Grumpy-ness about and tweaks/improvements to the Ain5 bread.

[Shakespeare]

I finally tried the five-minute bread for the first time this past weekend, and have been less than impressed with it (and I say that as somebody who's baked a fair amount of bread over the last several years, with both sourdough and commercial yeast--I'm not new to the task). After doing some digging around on the intertubes, the following tweaks/corrections to the original recipe seem to be advised:

1. The yeast quantity should be 2 packets, not 1 1/2 packets (the authors originally confused 1 1/2 tablespoons--the equivalent of 2 packets--with 1 1/2 packets).

2. The rise/proof time after taking it out of the fridge is closer to 1 1/2 to 2 hours (unless you want a dense, undeveloped crumb--bleah), not 40 minutes, and the "don't knead" instructions are a little over-emphasized.

3. The cooking time may need to be a tad longer than the recipe suggests.

I'm going to try a second batch, and will play around with it (and report my results). I'd love it if anybody else wants to chime in with what they've changed/improved with the recipe. If I'm equally dissatisfied with the second batch (with above-mentioned changes), I'm scrapping the concept altogether and will go back to older, better (for me) methods.

[Lucinda]

1. We discussed the yeast changes a while back. They have a list

of book corrections on http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/ but both amounts do work, with the expected differences, of course.

The 40 minute rise time works perfectly for me. I've never noticed a problem. I got busy one day and it was two hours before I baked, and I didn't see much of a difference. I'm curious to see if it changes things for you. Did you use All Purpose or bread flour?

I do get more lift though, with the covered baking than I did when I baked them uncovered. I preheat to a very hot oven, put the bread in, in a cold covered pot, and reduce to 425 to bake.

There have been a few threads where we posted tweaks and variations, but there isn't one combined thread yet.

[Shakespeare]

2. Yes, I saw the errors list.

40 minutes isn't doing a thing for mine. I'm going to try 1.5-2 hours tonight (with the last of the dough from the first batch), and see how that does. I use KA AP (my go-to flour), and I'm pretty sure the flour's not the problem.

Edited to add: the resulting bread isn't bad, it's just so-so; if I'm going to make bread with commercial yeast, I'd rather depend on a recipe I know will dependably yield a good crumb and crust.

[Lucinda]

3. I use my oven with a light on, so I may be creating more warmth than room temp?

We keep our house fairly cool, so I chuck my breads in the oven now, with a light bulb on for the final rise. I'd say its about 70-75 in there.

So far, I have been happiest with the Pane Rustico no-knead bread. It's from No Need to Knead and is a little more time consuming, but I think it made the best loaf.

In testing untweaked no-kneads:

I tried the NYT recipe and liked the covered baking technique but found the bread dry. The crust was crispy and not too thick.

I liked the moisture level of the Ain5, but not the crust on the uncovered baking. It was too hard and thick for me.

[Shakespeare]

4. Your results with the pane rustico looked outstanding.

That's the one with the biga, correct? I'm thinking the Ain5 is a good quick & dirty recipe for people who might otherwise be intimidated by slightly more involved technique (like the pane rustico).

I'm willing to play with the Ain5 a bit more to see if I can get it to perform better.

[Lucinda]

5. Yes. It was a no-knead bread with a biga starter. So is the Pane All'Olio.

I think the no-knead recipes with the biga starters from No Need to Knead are great. They are uncomplicated, and don't take much more effort than Ain5, but produce a better bread.

What I love about the Ain5 process, is the ability to store enough dough for several loaves of bread and bake on demand. I think if we could improve the flavor a bit, it would be great. I am able to get a crust I like with covered baking. So I'm half way there with Ain5.

A few pics in case people want to compare visually:
The top two are with bigas and the bottom is Ain5


Pane All'Olio:


Pane Rustico:


Ain5:

[hippywife]

7. Some of us aren't intimidated

just don't have the time. And if I leave the dough in the refrigerator for three days and then let it rise long enough until it's kind of jiggly, it comes out with a very good flavor.

It ain't anything fancy-shmancy in the technique department, but I certainly won't sneeze at it.

