Odd Obedience experience

[Critters2]

The Vegan Beagle and I started in an obedience class tonight, to sharpen her, err, our skills. It was going okay, though I was a little bothered by the instructor's snapping of her dog's choke collar. But she didn't ask us to do so (VB doesn't wear a choke collar and never will), so I let it go. Then the dogs for the next class started coming in, and the instructor's dog, a Bouvier de Flandres, starting barking, or really, trying to bark. At first I thought the dog was hoarse or something. Then I realized....it had been de-barked!!

Does anyone else find this disturbing? I've never been around Bouviers much, but I'm on my second beagle, and I don't even find their barking such that I would de-bark them. I tend to think of debarking as a sign that someone either chose the wrong breed for their situation, doesn't really like dogs, or can't control their dog through better methods. Either way, I find this disturbing in an obedience instructor.

Her dog is an obedience champion--ODX, I think. It occurred to me, driving home, that, with all the AKC's rules, do they actually give titles to dogs who've been debarked? I mean, isn't that a form of mutilation? The AKC doesn't even want titled dogs to be spayed or neutered. But de-barking is okay?!

Anyway, I just wondered what others thought. I think de-barking is cruel, but it's upsetting at another level knowing that someone who's teaching obedience had it done. Isn't it?

[laheina]

1. The old school way of training is to use a choke chain

or a training collar. When I was little, this was how I was taught to do it; however, I have since come to realize that fear/pain based discipline is not only somewhat lazy, but it is not the way that I would ever want one of my dogs to relate to me. I would never spank my son, and I don't use those methods on my dogs.

Likewise, I put debarking in the same category as de-clawing of cats. My mother uses an apt analogy for the latter; she says that it would be the human equivalent of cutting fingers off at the first knuckle. My vet wholeheartedly agrees with her. These are extreme measures that are taken by people that are more concerned with convenience than their animal companion.

I do find it disconcerting that your trainer uses these methods. When my mother started training her German Wirehair, she had the most awesome trainer. He was a young guy, and used newer methods, but I was really amazed at how often he would relate the dog's behavior to the breed with clever work arounds for each dog's idiosyncrasies. It was also pretty fun to watch. :)

It's also cute that you call your doggie the Vegan Beagle. :hi:

[BrklynLiberal]

2. I would also be appalled at a trainer whose dog was debarked.

Aside from the inhumane aspect of it, what does it say about the trianer's ability if he felt he had to "debark" his dog, rather than to be able to train it to respond to his command not to bark.

It gives me the creeps.

I have learned a lot about dealing with my big baby boy, German Shepherd by watching The Dog Whisperer. It is on The National Geographic Channel on Fridays and on Mondays or Tuesdays.
If it does not actually show you how to deal with your pup, it will show you how a good trainer should treat you and your pup.

[ThomCat]

3. That was my first thought.

If he can't train his dog to stop barking then how good a trainer can he possibly be?

If his idea of training included mutilating your dog and choking him/her repeatedly then do you really want to learn his methods?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

9. I remember taking our German Shepherd to obedience.

We used a choke collar on her, but we almost never actually had to pull on it. However, the trainer wanted all of the dogs to wear a German-pinch collar. Picture rows of spikes pinching their necks. She put one on our dog once and started jerking her around (when she wasn't doing anything wrong) to prove it wouldn't hurt her. Our dog started shaking and crying and was always scared of the trainer after that. We went back to using the choke collar, which she wasn't freaked out by. She ended up being the only dog in the class that didn't have a pinch collar, even a tiny Cairn had one. There was another German Shepherd and a Boxer in the class that were fine dogs at the beginning but by the end, were biting at their owners everytime the owner pulled their spiked collar. It was sick.

[Critters2]

10. I'm not surprised the dogs were biting at their owners

after all that. By doing something cruel, the owners had shown they couldn't be trusted.

VB is enjoying our new class--she gets treats!! this past week she did the longest down-stay she's ever done. And when I released her, she came running and stuck her nose in the pocket where the treats were.

Much better than a choke collar!

[CrispyQ]

4. This thread has a link to an online petition to sign

regarding de-barking:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=231x12750

[flvegan]

5. Well, here's my take

The obedience teacher, as a person towards animals, is a bitch*. Her dog might be an obedience champion, and she might be the best teacher in the world, but obedience training skills don't make her a decent person as far as animals are concerned. Many of these folks see dogs as little more than a lump of clay that they've molded into an obedient sculpture. Things to use to ply a trade.

Also remember, the AKC doesn't care about cosmetic mutilation. They don't demand that ears/tails be cut, but it is part of the unspoken breed standard. You won't see too many champion dobies, danes or rotties that are left natural.

Personally, I wouldn't give her my money, but that's a judgment call (me, judging her). It may not be right, but it would be my choice.

*I say this not knowing the dog's situation. Maybe adopted as a debarked dog, maybe had a neurological issue or other problem that made debarking necessary. Maybe she didn't know better at the time and would never do it again.

[Critters2]

6. I'm switching trainers

The VB does need a bit more obedience work. She goes NUTS when we're walking and she sees another dog. It's actually being friendly, in her own beagly way, but it scares the owners of other dogs. We don't feel altogether welcome in our local park. She's been through obedience work before, and really likes doing it. She seems to like having "work" to do, and she's really smart--for a beagle :)

BUt this is not the trainer for us. So, I called another one. She's a bit further away, but impressive. She did a program at my church a few months ago, about her work training service dogs. She had a dog with her--a 1 year old lab--who was really well-behaved.

I called her last night, and sort of "interviewed" her. She doesn't use choke collars,or Gentle Leaders, only flat collars. She says dogs don't like chokes or head halters, so she won't use 'em. She gears training to the specific breed of the dog--more food-based rewards for beagles, etc. Her training is reward-based positive reinforcement, with a tapering off of the rewards as the dog progresses. This is the technique used with my first beagle, and he was great! She does a lot of education about pack mentality, the guardian as "alpha", etc. Also does education about dog health and well-being as part of the class. Doesn't do competition, trains dogs "to live with their families". We're switching!

Now I just have to get the courage to ask for my money back.

Thanks for all your feedback! The Vegan Beagle is grateful!

[BrklynLiberal]

8. Great decision. The new trainer sounds llike a vast improvement.

:thumbsup:

[CountAllVotes]

7. I started the thread on the petition to say NO to debarking

As you can see/hear, it is EXTREMELY cruel!

And for some icing to the cake, many of these "rescue" groups that rescue certain breeds of dogs debark them before they even TRY to find them homes. I don't think these "rescue" groups that do this to a dog are doing the dog a favor on any level whatsoever.

I hope that you sign the petition on NO to debarking a dog. I too have witnessed it and it is horrific. We really do live in a very sick society. If you scroll back and read some of the prior people that have signed the petition, some are from outside of the USA and they are horrified to learn this is going on here in the USA.

This is another very ugly and very black mark for America (far beyond a "stain") - this time in the name of a powerless animal known as a dog. I rather think they do not allow de-clawing of a cat in these other countries either which is a similar if not even worse abuse to an animal.

As for the "trainer" - I'd stop payment on that check if not cashed and report her to the local humane society. I'd look for other obedience classes in your area. That does not sound like the kind of "trainer" I'd want! :grr:

CAV

:kick:

[Critters2]

11. I signed it. Thanks for posting it! n/t