Is this rape?

[Samurai_Writer]

I'd like to get opinions on the following scenario. Thanks.

Guy meets girl and asks her out. After checking the guy's public records out, she accepts. Comes over to pick her up. However, the weather is bad, so girl invites guy to watch movie at her house instead.

Girl goes into the bathroom, and when she comes out, guy has found a porn movie in her collection (usually put away elsewhere, but forgot to) and has put it in to watch. Girl goes over to TV and takes out DVD, telling the guy she thinks it is rude of him to select that movie. He responds, "We're all adults, what's the problem." Girl insists they watch another movie, and puts something else in (a PG-13 movie).

Sitting on the sofa, they are talking. Guy says a couple of rude things, and when the girl calls him on it, he says "Oh, I was just teasing." Girl gives the guy another chance. Watching movie, girl shifts on the sofa because her back hurts (old car accident). Guy offers to rub her back. She tentatively accepts, and lays face down so he can do so. He starts to rub her back.

Her shorts are baggy, and he starts to go lower, his fingers penetrate her. She tells him to stop and she doesn't want to do that. He says he knows she wants it. He turns her over (much bigger and stronger than she is) and pulls down her clothes. She continues to tell him no and to stop, but he pretends not to hear. He has very rough intercourse with her, injuring her back further, along with hurting her inside. The entire time she is saying 'no no no' and 'stop'.

After he finishes, he acts as if they just had consensual sex and that she enjoyed it. Says he will be coming back for more. He finally leaves. Girl is in pain the rest of the night and for the next few days. She avoids answering her phone, as he keeps calling her.

[MrModerate]

1. Pretty much a no-brainer. YES! n/t

[tx_dem41]

2. It's rape.

She should call the police.

[Samurai_Writer]

4. It's been 3 days

and there is no physical evidence left. It would basically be her word against his.

[rooboy]

8. It's rape and she should still call the police.

At the very least they will have to question the guy, which might at least scare him enough to not pull that sort of shit on anyone again. You never know, he might admit to the facts and implicate himself.

[Samurai_Writer]

11. Or it might just piss him off

And come back after her. He was rather threatening, after all, when he left.

[TBreeze]

25. It's rape

Isn't it possible there'd be bruising or injuries inside that a doctor could see during an examination, even if it's been 3 days? And he's been calling since then, so he couldn't deny he knew her or say he was never there. Even if she decides not to press charges (I really think she should though), she needs to see a doctor to be tested for stds. I'd advise her to call a rape crisis center and get some help.

[Warpy]

50. Vaginal tears and bruising will be evident

even after 3 days, although some will have healed by then. Forcing sex on a woman who doesn't want it does internal damage. Rape is violence, and a physician trained in obtaining the evidence (like most ER docs) will be able to detect it.

That will be sufficient for the cops to pick the guy up and question him. It probably isn't enough to win a case, but it will start a paper trail on the guy and the next woman he rapes (and they are generally repeaters) may get to an ER right afterwards with fresh evidence, present in the form of hair even if he uses a condom and traceable through DNA.

Sometimes the best you can hope for is to start the process of getting these assholes off the street. That first contact paper trail may be just what a prosecutor needs to nail the next case down tight.

[forgethell]

39. It's rape.

But why did she wait 3 days??

[Samurai_Writer]

40. Rape victims usually are in shock afterwards

Three days is pretty darn quick to be able to tell anyone about the incident, actually. Some women won't say anything for years, because of the guilt, denial, and shock.

[forgethell]

44. I see. Thank you.

Still, it does make it very difficult to obtain justice. Even rapists are entitled to a fair trial, and 'he said, she said' is very weak evidence indeed.

If I were on a jury, I might believe the woman, but I wouldn't consider my opinion of her veracity to be "beyond a reasonable doubt", and I suspect most other fair-minded folk wouldn't, either.

[Samurai_Writer]

45. Which is exactly why she is not reporting it

Too many people have the same attitude as yours. People spout off 'No means no', but then when a woman is brave enough to go through the humiliation and stress of filing charges and going to court, she suddenly needs to have practically killed the guy to try to get away from him before a judge or jury will believe she was really raped.

