Acupuncture Pseudoscience in the NEJM

[HuckleB]

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2164#more-2164

"Here is the conclusion quoted from a recent New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) review article on acupuncture for back pain: "As noted above, the most recent wellpowered clinical trials of acupuncture for chronic low back pain showed that sham acupuncture was as effective as real acupuncture. The simplest explanation of such findings is that the specific therapeutic effects of acupuncture, if present, are small, whereas its clinically relevant benefits are mostly attributable to contextual and psychosocial factors, such as patients’ beliefs and expectations, attention from the acupuncturist, and highly focused, spatially directed attention on the part of the patient."

Translation – acupuncture does not work. Why, then, are the same authors in the same paper recommending that acupuncture be used for chronic low back pain? This is the insanity of the bizarro world of CAM (complementary and alternative medicine).

Let’s break down their conclusions a bit. They have reviewed the clinical evidence, as I and others have done before, and found that when real acupuncture is compared to various forms of sham acupuncture (the acupuncture version of a placebo) there is no difference. As I have written many times before – it doesn’t matter where you stick the needles, or even if you stick the needles. Since acupuncture consists of sticking needles in acupuncture points, the only reasonable conclusion from this evidence is that there is no specific effect from acupuncture – acupuncture does not work.

The phrase, “contextual and psychosocial factors, such as patients’ beliefs and expectations, attention from the acupuncturist, and highly focused, spatially directed attention on the part of the patient.” is a fancy way of saying “placebo effects.” In other words, there are some non-specific subjective benefits to getting attention from a practitioner. There is this assumption, however, that these benefits are real and worthwhile. However, they are likely to be illusory – an artifact of observation and reporting, not a real improvement in the patient’s condition. In real science-based medicine, that is the underlying assumption – placebo effects are largely illusory – a variable to be controlled for.

..."


------------------------------------


When, oh, when will the madness of the CAMscam end?

:shrug:

[Crunchy Frog]

1. It's cheap and it's harmless?

And alot less invasive than other treatments that probably don't work much better. :shrug:

[HuckleB]

4. Uh, it doesn't work. Period.

[customerserviceguy]

12. Then let anybody who wants to do it, practice it

And stop making insurance policies pay for it. Let fools who want placebo relief go to anybody who will stick sewing needles in them for a few bucks.

We're going to be in real trouble when the charlatans want national health care to pay for their quackery. You want your massage therapy, chiropractic, aromatherapy and naturopathic treatments? Fine, but pay for them yourself!

[HuckleB]

14. +1

[Warpy]

2. That's been the controversy all along

whether the effect was derived from following Chinese meridians or simple random needling. The jury seems to be in and the very real effect can be attained by anybody who jams needles in just about anywhere, at least regarding effect on pain.

Interesting.

However, this study failed to reference f-MRI and PET scan studies that showed very real effects in the brain. Dismissing it out of hand as simply placebo seems a bit rash.

Then again, it is just a BLOG.

[HuckleB]

3. So the brain does ascertain touch.

That's good to know.

:hi:

[xchrom]

5. Recommend

[HuckleB]

22. Thanks.

I see nothing has changed at DU, however. The scam pushers are still working overtime.

[Historic NY]

6. Only needle I found was an epidural that gave some relief.

[Historic NY]

7. Only needle I found was an epidural that gave some relief.

[mattvermont]

8. the epidural did nothing both times

In my case the surgery was the ticket both times. And the epi hurt a lot more than the surgery.

[ThatPoetGuy]

9. There is a tendon in my foot...

that is permanently disconnected from the bone. This causes horrendous pain sometimes.

The best treatment I've found is to take a set of binoculars, turn them backwards, and look at my foot through them. http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2008/12/disowning_pain_with_binoculars.php|Explanation here.> I trick my brain into decreasing its awareness of the pain. It's purely and utterly a placebo, and yet, even knowing it's a placebo, it works.

If "chronic lower back pain" can be managed through placebo therapy, why object to it? It amazes me that anyone would want to make others experience pain without even a placebo, simply in order to be RIGHT about something.

[HuckleB]

11. A scam is a scam. Where does it end?

You are only scamming yourself. If you had read the article, you would understand the bogus nature of the "placebos are good" argument.

[ThatPoetGuy]

16. And if you had read the article intelligently, you would know you're the one being scammed.

It's even in the passage you quoted:

"Here is the conclusion quoted from a recent New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) review article on acupuncture for back pain: "As noted above, the most recent wellpowered clinical trials of acupuncture for chronic low back pain showed that sham acupuncture was as effective as real acupuncture. The simplest explanation of such findings is that the specific therapeutic effects of acupuncture, if present, are small, whereas its clinically relevant benefits are mostly attributable to contextual and psychosocial factors, such as patients’ beliefs and expectations, attention from the acupuncturist, and highly focused, spatially directed attention on the part of the patient."

Translation – acupuncture does not work.

No. That "translation" isn't a translation. It isn't even a mistranslation. It's not even close. It's a lie.