[Shakespeare]

10. I didn't mean to imply that everybody is.

Heck the whole reason *I'm* doing it is as a timesaver. I'm just trying to figure out ways to improve on it.

[hippywife]

12. Yeah, we've all been doing that.

I'm adding whole wheat and semolina to mine. It's good but it doesn't rise quite like that master boule recipe.

[troubleinwinter]

6. I found that I needed to increase the rest time.

I thought it was because I have a new and very COLD fridge. So I've been letting mine go an hour- an hour and a half. My most recent loaf yesterday was reeeeeallly cold, which at least made it very easy to handle with very little flour.

Unlike you, I am a brand new bread baker. So your comment about letting it go longer at least let me feel that I'm off the hook!

I don't find the bread to be 'glorious', but certainly much better than I can find around my town. It keeps better, too, in the high desert dryness.

Our experimenting in these threads have improved it over the orginal, I think. My first loaves were flat and spreading, the bowl rest advice helped. Covered seems to work better than steam pan. Parchment better than cornmeal. It's been a fun learning experience to see what works better. For a rank beginner like me, I have learned so much, and now my 80 yr old dad has gotten into the game himself, and is now having fun, too.

The rye dill recipe that Lucinda posted was incredibly good. And simple to make for an amateur like me.

I think the great thing about it is not that it's the best bread possible, but that it is more accessible for more people to make their own, and to learn and advance. Some here are moving forward into other techniques and doing more experimenting.

So I don't think it's all about this recipe itself, but about the "process" of learning, experimenting and discussion. Not to mention fun!

Were it not for this easy method, I would never have bothered with making my own bread.

I know Peter Reinhart and his wife quite well, and was lucky to be a well-fed guinea pig while he was writing some of his books in Sonoma County. We shared Easters and Xmases and 4th of Julys, eating some of the best breads ever made. I have ALL of his books. NO WAY was I going to attempt keeping starters as pets. Way over my head! I have never been willing to knead bread! And yet, here I am baking bread, and enjoying the learning.

[Shakespeare]

8. I'm so glad you're having fun with it!!

Do NOT be intimidated by the idea of keeping a starter, though. It's no more difficult than any other bread recipe--even the Ain5. The only difference is that it has a much, much longer rising time (so it's more about patience than it is about complexity).

My starter should be developed enough to use this weekend (finally!), and I'm really chomping at the bit to make a good sourdough again.

I'm jealous of your friendship with Reinhart! He's a bread hero to a lot of us. :hi:

[troubleinwinter]

15. Have you ever made Anadama bread?

Peter and Susan were coming to my parents' house for dinner, and I arrived to find my mother pulling a loaf of Anadama from the oven. I said, "You're BAKING BREAD FOR PETER REINHART??!!!!" She said, "Sure." Hahahaha!!!!

My son-in-law is an executive chef and daughter & he were going to stay with us for a couple of months while they relocated/found a house. I was freaked at the prospect of having an executive chef watching me cook. Daughter said, "Mom, he's a GUY. He likes 'mom cooking'- pot roast and stuff." She was right, he and I had a wonderful time. I imagine Peter loved having home-made Anadama bread.

My dad has that recipe... I may just have to break my life-long rule of not kneading, cuz it sure was delicious.

I miss San Francisco sourdough desperately, being a lifelong resident, moved 3 years ago. Theeee most difficult withdrawal was the sour dough (next was good Asian foods). Your posts about your starter have got me leaning towards giving it a go!

I do wonder about one thing: 'Capturing wild yeasts'. Do you think there are any wild yeasts in the extremely DRY DRY area of the high desert mountains of Arizona? I wonder if this is why one cannot get sour dough here. Certainly mining and ranching camps are a very big part of local history, but sour dough does not seem to be mentioned (but ya can get Barry Goldwater chili mix!). I suppose I can buy starters. If I WERE to locate a SF starter, would it change by living here?

