the company is kaput

[wildeyed]

25. I have a high carbon carving knife.

It is very good. Also antique with a silver handle. I will try to post a pic if I get around to it.

[eleny]

20. Oh lord!

I visited the web site and found that there's a Sur La Table in my neighborhood. I try to avoid places like this. Pricey places. But this one is ultra close. Must... resist... cannot... resist... must... go... hold... cuttlery....

[wildeyed]

26. Sur La Table is a very bad place.

Kind of like William-Sonoma, but with more small items for impulse buys. I can't get out for under $50, so I try not to go in at all.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. That's the reason they're so popular

Light and maneuverable. Kinda like a sports car. I don't have one, but have actually been looking at them. I have several other Asian knives that I enjoy using, but they have the usual single bevel Asian edge, and I don't recommend that as an "out of the gate" starter knife. The Western Santukos are just an adaptation of a classic Asian knife shape ..... but with a normal Western double bevel or a granton edge (hint, hint, Tisha! :))

[SoCalDem]

22. I once got a $70 chef's knife for Christmas

I stiull have it and use it all the time.. My friends thought it was funny to get Mom a knife for Xmas:)

[tishaLA]

23. So I got some knives finally!

what did I get? From Wustof, an 8" chef's knife, a 4" paring knife, and a 6" utility knife. From Fantes, a 7" granton santuko knife. So far I love them. Updates later.

I need to get a sharpening steel or stone and a serrated knife eventually, I suppose. I still think Global knives are beautiful.

[NMDemDist2]

24. wonderful! congrats

that is the last thing I need to address in my kitchen. Lucky for me I inherited a few good carbon steel knives from Grammy that still are servicable

can you post so pics of the new beauties?

[tishaLA]

30. OK here are the pics

but they're from a site cause I don't have a scanner etc. I think they're purty!


Santuko knife


Paring, Utility, and Chef's knives

[Stinky The Clown]

27. How do you like the Santuko?

With the granton edge, these make great "serious" knives for non-professionals who might be scared off by a huge old French knife. That said, I'm so glad you got that 8" chef's knife. I suspect, once you get used to it, it will become your 'go to' knife for 80% or more of all your cutting.

[tishaLA]

31. I love the lightness of the santuko

but I also enjoy the heft of the chef's knife. I have to confess I'm really impressed with the quality of the santuko, which is from the site you reference above. I hesitated to buy it because I couldn't feel it, but I think if I had to do it again, I might get all Fantes knives. They are very high quality--as good in my hand as any Wustof of Henkel's I held (to the non-pro)--and relatively inexpensive.

I've used the santuko for things that I feel like I can be lazy with, like dicing onions or tomatoes, because of its light weight. When I cut up butternut squash, though, I turned to the chef's knife.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. I'm asking because I just got a cheapie version

I posted about it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=236x7619
I like it, but without the bolster and a heftier blade back, its a bit tiring to use. You can see here ....

.... how I hold a knife ... index finger over the blade, other fingers on the handle. This gives good control but also requires a knife with a smooth, slightly rounded blade back .... like your new Santuko has, but that's lacking in the cheapie I bought.

All that said, the cheapie is still a great value. But I'll take your version for long term, 'go to' knife use.

[eleny]

28. I got the 8" knife, too

How I love it. I'm so happy to read your update and am looking forward to more about how you're using the new knives. It makes the whole preparation experience so much fun. Like - "Oh goody! I have to slice some tomatoes!".

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Hahahahaha ......

..... adult toys! ;)

We're all justa buncha kids at heart! Except now we can play with knives.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Sharpeners

You said you still need a steel and a sharpener. For the steel, there's no need to drop a week's pay on one. All ya need is a properly sized and guarded one. This 10" one from Fantes looks pretty good. It's about twenny bux.

Of course, a steel is NOT a sharpener. It removes little or no metal. Rather, it aligns the blade's edge to make it cut smoother. I use a steel every second or third time I use a knife - even if all I'm slicing is tomatoes.

Do you know how to use a steel?

For a sharpener, I'd really suggest an electric one. I have two of the Chef's Choice ones ... a two stage and a three stage. The Model 110 - the three stage - is an excellent unit with excellent reviews.

They have them here:
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/shop/search.asp?keywords=Chef%27s+Choice+Sharpeners&kw=chef's+choice+electric+knife+sharpener&src=resmedia4
I see they have the (now discontinued) Model 100 on closeout for $69.99 (down from $99.99). The two stage model 310 I have is there, too. Of the three (110, 100, 310) the Model 100 is probably the best value. That said, I don't know what the difference is between the 100 and 110.

All I've ever done is follow the directions that came with mine and I've been very happy.