I have no interest in acupuncture, and I would discourage my friends from wasting their money on it (note that the binocular therapy costs nothing), but I'm not fond of being lied to.

Apparently you are.

You posted an article by someone who set out to deceive people. An article by someone who is openly deceptive, a liar, all the things he claims the NEJM is, except more aggressively, more programmatically, and less guided by any desire to help people.

You posted an article full of lies -- outright, blatant, serious, and deliberate attempts to trick people.

[HuckleB]

18. Thanks for the fantasies.

I'll stick with the real world when it comes to health care.

[ThatPoetGuy]

20. Maybe you ought to try for some reading comprehension.

Novella lied to you IN HIS VERY FIRST SENTENCE. Then he based a rant upon that lie.

If you choose to believe in a lie, you can't make ANY claims that you "stick with the real world."

You came here and spread lies. You don't even seem ashamed of it. But you should be.

[HuckleB]

21. No, he didn't.

Try again. Just because you make a claim, doesn't make it true.

Faith healing is faith healing, and that's what you are trying to promote.

[ThatPoetGuy]

46. Yes, it was a lie. If you can't see that, then you are not ok in the head.

The passage he quoted said that the direct physical benefits of acupuncture are very small but real. It said that the indirect physical benefits of acupuncture performed accurately (along the "meridians," etc.) are no different from the indirect benefits of sticking needles in someone; but it said that the indirect physical benefits of both (formal acupuncture or informal needle-poking) are real.

To "translate" that as "acupuncture does not work" is a lie.

To deny it's a lie is a lie.

[HuckleB]

51. No, it wasn't a lie.

You have offered nothing but BS illogical nonsense.

Please learn something about logic and about science. Then try to read the piece again.

BYE!

[HuckleB]

52. Bye, bye! DU woo meisters!

I'm sure you'll keep the faith.

After all, that's all you got.

:hi:

[ThatPoetGuy]

57. I told you what was said. I demonstrated it was a lie.

I have done this repeatedly.

I have quoted the exact words. I have shown you that the NEJM said one thing, and that Dr. Skeptical deliberately misrepresented what the NEJM said.

You claim I've been illogical, yet you can't demonstrate it.

You are continuing to say the sky is made of brie. I keep telling you it's not. You say I'm illogical.

[HuckleB]

65. SImply because you say you did something, doesn't mean you did it.

Logic is not your forte.

[jody]

10. Acupuncture has been proven to be just as effective as giving trillions of dollars to corporations

to stimulate the economy.

[Richard D]

13. Well, flame away . . .

I've been practicing acupuncture since 1983 and have seen hundreds of people who were in chronic back pain get out of pain and start to have functioning bodies. Thousands more with other conditions - again most that had been thoroughly and competently treated with conventional medicines. Note that I was, for the majority of these patients, their last hope. They'd done everything available in western medicine, some short of surgery; some had had surgery, and none had gotten better until receiving the acupuncture treatment.

there's a couple of fundamental flaws in any placebo controlled acupuncture study, the most obvious being is that there is no such thing as "sham" acupuncture points. Certainly there are points that are not on the meridian; these are called extra-points or Ashi points when pushing on one elicits pain. One book listed over 2000 of these points, which doesn't leave too much of the body un-pointed.

The second flaw is that in any study, the points are chosen by the book, and remain constant through every patient. That's never how a decently educated acupuncturist would work. I might have 10 patients with back pain, same etiology and same symptoms, but each patient would get a unique treatment that would change from day to day according to their needs.

this study also didn't, I believe, take into consideration that a needle isn't just stuck in the body and that's that. There are dozens of ways to utilize a needle during a treatment, including and not limited to length and thickness of the needle, depth of insertion, how the needle is manipulated once in the body, how the needle is withdrawn, how long the needle would stay in, and if and how other stimulation such as heat or electricity are applied. Again, this would vary greatly from patient to patient, even those with the same western diagnosis. It takes years to learn the subtlety of this.

Obviously in such a study none of these things are applied. The needle is just stuck in the pre-chosen point, likely by someone who isn't really trained in Asian medicine.

Also, acupuncture is just one branch of Asian medicine. Tui-na (a form of massage), moxibustion, herbal liniments, exercise, internal formulas, etc. are generally used in the course of a therapy session. And again, each is tailored individually for the patients specific needs.

I won't say it always helps or is a miracle. But i will say that for many people that have exhausted other avenues or who can't or don't want to go under the knife, it's a damned good thing to try.

[HuckleB]

15. Keep selling those placebos.

How many blinded placebo studies that show jack do you need to see before you realize that what you're practicing is faith healing.

And specific needs, my arse.

[ThatPoetGuy]

17. Keep pushing those lies.

And keep trying to deprive people of help, while you're at it.

[HuckleB]

19. I'm not the one who's pushing lies and depriving people of real help.

It's time to stop the snake oil sales people of all stripes, including acupuncturists.