[housewolf]

25. I started baking sourdough bread at 6500' in Colorado

and didn't have any trouble capturing wild yeast. You can also obtain the heirloom "Oregon Trail Starter" that's been continuously propagated since the 1850's - it's free for a self-addressed envelope (or a small contribution if you are so inclined) and makes teriffic sourdough bread - and it's less intimidating than starting up a new starter from scratch. Actually, I think it's a good idea for new sourdough bread bakers to begin with a known starter because you'll get great results faster than starting something new when you don't know much about working with starters. Another source is Sourdoughs International (including an authentic SF starter) which markets starters they've gathered from all over the world... I'll send links for both if you want.

You can almost always get a starter started with rye flour, as Shakespeare did, or follow Peter Reinhart's raison method, or use a few unrinsed organic grapes, or follow Nancy Silverton's grape method... lots of ways to get a good starter started.

Re: whether a starter started somewhere else will change when it comes to your location... there are some folks who say that a starter will always change in a new location and then there are others who say that they've maintained their starter in it's integrity for many years without without it changing, even after bringing it from a different location. My own experience is that it's possible for a starter to keep its integrity, and it takes a fair amount of work to accomplish that. At one point I was maintaining about a dozen different starters, they all were differeent and they all were wonderful, and they all kept their integrity.

All that said, I had trouble maintaining a starter in Phoenix. I finally narrowed it down to being the water there... only bottled Arrowhead water would work, no tap water or RO water of any sort, or other bottled waters. It had to do with either the amount of chlorine in the water or the pH of the water... but you're not in Phoenix, so you probabbly won't have that problem.

You folks are insspiring me towards sourdough again... I miss working with a starter and that great bread starters make!

Edited to add: I'm jealous of your friendship with Peter Reinhart too! I did a 1-day sourdough class with him about 10 years ago and maintained the starter I got from the call for years... it was great. And HE's great, too, and his books are some of my very favorite.

[kestrel91316]

9. My only concern about these no-knead breads is texture.

The last thing in the world I want is a CRUMBLY bread - heck, if I want that I'll do a quick bread and not bother with the yeast thing. If you don't knead, how do you wake up the gluten so the texture is sort of stretchy-that-holds-together rather than crumbly??

[Shakespeare]

11. That's one of my big issues with it, too.

I like a somewhat toothier bread that what this is giving me. What I want to find out is if I can coax that out of the Ain5 recipe.

[NMDemDist2]

14. my textures are great

not crumbly at all

but I let it sit for 3-6 days in the fridge......

[troubleinwinter]

16. Mine are too. I agree, I like them best after they sit some days.

[NMDemDist2]

17. I meant let the dough sit, not the bread altho that is good too

in fact that was dinner tonite, the last of a loaf with provolone cheese under the broiler

[troubleinwinter]

19. Yeah, I shoulda said "it" (meaning batch) in fridge.

[Lucinda]

18. Yyep. I've always liked the texture too.

And on the few occasions I could get past the 3 day mark I was happier with the flavor. :D
It really does help enormously to incorporate some of the dough from the previous batch.

[troubleinwinter]

20. Well, yer always doing half batches! I do whole ones.

[Lucinda]

34. I do a lot of things half-batched.

:rofl:

[NMDemDist2]

21. i liked hippywife's suggestion of using a big beverage container to rise the dough

I'm using a slightly too small plastic container and the dough drops back down in the fridge, the sides are covered with stuff and thats what I put into the new batch

I left a batch in the fridge when I went to Nevada so it sat 7 days b4 the first loaf, the second loaf is rising now, but I add a bit of flour and water each time I grab some dough out, gives the yeast more to eat and I get a secondary rise in the fridge. when I pulled out the dough just now it had big bubbles on top from when I 'fed' it on Sunday.

the flavor I'm getting is EXCELLENT

[Lucinda]

22. Very cool!

I finally started saving a bit of the end of the batch. I'm still using a large stainless bowl for the fridge rise, and I need it occasionally for other things, so I don't have a real ongoing pool of dough to draw from. I'm planning on getting two 6 quart cambos. That should help a lot. How much extra water and flour do you add when you pull dough out?

