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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 02:55 PM
Original message
Inchworm silly question of the week
I think I have the sourdough concept down. I'm still over-kneading but that'll come with time.

What makes breadtypes what they are?

Anything I make with the starter would be sourdough, I assumed. But using different flour has a great effect on the process somewhere or another; like longer (or barely) rise time, denser finished product, etc.

Am I looking at the starter wrong? Could I just eliminate it from the recipe all together and have a better/worse outcome?

Oh.. what's up with dinner rolls, soft pretzels, bagels? Seems that the dough I make could not result in what I imagine as these things.

I'm just a curious madman :)

:hi:
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm sure housewolf and others will pop in with REAl information, but
I've seen recipes for sourdough everything. Pancakes, waffles, breadsticks, etc. You just need to find recipes for those and try them with your starter.

I think the outcomes will depend on the texture of your starter. How thin it is, etc.

Now I'll shut up, and we can wait for housewolf. :rofl:
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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Well.. I hope starter texture isn't the key
hehe. Like I've mentioned, my starter is a liquid pretty much. I don't know if it is right, but it sure makes yummy bread :D


I'll be hunting some different recipes soon :)

:hi:
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I wimped out with mine. It smelled like what I've been reading about
but it was soooo thin, that I wasn't sure about it...

I just bought one of the King Arthur sourdough starters and think I'll play with it before I try doing my own again.

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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Drat, I bet you had it
Hope the other works for ya :)

:hi:
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yep. I think you posted about yours being thin about the time I dumped mine
I will try it again though....
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Your sourdough starter is the leavening ingredient
You can make things like pancakes with it but you'll have to let the batter sit long enough to develop air bubbles, the leavening. Baking powder is just quicker for things like pancakes.

As for other flours, I was hooked on Baldwin Hill Sourdough Rye back in New England. The loaves were dense and chewy and without caraway. They'd also mold over in about 18 hours, so I used to slice them and freeze them immediately. There was nothing better for a quick supper than a couple of slices of it with sliced tomato and cheese with herbs stuffed into a toaster oven. I'm sure there are sourdough rye recipes and others using specialty flours out there.

As for your other question, I'd suggest just going out and getting a good bread cookbook. Peter Reinhart's books are wonderful and the artisan baking bible is his "Crust and Crumb."

Here are his books: http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Peter+Reinhart&source=an&ei=gIi1Sa7bApmktQP6jqB8&sa=X&oi=book_group&resnum=5&ct=title&cad=author-navigational

Here's his blog: http://peterreinhart.typepad.com/
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Baldwin Hill bread! I loved that stuff.
I've found nothing comparable out here in the capital of artisanal bread baking.
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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I see
So.. I am raising yeast? I'm a yeast farmer? :rofl:

:woohoo:

I'll look into those books.. and some rye recipes.

Thanks!

:hi:
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Short answer: yes
Good sourdough starter also has acid loving bacteria mixed in, unlike regular bread yeasts.

I tried the red grape sourdough starter and ended up with a wonderfully sour and fragrant starter that wimped out when it came to raising bread. I found that just a pinch of bread yeast helped it along.

As for the consistency, that's not as important as the aroma. Good sourdough starters will smell yeasty and sour. Bad ones will spell spoiled and need to be tossed out since the nasty smell signals it's been colonized by unfriendly yeast and ugly bacteria and the resulting bread won't taste very good.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'm on the 8th generation of Ain5
I don't wash my container, just take the dried crunchy bits and mix them into the new batch that lives in the fridge along with whatever wet bits stick to the bottom when I pull out that last bunch of dough.

it is tasting SOOOOOOO good, sour and delish!!! I do 'feed' it every time I take out a loaf (I get three loaves per batch) and it's getting that really sour alcoholic smell

I'm loving that stuff :rofl:
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buzzycrumbhunger Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book
My fave for whole grain breads, and one of those cookbooks you just read cover to cover. They have a desem recipe, which is the precursor to sourdough (no rye)--same idea, but holy cow, it's to die for. If sourdough is a homey loaf from Grandma, desem is her Sunday best.