[BuddhaGirl]

31. acupuncture is not going away

many, many people find relief in acupuncture, myself included. I am so thankful for it.

I really don't understand all your postings/rantings about it on DU. You aren't going to change anyone's mind, you know. Do you believe you are?

[HuckleB]

33. Blah. Blah. Blah.

Keep fooling yourself. A scam is a scam is a scam.

[BuddhaGirl]

39. do you think you are doing any good

by repeatedly posting your negative opinions of acupuncture? Do you think you are going to change anyone's mind about it? Serious question here...

[HuckleB]

41. I'm doing more good than you.

So, yes.

[BuddhaGirl]

47. no, don't think so

and you won't answer a question. And I'm sure I'll get another immature reply.

[HuckleB]

50. Ah, yes, and pushing scams is so mature!

:rofl:

[BuddhaGirl]

56. scams is you word, your opinion

and your opinion doesn't matter. :-) But if it amuses you, keep trying!

[HuckleB]

64. A scam is what it is.

You seem to enjoy being scammed, but that's your problem.

[ThatPoetGuy]

37. I agree with you in certain ways.

I believe in stopping deception. I believe people who offer to heal your cancer or whatnot using alternative medicine are the scum of the earth.

But pain management is less exact, and the field of study is tainted*. I'm willing to bet that Dr. Novella has never had to deal with severe chronic pain. It's an area where no compassionate person would refuse to give a patient a quick-and-dirty method -- something that does not fit the contemporary scientific paradigm but helps alleviate the pain without the side effects of morphine derivatives.

* - Tainted: A prominent researcher named Scott Reuben spent decades falsifying data. Reuben was considered one of the world's foremost medical authorities on the subject of pain. But he was on the take, paid by a pharmaceutical company. Last I heard, he'd been sentenced to prison. And yet thousands of other studies were released, based on Dr. Reuben's research. Steven Novella released papers based on that research. A generation of med students were taught elaborate theories about the workings of pain, and those theories were based on falsified data. The entire field is in disarray; methods that were considered effective are now in question; but hey, at least no one suffers for it... other than the people who are in chronic pain.

[HuckleB]

40. Well...

Yes, pain is less exact. In fact, the interesting thing about acupuncture is that the only studies (all of them preliminary) that show any benefit are for very subjective matters like pain. Yet, acupuncturists will claim to treat other health concerns that can be studied with objective results. For some reason, there are no studies to back those up. It's all a very interesting, in a bridge selling way. Clearly Chi is totally without warrant, and where the needles go does not matter. Yet, every acupuncturist out there will tell you otherwise.

As for your assessment of Dr. Novella, that pure logical fallacy, and I'm not wasting time on that part of your post.

[Richard D]

23. Nice flame

Very intelligently stated.

I'm impressed.

[HuckleB]

24. Yes, you did offer a mindless flame.

The real question is whether or not you are ethical enough to stop scamming people.

[Richard D]

27. I'm ethical enough to keep helping people.

Like I said, most of the people I've helped had already tried conventional medicine without relief. They got relief from my treatments.
Not sure what your problem with that is. Just cause it doesn't fit into your world view doesn't mean squat to someone who got their ability to move around freely and with either greatly diminished pain or full relief.

Yeesh, I feel like I wandered into FR.

[HuckleB]

29. So you are going to go back to school, and get a job in health care or social work?

Your anecdotes are meaningless. If you knew the first thing about the scientific process, you'd know that.

You don't. And that brings us back to the reality that you are practicing faith healing and charging for it.

That's sick.

[Richard D]

34. What's sick . . .

. . . is your attitude.

bye.

[HuckleB]

36. What's sick is taking money from people, while offering nothing.

That's what acupuncturists do.

[Richard D]

44. no Bubba . . .

. . . that's what you think acupuncturists do. Fortunately your opinion doesn't matter that much.

The only accurate test for acupuncture's effectiveness would be not a dbpcs, which in this case is highly flawed. The only real test would be a long term longitudinal study, say with 10 thousand patients treated by competent acupuncturists followed over a few years. To the best of my knowledge, such a study has not been done. I'm a clinician, not a researcher, but hey, if you want to fund such a study I know people who would love to do it. Problem is, no one wants to fund it. So I'm stuck with the gratitude of thousands of patients who found help with acupuncture when nothing else helped them.

Guess what, I'm gonna keep doing it as long as I'm able. Seeing the relief in someone's eyes, hearing their stories, watching their lives change, is proof enough for me. You don't like it, that's your problem, not mine.

[HuckleB]

45. That's hilarious!

I love to see people bring the old classic excuses to the table.

In other words, you admit that you are practicing that has no scientific basis.

You just knocked yourself out!

Thanks.

[Richard D]

48. Scientific basis?

I'm certain it does. Again that's your interpretation, not mine.

[HuckleB]

49. LOL!

Try challenging yourself then. Try learning about the scientific process, and what it means.

Then stop looking at selected "studies."

If you do, you'll do the right thing.