[NMDemDist2]

27. see my post to trouble below this

it's not measured or anything, just kinda an eyeball thing

[troubleinwinter]

23. Exactly how do you do that?

"I add a bit of flour and water each time". Just sprinkled on top? Stirred in? Kinda how much?

I am using a 5 qt. container (full batch), and OMG!!!! The thing rises to the brim before fridge, sometimes in just an hour, then falls to about 1/2-2/3 in fridge. I think (?) mine rises like mad because of altitude?

[NMDemDist2]

26. ok, that's what mine does too. do you get the crackly stuff on the sides then?

that's the stuff I put in the new batch. I knock it all down in the container then do the recipe as usual right into the container on top of the crunched up crackly bits and add a touch extra water. maybe a TBSP or two

as for 'feeding' it I add a couple tablespoons (a few big pinches) and then about the same amount of water and just kinda shake it around on top after I get the dough back into the bottom

just enough to get the flour wet, i don't really stir it in really.

and not too much, I sprinkle some on the top before I dig into the dough to pull out what I'm gonna use, then I shake it back down into the bottom and add a bit more, then moisten it

it's pretty forgiving IME

[troubleinwinter]

28. This is a new concept to me....

Yes, I do scrape down the sides and incorporate into a new batch, but I think I'm starting to 'get' your "feeding" technique. Hmmmm. Hmmm!!!! How interesting. This sounds good to me.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NMDemDist2]

29. bread quits rising when the yeast runs out of 'food' (flour)

i got that from housewolf (or Alton Brown, can't remember which LOL)

so I 'feed' the yeast when the dough is sitting that long :hide:

and in a couple days I will see gas bubbles (big ones usually) on the top of the dough. I'm just super gentle when I shape the new loaf

:hi:

try it, it's pretty forgiving, just start out small yanno?

[NMDemDist2]

13. agreed on all points AND I add half the salt and always incorporate some of the old

batch into the new batch

also bake it in a dutch oven rather than mess with the water in the broiler pan nonsense AND let it set at least 3 days in the fridge or there's no taste

with those tweaks, i am consistently pleased with the results

[Shakespeare]

30. I STILL haven't tried baking in the dutch oven.

Gonna have to give that a try...

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

31. it really makes it so easy and it's perfect to get the good crust on these wet

doughs

here's a pic



and without the dutch oven using the broiler pan/water technique



and the dough, ready to start it's days in the fridge. it really makes a big difference, fresh dough is basically flavorless. i start a new batch when I shape the last loaf from the old batch

[Shakespeare]

32. That's a LOVELY crust!

You leave the lid on until the last 15-20 minutes, yes? (I'm too lazy to go google the NYT recipe, so I'm going from memory).

If you've got a restaurant supply store near you (and Costco probably has them, too), you can get the food-grade plastic containers identical to what the Ain5 authors use in their video. I got two (they come in a 2-pack) of the 6-quarter containers at Smart & Final for about $10. They really are the perfect size for The Blob.

[NMDemDist2]

33. no, the pan get preheated in the oven and the lid is removed AFTER the first 15-20 minutes

bake time and it browns up uncovered. it takes usually 40 minutes or so total, so remove the lid at 25 minutes

I miss Costco and Smart n Final :cry:

[hippywife]

41. Hey! How'd I miss this!

Looks great, S! Slice me a piece! :hug:

[NMDemDist2]

42. girl, that loaf is LONG GONE and well traveled, I took it on my trip to Nevada

it was a HUGE hit :rofl:

he wanted to know if I would FedEx him a loaf weekly

:hi:

[hippywife]

44. I'd be tempted to do it.

Anything he'll readily eat is probably worth it. :hug:

[NMDemDist2]

45. are you kidding?? the guy eats like a horse!

appetite is no problem and the latest MRI results came in this week and it's still clear.

he may outlive all of us.

:rofl:

[hippywife]

46. Well THAT IS good news!

Excellent and so glad to hear it. :bounce:

[Shakespeare]

35. 1.75 hour rise made a considerable difference last night.

Not quite the "instant" bread the authors promise, but still nice to have the dough on hand. Much, much better crumb with the longer rise. :thumbsup:

[Lucinda]

36. Cool. Thanks for the update!

I'm testing another no-knead recipe holding the second half of the dough overnight for a second days baking. It's one of the biga starter "mostly" no-knead breads.