My problem was always using my starter enough to keep it fed. At times when I couldn't face another loaf of bread (well, that just sounds crazy), pancakes, bagels, or pita, I would simply feed my starter and use half of it as is to make crackers. You just roll (or spread, if it's glop) evenly on a baking sheet (those silicone liners are great for this) and bake until crispy. I score mine first so they're easier to snap apart. Fantastic with a sharp cheese.
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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-10-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I like the cracker idea
My "slop" is too runny even for that I think. I'm going to get some regular flour based starter soon to try it.

:hi:
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-10-09 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
12. I ran a bread forum about 10 yrs ago and put together a sourdough page
with the best information I had about sourdough. Here's a link
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbread/FrontPage.html

The site has been unmaintained for some years now, but the information is still good. Check it out, then come back to me with questions.

There are a number of factors that go into making any bread turn out the way it turns out. Type of flour, ratio of flour to liquid, whether there is any fat in the dough or not, sweeteners, salt, whole grain flour vs white flour, time and temperature of the rise, how well developed (kneaded) or not, and the type of yeast used, and how the dough is processed and cooked. The most important of these are the flour, hydration, time and temperature (temp both of the rise and the oven when baking), followed by the knead and the fat in the dough.

Bages, for instance, are made with a very hard wheat, is a very firm dough, very well developed, boiled first and then baked.

Soft dinner rolls are best made with all-purpose flour rather than bread flour, made into a soft but moist dough, contain milk, egg, and/or butter (considered to be "dough conditioners). They are baked in pans at about moderate oven 350 - 375 because you don't want a thick crust to build up on them. Pan loaves are similiar.

Soft Pretzles are made into a moderately soft dough, shaped then often dipped into boiling water that contains a small amount of lye to get that great shine and color.

What are your goals in terms of they types of bread that you'd like to be making? There are very different ingredients and processing needed for crusty artisan breads from what's needed for a tender bread used for cinnamon rolls, brioche or dinner rolls/loaves. So to start with, figure out what type of bread you want to focus on. Treat your breadmaking as an experiment - keep notes of what your make, exactly what you did, and how it turned out. That way you'll be gathering information for yourself about how to make adjustments that will get you closer and closer to what you want to achieve.

Depending on what your bread goals are, the potato flake starter you are using might or might not be appropriate for what you want to achieve. It's hard to maintain a commercial-yeast based starter, unless you are lucky enough to have "contaminated" it with a strong enough strain of "wild" yeast to take it over and turn it into a natural yeast starter. Generally, the term "sourdough starter" refers to a starter that is perpetuated by feeding with flour and water only, one that maintains itself as a stable culture of non-commercial yeast (a different strain of yeast from commercial baker's yeast) and lactobacilli. When you get a good strain going, it can be maintained from decades (or some over 100 years, such as the Oregon Trail Starter). A starter that's constantly fed with commercial yeast will eventually spoil, as the build-up of acids from the yeast (not lactic acid, but other types of acid) eventually weakens the yeast and the starter becomes vulnerable to undesirable strains of microorganisims. Their are other names for starters of this type (levain is a French term, desem is a Flemish term), and there are differences in them based on their consistency and how they are maintained, but the common thing about them is that they are all maintained on just water and flour.

Many types of starters can make sour bread, that doesn't make the dough what we know as "sourdough". You only get that rich complexity of flavors with a wild yeast.
"sourdough" starter.

I hope that helps some. Let us know what you're trying to achieve, and there are lots of folks here who can help with their experience and knowledge.








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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-10-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Noted and bookmarked
Thanks for all the great info!

The potato starter I'm currently using was "born" in 1990 and passed along. The same person that gave my daughter the potato starter to share also maintains a flour base starter. I'm hoping to get a sample of that soon.

I can't wait to play with it. Yes, my kitchen IS a lab. I really do need to keep more accurate records and such. I shoot from the hip quite often.

:hi:
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