[Richard D]

53. No worries, and stop laughing so loud . . .

. . . it's showing the cheeto stains on your teeth!

I'm quite familiar with the scientific process and it's limitations.

[HuckleB]

55. It's clear that you have no idea about the scientific process.

And that you are happy that way.

But thanks for the continued nonsense.

It's what you practice, and it's all you've offered here.

BYE!

HASTA!

SEE YA! (Not really.)

[Richard D]

58. it's clear that your mind is closed to any new idea . . .

. . . but that's cool as long as you enjoy being that way. Sometimes there is no grounds for agreement.

chao.

[HuckleB]

63. I'm not the one with a closed mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Try again.

[BuddhaGirl]

35. thank you!

I love my acupuncturist - she is incredible and has helped me with several issues.

[HuckleB]

38. You don't love her near as much as she loves your money!

[knitter4democracy]

132. It cured my vertigo. Nothing the doctors tried did.

I didn't believe in it. Thought it was crazy. I went along with it because I was desperate and because my doctor told me to try it before going back to the crazy specialist and his insane tests, but I honestly didn't think it would work.

Not only did it work, my allergies got better, and I felt far, far better than I had in ages. My practitioner taught me a pressure point thing for anxiety that I still use that really helps (don't care if it's a placebo--it works).

The one weird time was when he put a needle in on my cheekbone under my left eye. It was like fireworks went off! Severe pain, flashes of light, you name it. It scared him but good, and it freaked me out. I felt that spot for weeks afterward. The really odd thing, though, is that when I'm freaking out about my ex and court and stuff, that same spot throbs. I tap it for awhile, and then I feel better.

There's far more to the nervous system than we can possibly know these days. Why wouldn't something that's been honed and tried over a couple thousand of years work?

[HuckleB]

25. Acupuncture fails to boost IVF success in study

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66C66D20100713

[HuckleB]

26. When what an acupuncture study shows is much more interesting than what acupuncture believers think

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/06/when_what_an_acupuncture_study_shows_is.php

[HuckleB]

28. Another overhyped acupuncture study misinterpreted

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5452

[HuckleB]

30. Science Media Misinterprets New Acupuncture Studies

http://getbetterhealth.com/science-media-misinterprets-new-acupuncture-studies/2010.05.20

[HuckleB]

32. Does Acupuncture Work or Not?

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=14

[HuckleB]

42. Toothpicks AHOY!

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1897636,00.html

Who out there knows that back pain is basic to the human condition?

:hi:

[HuckleB]

43. Another acupuncture study misinterpreted

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/another_acupuncture_study_misinterpreted.php

[Celebration]

59. Obsession, much? n/t

[HuckleB]

61. I'm sorry reality bothers you so much.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. This whole thread makes me want to look into accupuncture for myself.

Anything that can induce that level of hysteria must have something to it. :shrug:

[HuckleB]

62. LOL!

That's right. Instead of using logic, and looking at the actual evidence, go with your emotions!

[Crunchy Frog]

66. Hell, I think it would be worth it just to piss you off.

If I do it, I intend to post extensively about it on here, just so I can entertain myself watching the froth spew. It would be worth the cost of treatment. ;)

[HuckleB]

69. ROTFLMAO!

Your first response was juvenile enough. You didn't have to make it quite so clear that you are posting from the point of view of the typical middle school boy.

[Crunchy Frog]

72. Gosh, you really injured me with that taunting.

Guess I'll have to go see an accupuncturist to make me feel better. :rofl:

[HuckleB]

76. Ah, the taunter doesn't like the return volley.

Please waste your money. So us all how smart you are!

[Crunchy Frog]

82. You bet I'll so you!

Have you been taking taunting lessons?

[HuckleB]

83. Looks like you've lost some of your skills over the summer.

[Crunchy Frog]

108. What, did I used to be a better taunter?

I'd better go to my accupuncturist and get a tune up.

[Wilms]

67. Maybe you're just scared.

But keep posting. Eventually, you may upend a 5000 year old art.

Until then, I thank my acupuncturist. My dogs thank their acupuncturist too. But I'll let Rover know about your placebo effect ideas. I'm sure he'll roll over. :rofl:

[HuckleB]

68. Everyone should be scared of scams.

Thanks for the usual illogical and ignorant response.

It's probably not wise to admit to giving your money away for nothing, however.

Try informing yourself:

The Placebo Effect
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304

Animal acupuncture
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=519

[Wilms]

73. Had I seen this thread I would've attributed the success to "spontaneous healing"

Yeah. That's it. S p o n t a n e o u s H e a l i n g.

Very unscientific of me to have attributed the healing to the acupuncture administered. Heck. Maybe I just imagined mobility restored when in fact, I'm an invalid.

Quick. Get me a wheel chair. :o

[HuckleB]

75. Thank you for showing a complete lack of knowledge of such matters.

It's very likely that you could have been told to pick your nose five times and hour instead, and the same outcome would have occurred.