I think we should all be able to find something that works for us, speedy bread-wise, with all these experiments going on! :)

[troubleinwinter]

37. Did you bake in a pot?

[Shakespeare]

38. no--my la Creuset-style dutch oven has a plastic knob on the lid.

I don't think it can handle the high temps. I'm toying with the idea of picking up a la Cloche, though, which I'll happily use. :hi:

[troubleinwinter]

39. An easy fix posted on this forum

Replace the plastic knob with a glass or ceramic cabinet knob.

[NMDemDist2]

40. good!

:hi:

it does make a difference for sure.

[hippywife]

43. Glad it worked out better for you!

My kitchen is pretty cold so it takes awhile for it to rise properly here, too, and that was one mistake I was making. You get great spring when you make it right after you've mixed it and let it rise for two hours before putting in the fridge, but then you don't get the flavor.

I think the instant results they refer to really means the amount of handling you have to do each time you take some of it outta the fridge.

:hi:

[Shakespeare]

47. No, they're pretty specific in the book (and correct themselves on the website) about the proofing.

40 minutes out of the fridge and into the oven, with almost no kneading. Unfortunately, I doubt most of the folks who bought the book will ever go to the website, so I imagine there are a lot of people out there not getting great results from the bread. And I think that's what irks me a little about the authors; I think they were in a hurry to get the book published (specifically on the heels of the NYT no-knead craze), and their initial effort is more gimmick than genuine baking breakthrough.

On the errors page, they correct the proofing/rise time, and the yeast quantity, and also say they may have overemphasized the "don't knead" part.

The (much) longer rising time is working much, much better for me (and I'm kneading!). :hi:

I just took another loaf out of the oven about half an hour ago--yum!

[troubleinwinter]

48. I know that Peter Reinhart has a blog community

of amateur home baker testers. Before publication of his books, for many months, they try the recipes and give feedback and discuss. This way, he is able to clarify, change or adjust to make absolutely sure the results are right for the home kitchen before going to press.

Just look at all the changes and adjustments we have made on this forum to Ain5 in a month!

I haven't seen the proofing/rise time correction on Ain5. Lucinda passed along the yeast correction. What are they saying about time? Yesterday I let it go an hour & a half... as I said, I've gotten so I don't really measure time, I feel the bowl bottom and loaf and bake it when it seems room temp. Maybe I'll let 'er go longer next time.

My last loaf of latest dough batch will go in the oven tomorrow. I'm glad, because I simply MUST do another batch of Lucinda's Rye-Dill. OMG. OMG! I NEED (not knead) some!!!!!

[Shakespeare]

49. And that's why Peter Reinhart is a bread god!

:7

I really do get the feeling that the Ain5 pair rushed theirs into print (and that may be the fault of their publisher, not them directly).

Here's the proofing correction:

1/28 - Throughout the book we tell you to let the 1 pound loaf of non-enriched doughs rest on the peel for 40 minutes. We have found that this needs to be a range closer to 40 minutes- 1 1/2 hours. The reasons are some kitchens are cooler than others and some people have a firmer hand while working and may compress the air out of the dough, both resulting in a denser crumb. If you allow the dough to rise until it is slightly wobbly it will bake up with a very nice crumb. You can bake it at 40 minutes but the crumb may be denser.

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=73

[NMDemDist2]

51. "wobbly"

yeah, I usually freak out when I slash the top, it just wants to dance and ooze off the peel

and that's when it perfect! :evilgrin:

[hippywife]

50. It's best not to go by time

but the feel of the dough, as you've said. I wait now til it's a little jiggly.

[Blues Heron]

24. I knead it a bit before final proofing

Shape out cylindrical rolled loaves, proof and bake on greased cookie sheet...

Also it's nice with some whole wheat flour - 1 to 7 whole wheat to white ratio is what i've been doing (1/2 cup whole wheat and 3 1/2 cups white in my case)

Hope you can tweak it to get some good bread! :)