[forgethell]

49. I never said that.

I never thought that. What I do think is this. Women have been known to lie about such things. Perhaps it isn't extremely common, but it happens. In our justice system the defendant gets the benefit of this doubt.

[slor]

3. Of course it is...

and anyone that says otherwise is a POS.

[Political_Junkie]

5. No means No period.

.

[cornermouse]

6. Someone should call the police and report this.

Someone might find out this guy already has a record of doing this.

[Samurai_Writer]

10. She checked his criminal record before agreeing to the date

He had no criminal record. That doesn't mean he hasn't been arrested but never convicted, though.

[wakeme2008]

18. Ah the great Hillsborough Sheriff's Office.

Now if more counties where like this

http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/Page_Headers/online.htm

:)

[wakeme2008]

7. Yes but would lose at trial....

The Porn movie makes this a loser. IMHO....

[punpirate]

14. Disagree....

Viewing of porn movie a decision made by the guy. Objected to by woman and reversed by woman. All further action against objections by woman, including strong denials by her.

No question, advances unwelcome and resisted. Non-consensual sex.

[wakeme2008]

15. She said He said She loses

Did she have a porn movie out as one of the selections for the night's viewing.... Yes.....

Did she after watching some of the porn movie allow him to give her a "back rub" .... Yes....

It is only her word that she ever said No... But providing a porn movie for the night's selection is what makes this a loser for her....

[Samurai_Writer]

17. Also, this happened in Florida...

so she knows without a doubt the case would probably never even get to trial. Which is why she has not reported it. That, and out of fear of retaliation from him.

[cornermouse]

21. So she's going to spend the rest of her life being afraid of him?

I don't think so. That's no way to live.

[Samurai_Writer]

30. No, not for the rest of her life.

But she's not going to PROVOKE the guy into coming back and doing something even worse. She got the impression he was the type who would become violent if provoked. And charging him with rape would definitely provoke him.

[punpirate]

19. On the first point...

... that's not stated. It was available but not prominently displayed, as an enticement, according to the description.

Second, the film, in the context of the situation was objectionable, and she said so, explicitly. Backrub immaterial in that context.

On the last point, she didn't "provide" a porn movie. According to description, it was sought out by male guest among other tapes available, but not prominently displayed.

Yes, it is her word against his in this regard, and the lack of physical exam makes the question more difficult, but there is the principle of presumption of protection of self. To establish deceit on her part, one would likely have to first offer a motive for her deception. From the description, there is none apparent.

Cheers.

[wakeme2008]

23. I said it was rape BUT a good defense attorney would eat her alive in

court...

Add to what I have said --- One FIRST date she admits to suggesting they stay in her home.. Add porn movie and back rub... These are things a defense attorney only dream to know about.....

Finally add she did not call the Police the minute he left and you have a loser in Court and the DA's office.....

[punpirate]

27. Maybe...

... so. As I suggest, there are blanks here. Here's the rub. We only have one side of this event. Under normal circumstances, the woman, feeling with some surety that she had been the victim of date rape, and feeling sure of her position, would formally file charges.

At that point, the purported attacker would be detained and his statement taken, and the two statements would be forwarded to a district attorney's office for evaluation. It would be up to the DA to decide if to take that evidence to a grand jury (it being a capital crime). At that point, the details of the two statements would be gauged for relative concurrence or lack of it. The presumed victim would be called to testify to the grand jury, as might be the suspect.

On the basis of the two statements, whatever forensics were available, if any, and the testimony, the grand jury, if possible, would determine probable cause for indictment.

Then, and only then, would a defense attorney be able to build the sort of case you describe. The rest would depend upon the jury's perception of in-court testimony and whatever other evidence might be available.

In truth, because there's only one side of the story available, we can't adequately judge probable cause. A corresponding statement from the suspect would have to be available for scrutiny and comparison with the presumed victim's statement.

It's not easy to establish guilt in such a case, I admit. A good criminal lawyer could establish doubt. But, bringing such a case to trial would depend on the degree and kind of disparities in the statements of the two people involved. Big disparities, on the details, would favor the victim and probably ensure an indictment. At that point, as you suggest, a good criminal lawyer could create doubt, but after that, who knows? Too many details lacking to say much more than that.

Cheers.

