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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:32 AM
Original message
Whale song reveals sophisticated language skills
Whale song reveals sophisticated language skills

Humpback whales use their own syntax – or grammar – in the complex songs they sing, say researchers who have developed a mathematical technique to probe the mysteries of whale song.

The team adds that whales are the only other animals beside humans to use hierarchical structure in language, in which phrases are embedded in larger, recurring themes.

(more)
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8886&feedId=online-news_rss20
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. once upon a time, I scuba-dived off the shore of Hawaii and heard
whales communicating underwater ...it is a sound I will remember for the rest of my life. Beautiful.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. K and R Amazing Whale songs!
I can't quit listening! It is very soothing. The link to "hear" is in the middle of the article! We played ocarinas and flutes with it, and it is so fun!

:kick:
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RedOnce Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. Great! Fun to listen to. My dog was fascinated.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thanks. The wisdom keepers...
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think a lot of animals have language.
I know my cats make different sounds for different occasions, and those sounds are consistent.

Remember how quickly KoKo the gorilla picked up ASL? She didn't just mimic words, she generated sentences and went around naming things.

Prairie dogs make different noises for humans walking near their towns, to the point of whether they're male or female, what color the clothing is, and whether or not they've got guns.

That cetaceans are nearly to the point of being interpreted doesn't suprise me in the least. They have more brain power than we do, size for size.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Crows too, for that matter...n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. African Greys have been sudied extensively
Though I don't know whether anyone's studied their "natural language" as these researchers seem to have done.

Cool stuff on Alex:

http://www.alexfoundation.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Was fairly sensible about making up signs too...
for instance, the general grassy type food that we call 'browse' she made a sign for, a hand pointing to her eyebrows.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Koko isn't talked about much anymore.
When somebody finally went through the many hundreds of hours of tape, the sentences were found to have been generated with random frequency, and the results basically contained all and only the information that supported the claims. Signs were made with random frequency in the presence of their referents. She had referential use of some signs; but then again, many animals are capable of associating a sound or symbol with a thing. This isn't language.

ASL specialists (for example, Suppala) went through the Koko tapes and found that new ASL signs were found to have been innovated for a single occasion, interpreted, listed as such, and promptly vanished. The claims for structure didn't hold up from that angle, either.

Claims of simian language constantly advanced; then, years afterwards, people debunk them. By then there's a new species for which the same claims are advanced. Researchers get few publications from debunking a published result; students and faculty get papers from advancing them. It takes almost as long to debunk a claim as to advance one.

I can't comment on the other communication systems.
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treegiver Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Debunked?
When somebody finally went through the many hundreds of hours of tape, the sentences were found to have been generated with random frequency, and the results basically contained all and only the information that supported the claims.

I'd certainly like to see this "debunking". Do you have a cite for that?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'll remember to ask my wife.
Every year she gets undergrads claiming how wonderful Koko is, and every year she assigns some articles on communication systems, design features of language, and methodological problems with the Koko research.

I was Vickie Fromkin's TA one year, and spoke with Ted Suppala a few times while in Rochester; they're two of the critics (Fromkin died in ... 2000?). I don't know that they've published.

Patterson et al. are the big Koko pushers. After the adult-Koko-language business didn't work out, they pushed kiddy-Koko: Patterson, Francine G P; Cohn, Ronald H (Journal of Pragmatics, 1988, 12, 1, Feb, 35-54; Word, 1990, 41, 2, Aug, 97-143). The later work focuses on pragmatics, comparing it to L1 acquisition, esp. among deaf kids. But it contains the same methodological flaws.

Petitto, Laura A; Seidenberg, Mark S (Brain and Language, 1979, 8, 2, Sept, 162-183), Terrace, Herbert S (The Sciences, 1982, 22, 9, Dec, 8-10) are two articles that debunk the research. There are more. MLA and LLBA would, no doubt, turn up more.

Suppala, an ASL researcher, has no problem just showing footage (that Patterson is proud of) to his students with little commentary. They typically provide their own debunking; adding the methodological problems allows Ted to share his derision with his students with few additional comments needed. In fact, he finds Patterson's research to be downright offensive, and Patterson to show his ignorance of ASL. Suppala is a native ASL speaker.

Most people don't say Koko can't learn some sort of communication. Chimps can, apes can, chickens and doves can. But she--and the other examples touted as animal language--have not learned any syntax or morphology, and has no phonology. Her speech isn't recursive, isn't regular, shows no inflection or capacity for inflection (or the grammatical categories that underpin inflection), and no awareness of phonological space. (While 'phonology' is usually considered to be how sounds pattern, sign languages also have phonology.) While there are similarities between Koko and children, note that Patterson puts it in the realm of pragmatics: in other words, when Koko's interacting with the researchers, by and large. Kids, even before they say their first word, have acquired a phonology. And by the two-word stage they clearly have syntax, and even grammatical and cognitive categories. But they suck at pragmatics, since that requires a different, frequently ritualized, kind of interaction; most kids will focus on nouns, with the single noun intended to convey most of a sentence. There's no way to show Koko does, or doesn't, have such intentions. Patterson winds up backtracking to show that Koko can match small children at what they're worst at, the part of language they typically acquire late.

Many people, typically *not* mainstream linguists or psycholinguists, like the Koko narrative. Some are in anthropology or sociology and we simply disagree (often fairly completely) as to what language is. Most Koko fans fall into the 'advocacy' camp, and want their research to be relevant to much more than just linguistics and language. The linguistics and psycholinguistics camp subjected Patterson's work to the same kind of scrutiny that they've subjected everybody else's work to; it's not like he's the first researcher to have his claim gutted, and ultimately accepted only by a minority of linguists.
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treegiver Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thanks
Your citations are much appreciated.

I hate to be a bother but you mention a "minority of linguists" who apparently don't feel the matter is as settled as do "mainstream linguists". Just for the sake of completeness, who would you say are the principal denizens of that small camp?
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is actually one of the reasons I oppose
whale hunting for any reason. I think it might well be murder of another sentient being. I don't give a rat's ass if it's "traditional" or "cultural." Some of my ancestors used to raid coastal towns, kill off the menfolk, steal all the goodies, and make off with whatever women they wanted to. Now the descendents of that culture are among the most civilized in the world.

Go figure.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Old Viking eh ? nothing like a little raid... nt
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't remember where I read this, but it was a while ago...
It was a study of certain types of whale songs (I think it was humpbacks) over a couple of decades, and it appeared that some songs seemed to remain intact, but got longer with additional 'lyrics' attached at the end of the pattern/song. One theory was that they might be "oral histories" of some kind.

Possible? Sure. Plausible? I don't know. Interesting? Yes.

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