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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:11 AM
Original message
WaPo Magazine: Darwin v. God
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 05:14 PM by Skinner
I read this article on Sunday morning (I get the Sunday Post delivered), and I have been irritated about it ever since. I've never read any literature on Intelligent Design, or talked with anyone who takes it seriously. Sure, I know plenty of people who believe in God and who have some vague notion that God was involved in creation and/or evolution. But I've never had any direct contact with people who are heavily involved in the Intelligent Design movement or who otherwise try to give creationism some appearance of scientific credibility.

This article opened my eyes. The first half of this article tells about a Biology professor at Northern Virginia Community College who teaches a class on (her words), "the strengths and weaknesses of evolution." Except for the fact that her class seems to teach neither. Instead, she's just passing off a bunch of half-truths, distortions, and outright lies. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I tend to think that most creationists are well meaning but extremely ignorant. But this "professor" goes way beyond ignorance into the realm of deliberate dishonesty. She has to know that she is not being truthful.

Read it and cringe:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/03/AR2006020300822_3.html
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah.. that ticks me off too. Heck, just framing the debate as
Edited on Mon Feb-06-06 09:14 AM by GreenPartyVoter
"Darwin v. God" bugs me because I am a theistic evolutionist and that type of argument excludes me completely.

P.S. Good job on the upgrade! Thanks! :D
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. For whatever reason, they don't use that title online.
The hard copy of the magazine has the words "Darwin v. God" on the cover, but uses "Eden and Evolution" as the title to the article itself.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. "plenty of people who believe in God...(and) that God was involved"
Edited on Mon Feb-06-06 09:18 AM by trotsky
Yeah, like the Catholic Church! Lots of sensible people are out there, the problem is this "ID" movement is much more slickly packaged and designed (no pun intended) to falsely characterize this as a battle between atheistic scientific materialists and decent honorable religious folks.

The creationist movement learned a lot from their losses, and totally retooled their approach to try and avoid everything that knocked them down before. "ID" is gonna be a lot harder to overcome.

Thanks for the link.

on edit: typo
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. As long as we still have separation of church and state I think we can
pretty much keep it out of most public schools. I hope.

Then again, I am sure the Pastor-in-Chief is workin' hard doin' the hard work of getting God back into the schools. :eyes:
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The recent Dover case was a pleasant surprise.
Not only the judge's ruling, but the fact that the voters threw the IDers off the school board. It gave me hope.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. We are a pluralistic society. I think that even other religions that might
have a belief in a Creator would be hesitant to let ID into the schools, because who is to say that it will teach the right way on that subject? Maybe it will only have a Christian slant to it. I think that they might make allies for those of us who reject ID in the schools for other reasons.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. So are you saying
That their approach has evolved?

Sorry, it was obvious.

And yes, I agree, their marketing has definitely changed. Did you read the article about the "Big Bang" Theory where they are pushing the non-scientific definition of "Theory" in much the same way as ID?

L-
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. See also...
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MrMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Same article
and just about no one in that thread actually read it.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Read the piece in Harper's this month
about the Dover trial. Written by a descendant of Darwin, good stuff.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. Welcome to the wonderful world of Creation "Science"
Half-truths, distortions, and outright lies are the building blocks of a theory in the world of creationists.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
12. ok, finally read this last night
in my opinion, NOVA should terminate the teacher who taught only tbe holes in evolutionary theory and not the strengths as well. In a science class, especially for first year students, that is unacceptable. A higher level class, once there is a decent amount of understanding of the underlying biology is one thing (and probably a good thing, learning about the holes in a theory is the best wa to really understand it and its limitations.) but not to first years who have no real understanding of biology. Take the example of physics, for instance, there is some dispute about some elements of Einsteinian relativity, I understand (I understand there is some controversy, not what the actual issues are) and this debate is happening where it belongs, among the very few people in the world who actually understand the issues at stake, not in a classroom of introduction to biology at a community college. or any college intro class, for that matter. If the challenges are successful, and our understanding of relativity is altered, then we can start teaching the challenges in intro classes.

I think, and maybe I'm overly cynical here, that the entire 'scientific' basis for Intelligent Design is specious and based solely on the need for attention and promotion. The arguement is that the IDers are held back from promotion in academia, well, that's probably true, if you can't publish anything, you can't get promoted. simple as that. And isn't the discrimination against IDers a convenient excuse for not cutting the mustard? There are thousands of biology professors in the US every year who get passed over for tenure, or full professorships, or whatnot. it's a tough field, one in which you have to produce scientific publications (publish or perish, right?) in reputable journals, no matter what else you do. At my beloved Alma Mater (Colby) tenure track associate professors were expected to publish between one and two peer reviewed papers a year for four to five years, while teaching 2-3 classes a semester. Ideally, you'd throw a book in there as well, if you were a social scientist. And maybe a couple of lectures at conferences, a few letters to editors and a couple of other minor submissions to things. If you didn't hit the benchmarks, no one cared what else you did, you weren't getting tenure. (obviously, the better the paper and the better the journal, the fewer papers you need present.) It's a tough world, fewer than half make it, and those were the top 15 percent to begin with. So what's a better excuse than institutional discrimination against your crackpot theory? It's not my fault, it's the school's for being closed minded.

So you are a young biologist or climatologist who doesn't care as much about science as your career. You have two paths in front of you: one, you can sign on to the generally accepted theories that have mounds of evidence to support them (macroevolution and climate change) knowing that there is intense competition for funding, jobs and research opportunities and that you are going in against giants, knowing by 25 that you are never going to shake the world, unless you get lucky and your tens of thousands of hours of labour leads to a single great discovery that people outside your field care about, basically that you have to be content making small discoveries that add to the larger picture of the world; OR, if you are particularly ambitious, you might notice that there is a lot of funding avaliable for ID research, or Climate Change research that shows no ill effects. So there is money on the table, a spot on Fox News as a contributing science commentator, dozens of easy to get into conferences, a market eager to read your books, fame and fortune are not that hard to come by, if you can stand the ridicule of your peers who know you are full of shit. And the best part? if you never do anything, it's all their fault cause they are small minded and bigoted against your ideas. It's not your fault you can't get tenure, besides, there is a support network to help you out. So you sell your scientific soul.

Let's be clear about one thing. IDers are not 'scientific rebels' that are turning their collective backs on the scientific community while playing to the non-scientific community. Darwin was a rebel, however unwillingly. He stood up to the scientific community and said "you are wrong, and I can prove it" and he stood up to the general public and said "you, too, are wrong, and I can prove that as well) IDers like Behe tell the scientific community "you are wrong, and I can't prove it" and to the great scientifically illiterate masses, "you are right, and those eggheads are wrong" That's not rebellion, that's demagougery. Science, unlike almost anything else is not a matter of opinion, or a popularity contest. It simply is. (or should be)
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Amen!
I agree 100%.

I was actually disappointed when I read the part in the article where her former boss insisted that she wasn't fired because she was promoting Intelligent Design. I'm thinking to myself, a biology professor who is teaching what is supposed to be a science class to push a crackpot theory that can't be proven -- you're goddamn right she should be fired. She doesn't have the slightest clue what science actually is.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. well technically
she wasn't fired for teaching ID, she was let go because she wasn't teaching what she was hired for. Which was biology. Be it french, physics, or elementary algebra, it wasn't her job to teach it in that class. seems simple to me...
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. I thought Christians had a thing about not lying...
I guess that doesn't apply when you don't want it to!
:eyes:

Remember Feb 12 is Darwin's birthday!
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