[lukasahero]

29. So a woman can't even own a porno movie without it meaning that

she "consented" to having sex? Oh please.

[Stand and Fight]

75. What an idiotic statement!

Just because this jerk invaded her privacy and popped in a porn movie, does not mean a fucking thing. How dare you even insinuate something so debased of rational thought? This first-class jerk pops in a movie, she says no... Good grief. This is not a "loser" in any court of reason or law.

[verdalaven]

9. Absolutely, this is rape.

[blueknight]

13. girl should answer call,

talk to him and record it, and then bait him into talking about it. then go to police. i dont know if it would work, but at least if he is indicted the rotten bastard would have to spend a TON of money for lawyers.

[elehhhhna]

31. My thoguhts exactly. Get a record of his harrassing calls for the

restraining order...

[LeighAnn]

12. Yes, but it would be hard to convict

Might be worth a shot, though. A rape charge might be pled down to some lesser type of sexual assault, which would get the creep put on the Sex Offender registry.

Female better get herself to a doctor and fast. If she's not pregnant and doesn't have AIDS or and STD she needs to sit down and count her blessings, and work out safer dating strategies.

1. Don't invite fellows you don't know too well into your home (in spite of the records check)

2. Hide your porn

3. Throw the guy out at the first sign of "rudeness"

4. No back rubs on the first date or with any guy you wouldn't want to have sex with. They always lead to hard-ons.

5. Learn self-defense strategies (that guy should have been racked and his nuts given a good hard squeeze which might give the girl time to get to the phone - 911)

If this poor gal hasn't been to a Dr. I feel so sorry for her. I would feel horribly sorry for such a person anyway.

[Samurai_Writer]

16. That advice is a bit late

Obviously she knows NOW what she should have done. However, she was more concerned about not ending up in a wheel chair for life (because of the severe back problems and his chance of injuring her MORE if she resisted).

[Hello_Kitty]

26. Respectfully,

I submit that I understand you mean well with the suggested strategies but they really aren't anything that most women over the age of 12 already know. Sorry but the overall effect of including them in your post is the perpetuation of blaming victims for the acts of their attackers.

1. What gives a fellow I invite into my home the idea that I'm agreeing to have sex with him?

2. What gives him the idea that I am willing to have sex with him because I have porn?

3. I agree with throwing a guy out at the first sign of rudeness. But far too many women are incapable of putting this into practice, given the way we are socialized from birth to be "nice", accomodating, and deferential to males. Perpetrators know this and take advantage of it.

4. So what if he's got a hard-on from a backrub? Guys can get hard-ons in the absence of any physical stimulation.

5. Okay, self defense strategies are good for anyone to learn but maybe she wouldn't have gotten to the phone to dial 9-11 after using them on him. Then what? We weren't there, she was. Maybe she sensed that it would be safer to not struggle against him physically.

I'm not flaming here, I just want to point out that placing the responsibility for avoiding rape on the shoulders of it's potential victims is unproductive. If all women were to follow your suggestions perfectly, rapists would simply change their tactics. Rape occurs because the rapists can do it and because the shitty legal system lets most of them get away with it, not because women need better dating strategies.

[mermaid]

33. So, A Hard-On Excuses Men From Everything??

Horse SHIT!
This is rape, pure and simple.

And let me tell you, men can get a hard-on from literally just about ANYTHING. don't even have to be a back-rub.

Hell, lots of guys wake up in the morning with a goddamn HARD-ON. does that mean they are excused of all their intolerable behavior, because they had a hard-on?

Far as I'm concerned, if he has that much of a hard-on, then he needs to go home, jerk off, take a cold shower, and come back when he's ready to think with his big head, and not his little one.

[LeighAnn]

54. A Word to the Wise

Of course a hard on doesn't excuse criminal behavior.

Trouble is, we've gotten so far away from the days of "blaming the victim" that nobody is telling our girls and women the facts, i. e., the world is FULL of perverts and if you let a sex offender get you in a compromising situation you run the risk of being sexually assualted.

