Question on how to defend abortion rights in conservative areas

[IrishDemocrat]

Hello. I understand there are some strong pro-choice activists on these forums. I am a Young Democrat from Northeast Philadelphia, which is a somewhat socially conservaive, Catholic, traditional "neighborhood-parish" area. I don't like mentioning abortion rights that much, but I often find myself doing so as a Democrat among the types of people I just mentioned. Even when I give some of the ebst arguments such as safety and not interfering with indivdual rights, I often find myself short. Even though their argument is simply "abortion is murder", they somehow make it seem I'm a horrible advocate for murder. My argument is usually "you don't know the person's situation hence it's called pro-CHOICE not pro-abortion." I am more than willing to go to bat through some very tough pitches by Catholic zealots in my area and any help would be very valuable. Tahnks.

[aquart]

1. Anti-abortion is de facto white slavery.

Draconian anti-abortion laws are the source of young, white prostitutes, favored by middle-aged legislators and lobbyists. Desperate young women forced to leave home, family, and friends for places where they fall into the hands of predators....THIS is the result of anti-abortion "morality:" FRESH YOUNG PROSTITUTES WHO WOULD NEVER OTHERWISE HAVE ENTERED THE OLDEST PROFESSION.

Out of the choir, onto the streets. That's what we're really discussing.

[murielm99]

2. Ask those "abortion is murder" people if there is any

circumstance under which an abortion is acceptable. Is it acceptable if there has been incest, or if the mother and fetus will both die without an abortion? See what conditions they put on it. Then ask them if abortion is murder, why is it okay to murder sometimes, and not others?

They have no idea when human life begins. Are two cells human life? Is a six week old fetus human life? They have no way of knowing. And they have no right to force their arbitrary definitions on anyone else.

It is very simple. If you don't like abortion, then don't have one.

[Justitia]

3. I grew up where you are, so I understand

Some of these people you will never reach (until someone in their family needs an abortion).

For the others:

I consider the woman's right to her own body to be paramount to all others. A woman's body is NOT gov't property.

The alternative is throwing women in JAIL for having abortions - which they will continue to do.

Women will suffer and die obtaining illegal abortions - which they will continue to do.

But mostly, a woman's reproductive life is her own private business. No one has any right to intrude on her privacy or tell her what to do with the rest of her life.

I would ask them these questions:

"So, you would rather a woman suffer and die from an illegal abortion?"

"You would rather see women imprisoned for illegally ending a pregnancy?"

"Isn't this really about controlling the sex lives of women, exerting rigid control over their bodies - which cannot be done to men in any way whatsoever?"

In those Catholic dominated societies, it is NOT about the "babies", it really IS about SEX, PUNISHMENT AND CONTROL.

And TRUST ME - they ALL have some piece of their own dirty sex secrets hidden away! Good luck.

[IrishDemocrat]

9. The last line...

REALLY hits home here. It is a sad fact that many of the girls from the local Catholic high schools have pregnancy rates of 20-30% by senior year. Yet out in the suburbs it's minimal. This is due to the "abstinence-only" education and facist organizations such as "Generation Life" getting quality time to speak at these schools. I went to an all boys school myself and in our cafeteria we had a huge poster with a full term infant saying "VERDICT: INNOCENT, SENTENCE: DEATH." IHMO, it's shameless, oversimplified propaganda these kids are being forcefed, yet at the same time- THEY STILL HAVE SEX! IIRC, my school had about 20 out of 200 (10%) who were fathers at graduation and this is only the guys' school.

[Justitia]

11. I attended all girls Catholic school (St Huberts)

and that is why I made the comment. Lots of pregnant girls. We were taught nothing of sex ed except "don't do it". And if you did do it, there was no support system to teach you anything about your own body or what to do.

Although it seems laughable to me now, the first time I had sex, I wasn't even sure I had "done it", due to my woeful lack of knowledge concerning my own physical anatomy - how's that for "completely in the dark"???

Egads...

[illflem]

4. Just wait

once they claim to have discovered a "gay gene" then abortion will suddenly become ok.

[DrRang]

5. If you outlaw abortion . . .

If you outlaw abortion, only outlaws will perform abortions.

Or say, "So you're a strong supporter of supplying adequate information and contraception to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies?" If they say no, then try a riff on "Well, this must be about something other than saving all the little fetuses? Right?"

Also, good framing language is "forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term" rather than "protecting your unborn child" (or your unborn Harvard graduate, or whatever)

[no_hypocrisy]

6. Actions speak louder than words. Organize a taxi/escort service

for women to women's health centers in order to blunt the mob harassment waiting at the entrance. And hand out your own literature for women's choice to the antichoice protesters as well.

[MHalblaub]

7. Promote abortion through enforcing the "just wait!" joke.

Why do most women abort?

Shame or social security.

[MHalblaub]

8. Adopting is not a valid answer.

Just look at what this thread is about:

"Foreigners Adopting More African-American Babies "-- VOA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1273679

[IrishDemocrat]

10. This is all good stuff.

I'll be sure to use some of this in future arguments. Speaking of where I live, it's funny Allyson Schwartz is our Congresswoman. Yet, I was recently talking to someone big on her campaign and that person told her to "keep her socially liberal policies on the down low" through Northeast Philadelphia. Man, I thought her 23 point victory here was a mandate and I said that to the person, but the person (not going to say name) said it was all straight Dem voting and plain old ABB. If I need to enlighten these people, I will!

[Justitia]

12. I supported her via Emily's List!

I was sooo proud of her winning that election. Emily's List worked very, very hard for her campaign, it was great to see it pay off.
She is a PROUD pro-choicer, pro-woman.

