I am a vegetarian who at with a vegan group for lunch. While

[schmuls]

discussing recipes, I found out that some of them do not eat honey. I wasn't sure if this was because of so much of it not being organic or or if it involved screwing with an animal. I'd like an opinion on this. Is harvesting honey harmful to bees? If so, is there a way to get honey that doesn't harm bees? I realize this sounds naive...but if any kind of honey harvesting is harmful, I don't want to eat honey.

[flvegan]

1. Oooh, did you pick the topic that splits many vegans into two camps.

Honey is not vegan. Never has been never will be. Simply, it's an animal product that is gained from the exploitation of bees. A beekeeper's operation is akin to a Nike sweatshop.

Additionally, it's been said that in some climates, each year once honey production slows the hive is killed off. It's "easier" to start over once a year than to maintain a non-productive hive system during a non production stint. Don't know if that's still true.

[schmuls]

2. Thank you, I didn't know about this controversy. I won't be eating

honey - not that I cared much for it anyway!

[LeftyMom]

3. To add to this

honey is the food supply bees build up for themselves to get through the winter. When it's taken away, it's generally replaced with a corn-syrup based replacement. Unlike honey, this does spoil, and generally is not as healthy for the bees, so fewer survive the winter.

Here's a really in depth explanation: http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

FWIW, honey is easily replaced in any recipe. Just substitute a similar quantity of agave nectar. The texture and taste are similar, and it's only slightly thinner at room temperature.

[schmuls]

4. Interesting - another example of screwing around with animals.

A vegan there said she uses agave nectar in her baking. And she said for her puddings she uses rice milk.

[Ignis]

5. Here's where eating vegan conflicts with "healthy" foods.

So very many of the "healthy" foods (read: whole-grain breads, cereals, etc.) that I find in Whole Foods and other alternative stores have honey in the ingredients. But other than the honey, most of these foods are completely vegan. So it's a real chore while traveling to finally find foods that aren't full of milk, preservatives, gelatin, etc.--only to find that the producers have used honey rather than a vegan sweetener.

Aarrgghh!

:rant:

But I'll be honest and say that honey is pretty low on my 1-100 scale of vegan sins. If the only vegan thing I can find to eat while traveling is whole-grain bread that may or may not be made with honey, I'll probably "forget" to ask if it's made with honey.

I used to be a melo-vegan ;) and didn't avoid the use of honey--not that I sought it out--but after reading some great articles that detail the waste and harm that occur during most commercial honey farming, I've tried to avoid it for the past few years.

The larger problem for me has been avoiding local bee pollen to combat seasonal allergies. That always helped with my hay fever when I lived in the Davis/Sacramento area.

[handmade34]

6. honeybees and honey from an apiarist

Hello all, I saw this post and just wanted to put my 2 cents in since I have cared for bees and eaten lots of honey. I agree with all who responded about the culture of commercial honey production. Often, honey is taken from a hive and replaced with sugar water or corn syrup. Sometimes commercial producers use chemicals in the hives to prevent/eliminate mites and other predators/diseases. Not all is well in the apiary. Most Vegans I know do not use honey. I oppose any commercial production of animals, especially for meat. I have also noticed that commercial honey in the stores is starting to be altered with sugar/corn syrup. Ugh.

If one is inclined though-- there are many small producers that harvest organic honey and do no harm to the bees in production. I do not have active beehives presently because I am working 'on the road' but for many years, I cared for bees and harvested honey and hope to again soon. One of my favorite meditations was to just sit and watch 'my' bees work. They are awesome and their social structure is fantastic. I have stood in the middle of a swarm of bees and was delighted beyond words. We absolutely NEED honeybees(along with other insects and bugs) to pollinate our flowers and fruit trees and they can be cared for and honey harvested in healthy ways. I always left plenty of honey for the bees and would not feed them chemicals. I always made sure they had plenty of food to winter over and insulated then against the cold. Pollution, chemical agriculture, cell towers, etc,.. are all doing great harm to honeybees and anything we can do to encourage healthy management of bees is positive. If you do choose to enjoy honey, find a small local producer and support them... or try it yourself, bees can be kept almost anywhere...

[Codeine]

7. I'm a bad vegan.

I just don't care about insects the way I care about other animals. I'm not defending that position, just an honest statement of fact -- I can't get all that worried about bees. :shrug:

[handmade34]

8. don't care if people eat honey or not, but...

you damn well better care about honeybees as the decline in the honeybee population affects all of the fruits and vegetables you eat!! Honeybees are one, of an important few, pollinators of plant life. This life on Earth is all a careful balance and we are incredibly short sighted when we don't use that understanding when making choices about what we eat and how we live our life.