Placebo Effects Revisited
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304

Another overhyped acupuncture study misinterpreted
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5452

Animal acupuncture
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=519

Is There a Placebo Effect for Animals?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=263

[BuddhaGirl]

70. ROFL!

this level of obsession is, well, plain bizarre...and kind of sad. :eyes:

[HuckleB]

71. Yes, your obsession with promoting the scam of "alternative medicine" is sad.

What's funny is that the posters who call me obsessed for pointing out the scam spend far more time pushing the scam.

Thus, the hypocrisy is noted.

Sorry, but your ridiculous attacks aren't going to quiet those of us who care about informing others of the reality of these scams.

[mopinko]

74. it was just recommended for my kid by a top pain clinic.

i am fuming. i will not, under any circumstances, add to the hopelessness of a kid with chronic pain by putting her through some stupid sham. not makin' me real popular, but i am used to that.

[Desertrose]

77. You aren't willing to try to give your child relief

regardless of how you feel/think about acupuncture?

Something that will not harm him/her and may just possibly help? But you refuse it because of your beliefs?


I've had back & neck pain relieved by acupuncture after a car accident when nothing else would help. It was neither frightening nor unpleasant and it truly helped when meds didn't touch the pain.

Just sayin'.

Hope your kid gets some relief somehow. Chronic pain sucks.

[HuckleB]

78. Perhaps mopinko is refusing it because the evidence that it helps isn't there.

It may not have a thing to do with beliefs.

Nice attempt at producing a baseless guilt trip.

:mad:

[Dorian Gray]

79. If a top pain clinic suggested it to me

and there was no other form of relief from the chronic pain for my child, you bet your ass I'd give it a shot. If it doesn't work, it's wasted money. So what? If it does work? Even better.

[BuddhaGirl]

80. +1

:thumbsup:

[HuckleB]

81. A quack is a quack is a quack.

"Top" means jack. It's just marketing.

[Dorian Gray]

84. Meh....

Top in the field, at least here in NYC, generally has something behind it. Regardless, I would exhaust all medical ways to help my child as well.

I know you are super-resistant to acupuncture discussion in any form, and that's fine. I don't want to change your mind. But I do find it amusing how knee-jerkingly you react to any discussion of it.

[HuckleB]

85. Hardly. And being in NYC has nothing to do with it.

It's and excuse, and there is no excuse for pushing scams.

[Dorian Gray]

86. Hey

I can't help it if some well educated and well respected doctors at some of the top hospitals here have suggested acupuncture as an ALTERNATIVE medical practice in conjunction with whatever other medical therapies one may be using. You say they are all quacks. Okay. None of them sold is as a cure-all or offered to do the therapy themselves. It's an ALTERNATIVE therapy that they thought may be worth looking into. :shrug:

I think most people understand that and don't use it as a cure-all panacea to all that ails them. For many, it's worth a shot to see if it alleviates symptoms of pain or insomnia or other light-weight medical issue. If someone sold it as a cure to cancer, I'd be fighting tooth and nail with you. But your anti-acupuncture crusade is sort of amusing, so have at it!

[Celebration]

87. Yeah, actual MDs recommend acupunture

There are definitely some MDs that don't obsess on these blogs that keep getting posted. One example I have is a friend that is undergoing radiation therapy for returning breast cancer. Her daughter is an acupuncturist in another city, and the oncologists here are frantic to find an acupuncturist to work with their clinic. They want her doctor to contact them. They know it helps greatly with the nausea of chemotherapy. Thankfully my friend doesn't have to endure chemotherapy. There is a good possibility her daughter will be working in this oncology clinic in a couple of years.

These OCD blogs are a big yawn.

[HuckleB]

89. Some MDs are quacks! Who would have thought that possible?

:rofl:

[Celebration]

90. ROFL is right

And to think that I was referenceing the most prominent cancer clinic in a several state area, and nationally renowned............

And I suppose you think MD Anderson Clinic in Houston is full of quacks. :rofl:

http://www.mdanderson.org/patient-and-cancer-information/guide-to-md-anderson/activities/acupuncture-and-massage.html

Acupuncture involves the placement of metal needles in the skin to stimulate specific areas of the body. Research has shown that acupuncture may stimulate the natural healing process to restore health and well-being. Some cancer patients find that it relieves fatigue, pain and nausea, and clear evidence supports the effectiveness of acupuncture to control chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting.

And you probably need to send some of your rants to the "quacks" at Sloan Kettering

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69111.cfm

But don't stop there..........

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/acupuncture/HealthProfessional/allpages

Although several studies published in China examined the effect of acupuncture on the human immune system,<8,29,32,38-41> most cancer-related human clinical studies of acupuncture evaluated its effect on patient quality of life. These investigations mainly focused on cancer symptoms or cancer treatment–related symptoms, predominantly cancer pain <10,23,42-46> and chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting.<25,27,47-55> Studies have also been done on the effect of acupuncture on radiation -induced xerostomia (dry mouth), rectitis, dysphonia, weight loss, cough, thoracodynia, hemoptysis, fever, esophageal obstruction, poor appetite, night sweats, hot flashes in women and men,<56> dizziness, fatigue, anxiety, and depression in cancer patients.<8-10,57-60> The evidence from most of these clinical studies is inconclusive, despite their positive results; either poor research design or incompletely described methodologic procedures limit their value. There is controversy about the most appropriate control for acupuncture, which also limits the interpretability of the results of clinical trials.<61> The positive results of the studies on chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting, which benefit from scientifically sound research designs, are the most convincing.

[HuckleB]

92. Are they pushing a scam for "treatment?"

If so, they're quacks. You can push your logical fallacies all you want. You're not changing reality.

You can fall for marketing. I prefer science.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1954

and...

Exposing quackery in medical education
http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2008/01/exposing-quackery-in-medical-education.html

[Celebration]

94. sure

Sloan Kettering and MD Anderson cancer clinics are just full of quacks. :rofl:

Only your blogger is qualified to look at the evidence.

:eyes:

[HuckleB]

95. Repeating your logical fallacy doesn't change reality. It's a scam.

http://www.skepdic.com/authorty.html

Evidence is what determines a scam from treatment that offers actual benefit. Quackademics do not.

[Dorian Gray]

97. Well

It's amusing that you keep pointing to a medical blogger as an authority while railing against our appeal to authority.

My prior mention of MDs who suggest acupuncture was no way an argument that their authority proves the effectiveness of acupuncture (rather why I would consider trying it while knowing it may not be effective), so "appeal to authority" isn't the argument I was making. So you can take your logical fallacy and turn it back on yourself. You're the one who keeps posting blogs as authoritative proof about the inefficacy of acupuncture. At least that's what I think you're doing. I can't tell anymore.

[HuckleB]

101. And another logical fallacy.

You are now offering an ad hominem attack against the information I've provided. The bloggers are all well respected MDs and researchers. You know the same status of people you are trying to use as your lone argument. To date, you have not offered one bit of actual argument against the well researched, science based information I've provided. All you've done it offer up logical fallacies.

Are you going to make another?

[Dorian Gray]

105. Wait?

What? LOL! I guess you didn't see where I never claimed anybody was an authority regarding the efficacy of acupuncture. You're the only one doing that. I have no problem with the people you are quoting, nor am I claiming they are wrong. I'm solely pointing out YOUR actions here. You keep going back to them to prove your point here. I don't really give a crap either way.

The only difference is that I AM NOT MAKING a statement about the efficacy or inefficacy of acupuncture. Dude, that's all you!

I just don't get the anger and vitriol this topic brings out in you. It's funny.

[HuckleB]

107. Yes, run away.

:rofl:

Thank you for showing that you do not understand basic logic concepts.

[Dorian Gray]

119. I'll say it again

You are completely incapable of reasonable discourse regarding this topic. :)

I like how you belittle me in order to completely ignore what I said in the above post. That's always an effective tactic.

[HuckleB]

136. Your claim is baseless.

You haven't been able to acknowledge that you are not discussing the matter, therefore you go for the ad hominem attack.

Look in the mirror.

[BuddhaGirl]

98. even the Mayo Clinic

the renowned Mayo Clinic offers acupuncture as treatment to "provide pain relief, as well as to help maintain general health and well-being, increase energy and improve mood in healthy individuals."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/acupuncture/

[HuckleB]

99. All non-science based claims.

In other words, you can appeal to authority all you want, it's still a scam.

BTW, the Mayo Clinic's quackademic practices were addressed in a piece I linked to above.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1954

[BuddhaGirl]

102. well, it seems the Mayo Clinic doesn't think that it's a scam

and I'm sure they are more educated on the issue than you :eyes:

[HuckleB]

103. And the same logical fallacy is repeated again.

As noted, the Mayo's quackademic operation was addressed in a piece I linked to above.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1954

Evidence is what matters, and Mayo is providing non-evidence based treatments. Meanwhile, it is also cutting medicare patients. Sorry, but that's not a great place to try to use as an authority for the old appeal to authority fallacy.

[BuddhaGirl]

109. you don't accept it, that's fine

I applaud the Mayo Clinic and other respected medical facilities who offer CAM alongside allopathic.

Patients deserve choice. That's what's really important :thumbsup:

[HuckleB]

111. It's a false choice.

It's ridiculous that marketing campaigns have led health care providers to provide such ludicrous "options."

Snake oil is snake oil.

Stop pretending otherwise.

[BuddhaGirl]

114. not pretending

"ludicrous" for you...not for others. stop pretending otherwise! :-)

[HuckleB]

130. "Not for others."

If those "others" were educated in basic science, you'd have no way of deceiving them.

Whoops!

[Celebration]

110. But, as you know

They are all QUACKS!

:eyes: :sarcasm:

[HuckleB]

112. Why does the truth bother you?

Why do you have nothing but logical fallacies to defend your defenseless stance?

Seriously.