The scenario described above was one in which many red flags were raised. Not to blame the victim, but every girl needs to know:

DON'T LET STRANGE MEN INTO YOUR HOME Get to know a person first

DON'T INTRODUCE PORN ON THE FIRST DATE especially if you're in your home with a man you don't know

DO NOT TOLERATE DISRESPECT If this is how he acts on the first date, when a decent man would be on his best behavior, it won't get any better

DON'T LET A STRANGE, RUDE MAN RUB YOUR BODY because there are a lot of perverts out there, and women in America get raped every day

FIGHT BACK AND CALL THE POLICE

This is sound advice that my grandmother would have advocated and I will stand by it. It's not blaming the victim, it sensible advice for a girl who doesn't want to get raped.

Sadly, this is the only message many of today's girls get

[Samurai_Writer]

60. Wow, I'm sure she wishes you were there to tell her what to do

DON'T LET STRANGE MEN INTO YOUR HOME Get to know a person first

How long does it take to get to 'know' someone? She had done the responsible thing and had him checked out before agreeing to the date.

DON'T INTRODUCE PORN ON THE FIRST DATE especially if you're in your home with a man you don't know

Who the fuck introduced porn? It was left out on accident. It's not like she said "oooh, let's watch this porn, OK?"

DO NOT TOLERATE DISRESPECT If this is how he acts on the first date, when a decent man would be on his best behavior, it won't get any better

Agreed, but many women are taught to 'be nice'. It's hard to overcome that built-in behaviour after years of training to act a certain way.

DON'T LET A STRANGE, RUDE MAN RUB YOUR BODY because there are a lot of perverts out there, and women in America get raped every day

Wow, this smacks so much of 'blame the victim' I can't even garner a response.


FIGHT BACK AND CALL THE POLICE

The police will tell you, if you feel like fighting back would make it worse, DON'T FIGHT BACK. Do what you have to do to survive the incident. Even if it means NOT fighting back. A woman cannot safely fight back in every situation.

[LeighAnn]

62. You're right.

Let me add one more bit of advice for young ladies: Always lock your doors and windows. Not because if you don't it will be your fault if you get raped, but because there are perverts all over and they will rape you and kill you if they want to. Don't give them any opportunities.

The father of the missing high school grad in Aruba was on TV the other night hoping she was messed up somewhere in a crack house.
Pretty sad, huh? Did she know all about perverts and strangers and what-not? Nobody is telling it like it is.

Listen up, any girl reading this... don't be naive. Be extra extra safe in all your dealings with men you don't know, "background search" or no. Take every precaution EVERY DAY to make sure that you are not the victim of a sexual assault.

[LeighAnn]

63. I wish I would have been there

If I had been there to tell her what to do she wouldn't have gotten raped that night. And if you are the female in this story and this happened to you, I hope to God you're okay. I would never blame you for getting assaulted by this rapist, I wish I would have been there. Jesus.

If this happened to you, would it happen a second time?

Is there anything wrong with the advice I gave? The advice wasn't intended for the hypothetical victim...it was for other females who might not be so wise to the ways of d'head rapists.

Was it bad advice?

[lukasahero]

71. There's nothing wrong with your advice

Hi LeighAnn, I don't recognize your name - which means nothing in the scheme of things because it's not like I know everybody or anything but it might mean that you aren't familiar with all that's been going on in these parts lately. This forum in particular has become a stomping ground for folks who want to place responsibility for everything negative that women face in our society on the women who face it rather than on the people who perpetrate it.

Your words of advice are sound but given that they come after the girl mentioned in the OP has been raped, it does sound a little like you were blaming her for being stupid enough to get raped. With so many here now in "hyper-alert" status, I'm afraid you might have gotten caught in the cross-fire.

Yes, women should protect themselves every day. Yes, we should be smart. But no, we should never, ever, ever get raped because we let our guard down for a moment. We should be vigilant but men shouldn't rape us if we have a moment of weakness and actually trust a man. I wonder how many guys reading this understand that's how we live now when they complain about us not being open and welcoming their advances?

[artfan]

20. YES

It is rape what to do however is another matter. If she does not want to report it she should at least get help from a rape crisis center. She should take his call to let him know he did not intimidate her. I think he is a sicko who gets off on frightening people. Start logging calls etc. it will be difficult to get him on rape charges but not to difficult to get a restraining order for stalking.