You are very fortunate to have her represent you :)

[MountainLaurel]

13. Show them pictures like this *warning*

http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/

And ask if this is what they want for THEIR daughters, and sisters, and mothers, and wives?

THIS is what criminalizing abortion means -- killing women, not saving "babies".

[seventythree]

14. My only success has been arguing

about government's role in our lives. Since not all religions believe that a human being is formed at conception, shouldn't the government allow this decision to between a woman and her God? If the government can take away this right, then it can tell you how you should practice your faith, too. If the government can tell you what medical procedures you are allowed to have, what prevents it from determining that cardiac by pass will only be done on 30 yr olds and younger? Those who can understand that birth control pills are abortifacients often feel a little differently on the whole debate when they realize that their pills will be banned if the Human Life Amendment becomes law. Sometiems if you just aske what they think about birth control pills will open it up to educate them about the real agenda.

[Warpy]

15. Arguing big, evil gummint is occasionally effective.

After all, a bunch of politicians who decide they can forbid abortion today can decide to compel them tomorrow. The one lesson we know about these guys is that they'll use any power they get any way they can.

[seventythree]

16. I sometimes use the Hitler analogy

He enforced abortion laws (even though they were technically illegal in German, they were not prosecuted)and where did it end -- breeding farms forcing Aryan girls to mate with the SS. A woman was just a breeder for the state -- that is how he saw it.

[Asirac]

17. Go here

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/reprod/littmanabortion

[politicat]

18. Okay, In HS I was pro-choice in the town that prints the pro-birth crap.

If you've ever seen the little feet pins... I knew the woman who invented them. So to say the least, I've gotten some practice.

You start with the safety net concept. You wouldn't let your daughter walk a tight rope without training and a safety net, would you?

When they agree to that, you use the analogy for abortion. Okay, your daughter gets married, gets pregnant, and all of a sudden, they discover that the baby is dying, fetal surgery won't save it. It's going to have to be removed with a procedure that's a lot like an abortion. You'd let her have that, would you not? They usually agree.

Next step is anacephaly. The baby probably won't survive birth, will definitely die within hours of birth. Would you let your daughter risk her own death - because giving birth is very dangerous with an anacephaly baby, since the skull is more prone to breakage which can lead to maternal lacerations, and dangerous in general. Would you let her and her doctor make the decision to have an abortion to preserve her life? In general, they'll agree.

Next step is to convince them of the reality about adoption: that, while babies are in demand, the babies that are in demand are white babies. That it's racially driven, and racism isn't the right motivation to have a baby and give it up for adoption, is it? That may be harder, but with some people it works. (And I have stats on that - non-white infants and non-white mothers are often rejected from the private adoption agencies.)

The final step is to ask why this individual thinks s/he has the right to make a medical decision for someone like the mother of the dying baby. Would the person you're talking to make a decision for someone else's kidneys? Hammer on the fact that it's a medical decision, just like deciding to have a surgery or not.

Take it slow. The above can take weeks, if not months. You take it in baby steps. Once you get them agreeing that abortion can be right in some circumstances, you can usually get them to get to a point where they will agree that they don't have the right to make that decision for someone else.

Good Luck!

[Jamastiene]

19. With some people, it's better to leave it be.

It's better to pick your fights in a conservative area. I live in one too. And you should always point out that you aren't advocating abortion as a form of birth control, but as a last resort when birth control doesn't work or when there is a medical condition involved. If you frame the debate the right way with them, it stuns the into silence, but those types that call you a murderer will never listen to reasonable thoughts on the subject. You might as well talk to a brink wall in those cases.

[catzies]

20. See,both sides want fewer abortions-only 1 side wants to make them illegal

which WON"T STOP THEM.

It's really that simple.

President Clinton said abortion needs to be "Safe, legal and rare."

And to that I'd like to add PRIVATE.

It's a medical procedure everyone thinks they have the right control. These things used to be private and personal. I for one would like a return to that.

That's why they got on your case for being pro-choice, even though that is illogical. For their strategy to work, it has to be black/white, right/wrong. You can't even be neutral, which is what pro-choice actually is! You're leaving other people alone, to do what they see fit with their life that doesn't affect you. They can't stand that, so if you're not with them, you're against them.

Point out to them how illogical they are and watch their heads explode.

[TaleWgnDg]

21. As a lawyer who assists pregnant teenagers get legal abortions

.
As a lawyer who assists pregnant teenagers get legal abortions through the courts, I can say legally and literally: WHO would stand for allowing a government to demand that you remain pregnant?

Government should intrude upon YOUR body? YOUR autonomy? YOUR present and future family plans? Your sense of "self," your sense of "being" who and what you are. Your future potentialities? Your financial ability to support yourself and that of your family including other children?

It's insidious! unconscionable! OUTRAGEOUS!


KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OFF MY BODY


*



illegal abortions = death



back-alley illegal abortions = death

___________________________________________________
* SCOTUS recently ruled that the juvenile death penalty was unconstitutional u/ the 8th A's "cruel and unusual punishment" clause.

[cap]

22. talk about :

women's death in pregnancy... if a baby starts to die inside a woman it emits toxins that kill a woman... what should a woman do in this circumstance. You cant do a cesarean to force early delivery, there isnt enough time. You are talking about taking action very quickly.

Incest and rape. Is the morning after pill really murder?

What about good old Andrea Yates? Forcing a woman to carry a pregancy to term who is incapable of caring for it.

what about mentally retarded and deformed babies?

What about the 20-30% pregancy rate of your neighbor's kids... just say no didnt work. It's not healthy to have kids too young.