[Celebration]

116. your logical fallacy

According to you, if I refuse to call the doctors at MD Anderson Cancer Center quacks, if I refuse to call the doctors at Sloan Kettering quacks, and if I refuse to call the doctors at Mayo Clinic quacks, because they often use acupuncture to reduce the symptoms of chemotherapy in their patients, all based on studies in peer reviewed literature, as well as their clinical experience, then I am falling victim to an "appeal to authority." And exactly how much experience does your Dr. Science Blogger have in this area? How many patients has he seen with vomiting after chemotherapy? Who would any rational person trust? A lone blogger with no experience? Your position has absolutely ZERO logic to it.

[HuckleB]

131. Thank you for showing that you don't know the first thing about basic logic.

WOW!

[BuddhaGirl]

113. yes, renowned cancer clinics

obviously don't know anything about the thousands of patients they are treating...how dare they use acupuncture to try to treat pain and provide relief. I guess they should read science blog and be set straight!! :eyes: :sarcasm:

[HuckleB]

115. And another repeat of the same logical fallacy.

Apparently you think repeating it over and over again, will make the logical fallacy disappear.

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

118. You are completely

incapable of reasonable discourse regarding this topic.

[HuckleB]

121. And yet another ad hominem attack.

You've failed to engage in any sort of honest, reasonable discourse. Thus, it is time to point that finger at yourself.

[BuddhaGirl]

120. repeating "logical fallacy" over and over

does not make it so. Apparently :rofl: is all you can do! ;-)

:rofl: at your claim to superior knowledge over the Mayo Clinic, Sloan Kettering, et al.

[HuckleB]

122. My claim is that evidence trumps the logical fallacy.

You want to push a logical fallacy because it supports your blind faith.

You can't support your blind faith without the use of logical fallacies.

That ought to tell you something.

:rofl: :rofl::smoke: :beer: :popcorn: :rofl: :rofl:

[BuddhaGirl]

123. Why don't you tell the Mayo Clinic that it's "blind faith"

that is helping their cancer patients.

They certainly know more than you! You can however :rofl: as much as you want...and keep :smoke: whatever it is your obviously smoking LOL

[HuckleB]

124. Prove that it's helping anyone.

Your logical fallacies don't prove a thing, other than your continued adherence to blind faith.

Oh, and thanks for the ad hominem BS. You are sinking lower and lower.

And I do appreciate that you've continued to kick this thread! That's seriously awesome!

[BuddhaGirl]

125. LOL seriously sad that you think you know better

than than an institution like the Mayo Clinic. Have fun with that! :smoke:

[HuckleB]

129. I know better than to fall for lame logical fallacies.

:evilgrin: :smoke: :popcorn:

[BuddhaGirl]

133. good thing the Mayo clinic doesn't listen to your

so-called "logical fallacies" :smoke:

[HuckleB]

134. Yeah, then they might earn their standing in the marketplace.

[BuddhaGirl]

141. oh my...too precious!!

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

142. Reality is, isn't it?

http://sciencestage.com/resources/infiltration-quackademic-medicine-mainstream-pernicious-influence

[BuddhaGirl]

147. it's your reality

From Sloan-Kettering:

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/85411.cfm

[mzmolly]

148. Some here appear to have an "agenda"

i.e. silence those who don't support Merck and co. ;)

[BuddhaGirl]

151. indeed!

and according to them, certain highly respected medical facilities are filled with "quacks" LOL

[mzmolly]

152. LOL. I too have heard that one.

Have you been subjected to the brilliant "ROFLMAO" comeback yet? ;)

[BuddhaGirl]

160. seems to be a favorite smiley of the obsessed

:rofl: :rofl:

[mzmolly]

161. *snort

Yes it is. ;)

[HuckleB]

156. And the logical fallacy is repeated again.

One would think that someone who understands basic logic would begin to question his or her obsessive blind beliefs. Ah, but that does mean one must understand basic logic.

:rofl:

[BuddhaGirl]

157. "her obsessive blind beliefs"

pot, kettle, black :evilgrin:

[HuckleB]

158. And now to a meaningless, and baseless, cliche.

In this discussion, you possess both the pot and the kettle, or you are both the pot and the kettle in multiple personality woo fest.

http://sciblogs.co.nz/skepticon/2010/08/16/is-acupuncture-worth-a-punctured-lung-or-does-the-risk-out-weigh-the-benefit/

[BuddhaGirl]

159. LOL

nah, I called it right in my last post, oh obsessive one :evilgrin:

[HuckleB]

162. And now you admit that your reason for being starts with the letter T.

It's interesting to watch the defenders of scams become more juvenile as time goes on.

[BuddhaGirl]

165. Now you are putting words in my mouth

how funny you are! :P

[HuckleB]

166. Hardly.

[HuckleB]

155. And the classic red herring appears.

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

163. And, we hear from the person who made it a classic.

Hello. :hi:

[HuckleB]

164. Keep trying.

[HuckleB]

154. It's a reality where scams are called out.

And where ludicrous fantasies are not pushed as health care.

[HuckleB]

88. How does falling for a scam make one well educated?

No one said any of them were well respected, except for those pushing the scam!

You can make all the claims you want. You have never offered any evidence to back them up, however.

So what's the point?

[Dorian Gray]

91. What evidence should I post

to support the idea that I would consider acupuncture as an alternative therapy if and when a doctor suggested it as an alternative therapy to be used in conjunction with modern medical therapies? Do you want paperwork to show that I actually did it? LOL!

This is a discussion board, and people post opinion based upon their experience. I know that's an interesting concept when you want nothing but concrete proof from anyone, but it's how many of us roll.

[HuckleB]

93. I'm sure you did it.

Plenty of people have fallen for the scam. Others have fallen for even more improbable scams like homeopathy and reiki.

None of that means it's anything but a scam. A quack is a quack, and your logical fallacies won't change that.

How are you missing that?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1954

and...

Exposing quackery in medical education
http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2008/01/exposing-quackery-in-medical-education.html

[Dorian Gray]

96. What logical fallacies

have I put forth?

[HuckleB]

100. An anecdote does not logically support the idea that "acupuncture works."

Remember: The plural of anecdote is not data.

If you had read what I posted on the placebo effect, you would know what happened, but you are clearly going to believe what you want to believe. That means your entire argument is based on unsupported faith.

[Dorian Gray]

104. When did I ever say it worked?

I said it was suggested by someone who said it MAY have benefits. I never claimed it was a cure for anything or that it got me knocked up. (I attribute that to good old fashioned mother nature with a little nudge from doctors who had me on a hormone regimen.)

[HuckleB]

106. And now the full confession comes out.

:rofl:

BTW, you began your whole routine with a classic "appeal to authority" fallacy. You repeated it several times.

So, yeah, THAT logical fallacy.

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

117. I've told you that before

in prior threads. I've never hid it.

Not my fault you don't remember it.

[HuckleB]

128. You told me what before?

You don't even know what line of crap you are trying to sell, do you?

Goodness.

:rofl:

[whistler162]

126. You are a buffon.

[HuckleB]

127. Brilliant response.

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

149. Apt response.

:hi:

[HuckleB]

153. Get a life.

[mzteris]

137. It's not a sham - it does work.

It may not work for all people all the time. Some acupuncturists are better than others. But if they're in pain and nothing else helps, then there's no harm in trying.

If you've exhausted everything else, wth not give it a try? Hell, I'd dance naked in the moonlight kissing a toad if that's all the avenue I had left.

[HuckleB]

140. Why allow scam artists to fool the public?

Dancing naked in the moonlight kissing a toad will give you the same result. There is no point in pushing scams on people, and this scam has been pushed to the point where many intelligent people have no idea how ludicrous the evidence is for acupuncture.

Another good read:

Oriental Medicine or Medical Orientalism?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=930

[mzteris]

143. Over 2000 years of success points to this NOT being a "scam".

You may not like it, and you clearly do not understand it. Why do you stand in the way of people getting the help that they need? Why do you want people to suffer needlessly and undergo painful and useless and very expensive "medical" treatments that may or may not work - or that may well cause more harm than good? Side-effects from pharmaceuticals harm nearly as many people as they help.

[HuckleB]

145. Really?

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the subject and its history, if you do, you might refine your red herring questions.

1. Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=252

2. The History Of Acupuncture: Astrology With Needles
http://www.getbetterhealth.com/the-history-of-acupuncture-astrology-with-needles/2009.08.13

[HuckleB]

135. NEJM and Acupuncture: Even the best can publish nonsense.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6485#more-6485

This might be the best dissection of the NEJM's ludicrous publication of this "review" yet.

[mzteris]

138. YMMV - but I'm here to tell you that for me

and for my kids, it most definitely has worked.

Believe what you want, and if you don't want to go to one, then don't. But you just may be missing out on a drug free option. For some, taking artificial chemicals is the LAST thing they ever WANT to do.

[HuckleB]

139. It's not about belief.

It's about evidence, and the evidence is not there for acupuncture.

Here's a nice read, as a beginning:

Placebo Effects Revisited
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304

[mzteris]

144. For every bit you post, there is an equal and opposite affirmation.

And I'm a betting that over TWO THOUSAND YEARS WORTH of satisfied customers outweigh any of these so called limited "studies".

[HuckleB]

146. Ah, the repeated marketing slogan, er appeal to "ancient wisdom."

Exactly what does the sentence in your post title mean, anyway?

BTW, why not challenge yourself? Why not actually read why those who care about evidence don't buy into acupuncture? Or don't you want to understand why people come to the conclusions they do?

Oriental Medicine or Medical Orientalism?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=930

“Acupuncture Anesthesia”: a Proclamation from Chairman Mao (Part IV)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=540

Risks Associated With Complementary And Alternative Medicine (CAM): A Brief Overview
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=480

Acupuncture – Disconnected from Reality
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=413

[Name removed]

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