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Absolutely

Classic "date rape" scenario. Awful, just awful. The really fucked up thing is that he probably does this type of thing all the time. Either that fuckwit has never encountered an actual willing partner, mistaking any social courtesy from a date as consent to sex OR he's a deliberate predator. Unfortunately, most of his victims and a lot of other people won't even consider it rape because, you know, "she invited him in and let him give her a backrub" etc.

I'm bracing myself right now for the inevitable posts on this thread from assholes defending him and questioning her behavior. Screw that. And please spare us your opinions on what she should have said or done in the situation. Every victim of sexual assualt plays and replays the incident in her mind and blames herself for it as it is. But then you have to contend with the goddamn Greek Chorus of the Clueless weighing in with how it's your fault too. Fuck that.

[MemphisTiger]

24. Yes it's rape

once she says no and he continues, it's rape. What a piece of crap. She should still call the police.

[lukasahero]

28. What part of "no" even makes this a question? eom

[elehhhhna]

32. a visit to a rape crisis center will help her, and assist in her going

forward. They'll know her options better than we do...

[elehhhhna]

34. She could always invite him back and have a few dudes waiting for him.

Maybe he needs an "intervention". Nasty thought, but it could happen.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

48. Things HE SHOULD have learned:

* Behave appropriately when invited into someone's home.

* Don't rummage through your host's things while they are in the restroom, and presume to unilaterally change the evening's entertainment.

* Don't assume that a woman will put out on the first date.

There. Is that really so hard for a man to learn and follow?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

52. Excuse me? She put out on the first date?????

Where did you get that from?

[Lars39]

56. Being raped *is not* "putting out on a first date".

Good grief.

[lukasahero]

57. One would think that wouldn't have to be said

but thanks for saying it. You showed remarkable tact that I could not have managed.

[Bunny]

59. I was attempting to get him to come right out and say it.

Ignorant twit.

[undergroundpanther]

36. Take the asshole out

No means NO..And if a dumb male does not understand no,he is a menace.. so cut it OFF ,so he can't rape anyone else.Push out his eye balls if he forces.
Never trust men with entitlement additudes about sex like that they are bullies. I think all rapists should be locked up forever or castrated.
They abuse sexuality,and thier penis is a weapon.Disarm the piece of shit than.

Fighting back is legal self defense.

[mermaid]

46. I Agree

and don't throw the severed part out of a car, where it could be recovered, and re-attached. Fucking tie it to a goddam helium balloon and send the bastard up.

Good luck finding it, twerp!

I say any man who is going to rape a woman (and in my book rape is proceeding when the woman says NO) should have his damn pecker cut off...and sent up into the wild blue yonder on the end of a helium balloon.

[bertha katzenengel]

65. helluva waste of good helium

[elehhhhna]

37. Ladies: Your (our) legs are very strong! Get down and KICK THE BEJABBERS

out of your assailant. It's easier to escape when he's barfing up his nutz.

[Samurai_Writer]

41. Did you read about her back problems?

Not all women's legs are strong. It's easy to say 'kick him in the nuts', but in many instances, there is not an opportunity to do so.

[elehhhhna]

42. I know, I'm sorry if I upset you--it was directed to the board, not her...

She needs to file a report so she can sue him for personal injury, imho.

[Bunny]

47. She is to be commended for doing what she perceived, at the time,

was necessary for her to survive. I hope she can get medical and psychological treatment as soon as possible, so the mending process can begin. She is the only one who can determine the right course of action, and the timing therein. I send her good, healing vibes.

[FizzFuzz]

38. no doubt. Rape. Please get her to go to Rape Crisis at least. n/t

[prole_for_peace]

43. i would wait for him at his place with a bat

and, after the beating, tell him he knows he wanted it and that he enjoyed it. asshole...

i don't care if i invite a guy in, have porn or toys and get a back rub. no means no. once that is said all activity should come to a complete halt.

[UdoKier]

53. Duh. obviously rape

And I always give people accused of any crime the benefit of the doubt, but under this scenario, the guy is a thug who deserves jail time.

I would hope that a woman in this situation would offer to orally service him, then either crush the family jewels or take a chunk off of his pride and joy, then run like hell to the neighbor's house to dial 911.