“…This transfer of pollen from one part of a flower to another may be accomplished in several different ways, but in most orchard situations the primary agents of transfer are bees, especially honey bees… … If these conditions are not met satisfactorily or if pollen is not transferred between blossoms, little or no fruit will be set. Furthermore, insufficient pollen transfer can lead to poor fertilization of ovules, non-symmetrical fruit, and high rates of fruit drop. Many of these problems can be avoided by placing honey bee colonies in the orchard during the bloom period. The proper use and placement of honey bee colonies will help insure maximum benefits.” http://www.virginiafruit.ento.vt.edu/bees.html
"For instance, the state's $45 million apple crop -- the fourth largest in the country -- is completely dependent on insects for pollination, and 90 percent of that pollination comes from honey bees," Frazier says. "So the value of honey bee pollination to apples is about $40 million." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070422190612.htm
"Most insects tirelessly perform functions that improve our environment and lives in ways that scientists are only beginning to understand," explains entomologist John Losey of Cornell University. "Don't let the insects' small stature fool you, these minute marvels provide valuable services." http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=insects-provide-billions
“From this information, we see that if we are to continue with current agricultural practices, we will increasingly rely upon the honeybee to pollinate our crops and if people continue to eat honey, beekeepers will keep on selling honey. Although bees could be managed strictly for their pollinating ability without using their honey, this system could affect agricultural costs. How does the bee fit into this situation? Managed bees may be more likely to avoid the pesticides, mites, and disruption of their homes that typically threaten native bees. However, one reason the managed bees have a better survival rate than the native bees is that humans have interfered with the natural habitat of the native bees through the use of pesticides, forest clear-cutting, accidental introduction of parasites, and mono-agriculture. Although honey production may have been the initial reason for the importation of honeybees to America, it is no longer the sole reason that these bees are important to humans. The use of managed bees may be the only way modern agriculture can sustain itself. The question remains as to whether we could practically reintroduce a more "natural" system of pollination into our modern society.” http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj96nov/bee.htm

[Codeine]

9. I understand this, of course.

But I don't think honey production is threatening bee populations on the whole

[handmade34]

10. Sigh... you are right

overall honey production is not threatening to the bee population. Honeybees are a passion of mine and I get pretty excitable when defending them.

[Codeine]

11. For what it's worth,

your posts communicated your passion and respect for them quite beautifully. :hi:

[Ignis]

12. I do care, but...

If I'm put in a tight spot looking for something to eat while traveling, I'll pick the loaf of bread with honey over the loaf of bread with "dough conditioners" :eyes: anytime.

We all have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, but I try not to let the fact that bees aren't cute and cuddly make me forget that they're living beings.

[CrispyQ]

13. I get annoyed with the honey in health foods, too.

BTW, what the hell is dough conditioner? I see it in so many bread items & wonder what it's for. Like you, I avoid it.

I marvel that the US has come up with a food industry that provides lots of cheap food that is harmful to our health & people don't seem to care. There were a couple of threads this week about that study that showed that people who eat meat are likely die younger. My god, I couldn't beleive how many DUers still stick their head in the sand about this issue. You wouldn't know you were on a liberal board when you read meat threads.

If you can find Rudi's bread they generally don't use honey. But it's over $4 a loaf! I make really fine pizza crust - can bread be much more difficult?

[Ignis]

14. You don't want to know, trust me.

The really annoying thing about dough conditioners is that they can be made from vegetable sources. But the reality is that most commercially made breads use dough conditioners that are byproducts of the animal rending process, like sodium stearoyl lactylate or L-cysteine/cysteine/cystine.

L-cysteine used to be primarily made from human hair a few years ago--mostly from the sweepings of Chinese barber shops. Now it appears that Chinese duck feathers are one of the primary sources. Yummy!

Here's a linky to some of the more common ingredients:
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/faqingredients.htm

---

But as far as meat-eaters' resistance to veggie threads, I have trouble blaming them. Most of us were raised in societies where meat-eating is still prized as a sign of success, wealth, or potency. Given all of the "meat is good" advertising dollars that are shoveled into our kids' brains via TV, I'm amazed that anyone in the US turns vegetarian at all. And when you factor in humans' love of being part of the in-crowd (a.k.a., backing a winner), is it any wonder that meat-eaters pile on when someone challenges their core beliefs?

I look at it this way: Meat-eating is a religion, and it's very hard for people to completely distance themselves from the religion in which they were born and raised. When you say "there is no God," they're likely to get a bit grumpy when they've spent their entire lives worshiping at the altar of Meat.

There's a great book about the subject called Living Among Meat Eaters that touches on the psychology of this subject. Amazon linky: http://www.amazon.com/Living-Among-Meat-Eaters-Vegetarians/dp/1590561163/ref=ed_oe_p

:hi: