Adverse reactions to H1N1 vaccine showing

[The Straight Story]

Adverse reactions to H1N1 vaccine showing

OTTAWA, Nov. 18 (UPI) -- Serious adverse reactions and at least one death have been attributed to the H1N1 flu vaccine in Canada, the country's top doctor said.

At an Ottawa news conference, Dr. David Butler-Jones, Canada's chief public health officer, said the death involved an elderly person who went into a severe allergic reaction after receiving the vaccine, the Canwest News Service reported Wednesday.

He said the most common side effects include allergic reactions, fever, and convulsions that require hospitalization.

Those symptoms have been reported in 36 Canadians of 6.6 million shots given so far since the virus originally called swine flu emerged in Mexico in April.

However, Butler-Jones said the rate of reactions is lower than those seen in widespread vaccinations for seasonal flu, the report said.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/International/2009/11/18/Adverse-reactions-to-H1N1-vaccine-showing/UPI-49261258573820/

[sudopod]

1. "However...

Butler-Jones said the rate of reactions is lower than those seen in widespread vaccinations for seasonal flu, the report said."

Really, Mr./Ms. UPI Editor, if the scary scary swine flu vaccine causes less reactions on average than the normal seasonal flu vaccine, shouldn't that be the headline?

[Ms. Toad]

2. And the Canadian vaccine includes adjuvants,

a different choice than was made in the US, where the vaccines do not include adjuvants.

[Betsy Ross]

3. adjuvants

anything that aids in removing or preventing a disease, esp. a substance added to a prescription to aid the effect of the main ingredient. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/adjuvants Other definitions, but this one seemed the most appropriate.

[Ms. Toad]

4. Basically they boost the antibody producing capability

of the vaccine so you can use smaller quantities of vaccine. Stretches the available vaccine.

The addition of an adjuvant throws one more thing into the mix which might cause adverse reactions.

[truedelphi]

8. I watched a C Span hearing last night

And the CDC is under pressure to see that our vaccines do contain an adjuvant.

Apparently the purpose of an adjuvant, in addition to other functions, is that less live virus can be present in each shot. So in a sense an adjuvant allows to dilute the amount of vaccine material available. This means that there would be more flu shots available.

It will be interesting to see if the CDC bows to the pressure or stays the course. We will see what happens with the next round of shots that are presented in January or February.

[K8-EEE]

5. The RATE of reaction different than the severity of them n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. 36 out of 6.6 million = 0.028%

fewer than three in ten thousand. Compared to risk of hospitalisation and death from H1N1 per the CDC estimates, I'll take those odds.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Sign me up too

UPI editors doing a lousy job

[Caliman73]

34. Actually, they are doing exactly what the media does...marketing fear to make a sale.

They are unethical bastards using sensational headlines to hook people in to read the article.

[mzmolly]

9. You're factoring in the number of people diagnosed vs. exposed

to H1N1. Many people with H1N1 are asymptomatic. Not to mention most vaccine associated deaths are likely dismissed as an unrelated coincidence. That said, the rate of immediate death from the vaccine is certainly lower than it is with the H1N1.

[comrade snarky]

10. Why in the world would you say most H1N1 vaccine deaths

are unreported? I haven't seen anything to suggest that.

[mzmolly]

13. Most vaccine related

deaths are chalked up to coincidence.

[comrade snarky]

16. I figured that's what you think based on your saying it already

Anything to back it up?

Honestly, I have seen nothing in the vaccine war threads or my own reading about a huge number of unreported vaccine related deaths.


:edited for typo

[mzmolly]

25. I've never said there was a huge number.

But, it's certainly larger than we as a society, admit. The CDC estimates that vaccine reactions are greatly under-reported. 1-10 percent are reported according to their estimates.

[comrade snarky]

32. Fine, huge is arbitrary

But vaccine reactions are usually mild swelling, soreness and feeling a little draggy so it's not surprising they're under reported. I expect a major reason for the under reporting to be that people who have a reaction don't bother to say anything about it.
Lord knows I don't bother.

That's a far cry from under reported death. In my experience that tends to get mentioned to the dear departed's doctor. It strains credibility to believe vaccines are killing people and no one has noticed when efficacy studies have been done many times and anti vaccine activists have been searching for something exactly like that for at least 20 years.

Seems like a pile of bodies would have been noticed in the statistics.

Anyway, we're talking in circles. I'm not going to accept your gut feeling that vaccines are killing people without some kind of proof and, frankly, I don't feel the need to dig into the medical information on a wild goose chase to show it's not happening without something to back up your claim.

So with that, I wish you good night.

[mzmolly]

41. As I've said,

one has to suspect vaccination as a culprit in order for a death to be reported. When we've seen clusters of problems after vaccination, it's chalked up to coincidence. SIDS, for example is a name given to identify the sudden death of babies.

[Confusious]

55. If there were "clusters" the CDC

Would be on it like flies on doo. They are always right there when they have a measles outbreak because of unvacced kids.

Have any more conspiracy theories?

[Confusious]

60. You make the accusation

The burden of proof is yours. Where's your proof.

And I hope it's not an anti-vaxxer site.

[tavalon]

17. That is completely correct

There is a forced bias to that conclusion because we don't want the vaccine companies to feel persecuted. They might stop making vaccines.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Why would they stop making vaccines? They make money and have zero liability.

[tavalon]

19. My life is so much better with just three people on my ignore list

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Ignore, the last bastion of the small minded.

[Confusious]

56. Eh, I used ignore for one the anti-vaxxers

Of course, if I ever met the person and tried to have a conversation, it would be between her/him and her/his imaginary friend with lots of cackling like the crypt keeper inbetween.

[Why Syzygy]

47. Light weight

I have 20. My enrollment period consisted of a zero tolerance policy for rude behavior.
Life IS better without anonymous nobodies flaming you with spiteful poison.

[HuckleB]

61. If that were true, you'd have yourself on ignore.

Your reason for putting people on ignore is that they bring science into the debate.

[uppityperson]

63. aw, betcha I'm one of those who have dared challenge your assertions.

[comrade snarky]

21. Deaths get reported as do vaccinations

If there were a correlation it should be fairly easy to demonstrate.

Unless it's all part of "The Conspiracy". You know, the one about the money and the terrible secret behind professional Jai Alai.

Believe me, you don't want to know.

[mzmolly]

26. It might be easy to correlate

provided medical personal had an open mind about vaccination and it's potential side effects. An RN friend of mine said to me "Dr.s are simply not trained to look for vaccine reactions."

I don't think anyone deliberately denies a correlation, but I do think there is an ignorance promoted by drug companies about their products, vaccines are no exception.

[comrade snarky]

31. So you believe this

Based on a distrust of drug companies and a belief in the incompetence of every doctor and medical researcher in the entire world?

That's kind of out there you know. For example, a lot of money was being made from the diet drug cocktail Fen-phen but then doctors noticed women taking it developing pulmonary problems. That let to a scandal and the drug being taken off the market.

According to your logic this shouldn't have happened.

[mzmolly]

40. Fen fen had minimal benefits and was given to a very small # of people.

Vaccines are administered to over 90% of the population starting at birth. And given our collective faith in vaccine safety, it's more difficult to spot an irregularity and not chalk it up to anything but coincidence.

[Confusious]

57. Fen Fen was a drug

Vaccines are not drugs. You need a disease *FIRST* to create a vaccine.

[Confusious]

59. You don't think that they got experience

When they wiped out smallpox? or drove polio to the brink?

[uppityperson]

35. Why would they stop making vaccines? They make money and have zero liability.

[tavalon]

37. And why do you think they have zero liability?

I'm not against all vaccines but I think our lack of vaccine liability allows companies to be slipshod about vaccine safety.

[trotsky]

46. VICP

Because vaccine manufacturers are largely shielded from liability (and reasonable shielding makes perfect sense - vaccines are not particularly profitable, and the risks of not having enough manufacturers of vaccines are too great), we have the VICP (Vaccine Injury Compensation Program) established by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. The US Government will pay the rare victims of vaccines for damages.

Now the standards of establishing vaccine culpability in this special court are much lower than scientific standards. A "preponderance of evidence" is sufficient, which many experts have summarized as "50% plus a feather." This is also a good thing, as we all take a slight risk with vaccines in order to prevent the much, much larger risk of disease run rampant in society.

Key points to consider about the vaccine court: the US government pays the suing parents' legal fees regardless of whether they win a settlement. In other words, this is FREE MONEY for any lawyer who will represent the parents in court, regardless of whether the lawyer (or the court) thinks the case has merit. These lawyers are of course further motivated to sow and promote any confusion or doubt about vaccines, in order to reach that "50% plus a feather" level and collect bigtime.

As you can imagine, the system is ripe for abuse - BUT if the gov't were really conspiring with big pharma to poison and kill everyone, do you think A) this court would even exist, and B) that the bar for receiving compensation would be so low? We err on the side of injury, not on the side of pharma. The downside is a cottage industry for dishonest lawyers and their paid "experts" like the Geiers, etc.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

49. That is a great post

It should be in its own OP because it provides some good information that is often overlooked (perhaps purposefully?).

[Confusious]

54. Another person for the

"I don't know how the scientific method works" brigade.

[Maru Kitteh]

20. Most vaccine hysteria related deaths are chalked up to stone fucking ignorance.

Unfortunately, too many of those deaths are wrought upon innocent children by their anti-vax hysterical parents.

[mzmolly]

22. Actually every death that is associated with a so called vaccine related preventable disease

is tallied in the "vaccine preventable death" category, regardless of vaccine status.

[Confusious]

58. Have proof of that?.................eom

[trotsky]

45. Because vaccination opponents just make shit up. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. I'm going by the CDC estimates.

Which project a significantly higher rate of hospitalisation and death as a percentage of total infections than the number of adverse reactions to vaccine for the total vaccinated.

[mzmolly]

12. Right.

Total reported infections vs. total number of exposures. The later is impossible to measure.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Impossible to measure, but the number of estimated infections (NB: NOT REPORTED INFECTIONS)

compared to the number of hospitalisation events and deaths is still considerably worse odds than the percentage of adverse vaccine reactions per total vaccinated.

[mzmolly]

23. I have no reason

to doubt that in this case. At least, not in the short term.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

15. Asymptomatic H1N1. Got a link?

[mzmolly]

24. Sure do.

http://emssolutionsinc.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/peru-33-percent-of-h1n1-cases-are-asymptomatic/

"33 percent of people infected with H1N1 influenza pandemic are asymptomatic – they present with no symptoms of the disease." And, "37% Show Symptoms “Cold” Symptoms..."

China states that 45 percent of cases are asymptomatic.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2009/09/02/222953/Experts-45.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. I understand what you are saying.

It is true that about 30% of people exposed to the virus will develop symptoms and become contagious. I would be curious if people who are exposed and develop antibodies but develop absolutely no symptoms ever become contagious. I would think that would be the determining factor in regards to referring to them as infected. But hey I'm just a medic.

[mzmolly]

28. I would imagine those without symptoms can be contagious?

But, if they're not spreading disease by coughing and sneezing it might be more difficult to pass along to others? Not sure though.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. I'm not sure about that either.

Ii know that people are contagious 24 hours before exhibiting symptoms and that people who receive the flumist can pass the attentuated virus to another host. I suspect much of whether or not one is contagious has to do with viral load and lots of other things well above my head.

[Ms. Toad]

38. I got it from my daughter

when she had no symptoms other than vague stomach discomfort (which could just as easily have been caused by her underlying UC). She passed to me (as near as we can tell) by using my computer to send an e-mail to a professor at the stage when she was not yet symptomatic.

I don't know whether people who generally don't develop a significant viral load become contagious - I know my daughter was not yet coughing to be able to spread it that way, and I also know they are concerned about asymptomatic individuals who are asymptomatic earlier than is typical because of Tamiflu potentially passing on virus that has the capacity to learn to avoid the impact of Tamiflu. The recommendation is to stay isolated for the full 7 days - especially if you have taken Tamiflu - in order to avoid passing it on.

...so - viral load, and the ability to infect, are not necessarily related to symptoms in these two instances (pre-symptoms, and post abbreviated flu because of antiviral medication).

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. People are contagious 24 hours before exhibiting symptoms.

[mzmolly]

39. I agree. However the question becomes how does a virus

spread in such cases? For example the flumist can cause flu like symptoms, which might explain passing the germ on. Sharing a beverage with someone when you're asymptomatic, would also be problematic I presume?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. I think it would depend on who you shared a drink with.

[mzmolly]

44. Obviously.

:hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. I guess the moral of the story is be careful who you drink with or...

drink stuff strong enough to kill anything.

[RaleighNCDUer]

62. Undiagnosed vaccine deaths are not likely to exceed, or ever come near to,

undiagnosed H1N1 deaths. There are plenty of people who succumb to pneumonia or heart failure whose deaths are attributed to those immediate causes rather than the underlying flu - yet if someone has gotten the vaccine, it WILL be noted in the medical record and any correlation probably will be made.

[Chemisse]

48. Yeah - this is not bad at all

Actually, my calculation shows it to be 0.00055 percent (36 divided by 6600000 times 100), which is far, far less than the chance of death from swine flu (0.018 percent).

[DU GrovelBot]

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[uppityperson]

36. k for "the rate of reactions is lower than those seen in widespread vaccinations for seasonal flu"

from OP.

[HuckleB]

51. Yup.

[HuckleB]

50. Deaths Not Linked to H1N1 Vaccine: WHO

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=9124390

[HuckleB]

52. WHO Update Re: Safety of Pandemic Vaccines

http://www.enewspf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11684:who-update-re-safety-of-pandemic-vaccines&catid=88888984:h1n1-virus-swine-flu&Itemid=88890169

FYI...