If I did not want someone to have sex with me, I would resist like a motherfucker and make sure the other person DID NOT enjoy it.

But I guess everybody's different...

[TXlib]

55. If that isn't rape, then WTF is?!

Even though it's been a few days, she should go to the hospital and get a rape kit done, and look into pressing charges.

Even if it doesn't stick, the police report will be out there, so if he does it again, there will be records that he is a habitual offender.

Finally, if she fears his response, she should get a restraining order against him.

She can have him arrested then for calling or approaching her.

And, if she is inclined, she will be far more likely to have it ruled as self-defense if she carries a gun and is forced to shoot him.

[Rowdyboy]

58. Of course it was rape.....

I hope he's prosecuted.

[Chovexani]

61. Absolutely.

How horrible! She needs a support system pronto, and charges need to be pressed against this asshole.

[bertha katzenengel]

64. Yes. It is.

[LisaLynne]

66. It's so sad that's not a rhetorical question, isn't it?

elehhhhna's advice about the rape crisis center is good, imho. Just talking to somebody who understands and doesn't judge is all you can get and it does help a lot. A good center will be able to support her in whatever she chooses to do (notice I said a GOOD center -- not that I have any advice about finding one -- I'm way up north, not in FL).

It makes me really sad that people still try to find ways to blame the victim. I know that sometimes people say, "She should have done this" or "She should have done that" do that in order to make themselves feel safer. The idea of rape is very scary and that is a defense mechanism -- "Oh, it won't happen to me because I know to fight" or whatever. But, we need to get beyond that and face our fears and reality. Rape happens. We need to work on stopping it from the perpetrator's perspective because they are the PROBLEM. Well, them, society and our justice system. Bleck.

[Firebrand13]

67. Definitely, it is rape. But I don't see rape as a crime that justifies

a life sentence, the death penalty or "castration" (as some angry posters above recommended).

There are many young minority men falsely accused of rape by white women - her lily white word against their brown/black asses. Many of those men stay in jail forever. Kobe was lucky enough to be rich/famous and somehow escaped the lynch mob (the girl was clearly a groupie).

It is simply too easy for some innocent man (of whatever race) to be locked up forever/executed. When does he get a chance to say "no" ? Where is his justice ?

And I'll say this: patriarchal views are the only reason rape is dealt with the same way murder is -- because it was viewed as a crime of one man (the rapist) against another (the husband of the raped woman).

IMO, rape is more of an assault based crime (a brutal assault and a felony deserving of several years in jail) but not on the level of murder requiring a life sentence or the death penalty. Rape is only somehow viewed differently from assault because it involves SEX. There is nothing dirty or special about sex. Therefore, IMO, what remains is a brutal assault.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MountainLaurel]

73. Not to mention that 2/3

Of all rape victims are under the age of 18. HALF of those are under the age of 12.

Nope, that's not a crime to get upset about.

:sarcasm:

[Kire]

68. what is the context for this?

Just a random scenario? A riddle to solve? Are you writing a novel or are you seeking legal advice?

Or are you spreading the flames for the sticks that the villagers will be carrying to the castle?

I've got a nice pitchfork. Can I come, too?

[Samurai_Writer]

70. I was seeking honest answers to my question

Because many times, in date rape, the woman needs clarification to know she really was raped. It's not a random scenario, it is something that really happened, this past weekend.

[uppityperson]

76. Is she getting help?

rape center, domestic violence/sexual assault helpline, crisis line?

[Samurai_Writer]

77. Yes she is

She is going through her employee assistance program at work, since the nearest rape crisis center is 50 miles away.

[bertha katzenengel]

72. Has everyone on earth gotten so cynical that a post can't be

taken for what it appears to be -- an honest query?

And have message boards become so pugilistic that we can't discuss serious issues without being branded flame artists?

[efhmc]

74. Nasty and uncaring reply. It is obviously something important and real.

[Moderator]

78. Locking

The topic of this thread alleges a possible act of sexual violence. We at DU are unable to give competent advice nor do we want to be the vehicle for other incompetent advice. We recommend and strongly urge anyone who may have experienced an incident such as the one described here to seek out qualified medical help and the expert advice of a rape crisis counselor. Both of these can be obtained at most major hospitals and medical providers.