The Infection Schedule versus the Vaccination Schedule

[HuckleB]

(Please read before unrecommending this, thanks.)

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=289

"...

Grand total 1374 potential pathogens, counting Salmonella once. This is, obviously a gross estimate, probably a gross underestimate, of the number of pathogens that can infect us. Obviously, not everyone is exposed to every one of these pathogens. Keep in mind that each organism makes dozens of proteins and carbohydrates for the immune system to recognize and to respond with a specific antibody. I would bet the list represents more than 13,740 antibodies.

All these numbers are rough estimates, ballpark figures as it were. But accurate for comparison. I watch a Blazer game as I type this. I estimate the numbers in this post are accurate to the same degree as the statement: NBA players are 6 foot 7. I paint with broad strokes, but the picture is clear. The number of pathogens and antigens from disease are a humdred times, a thousand times greater than the exposure from the vaccine series.

Remember the comparison: the vaccine schedule is 5 live-attenuated or altered organisms and 21 antigens by age 6.

I wouldn’t give a child 10,000 vaccines. Or 100,000. Or a million. That is what life is for. A million or more ‘natural’ vaccinations from exposure to “the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, the heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to.” I have no problem with the vaccine schedule. I prefer “to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them”. It is a little known fact that Hamlet wanted to be a pediatrician. There is nothing immunologically special about the pathogens targeted by the childhood vaccines. What makes these infections special is their ability to kill and our ability to prevent them.

What vaccinations offer is small, controlled, harmless amounts of antigens and neutered pathogens, rather than the prodigious free-for-all of morbidity and mortality from natural disease.

No matter how you slice it, the vaccine schedule represents a miniscule exposure to antigens and organims compared to what people encounter as part of life. Worrying about the exposure from the vaccine schedule is like worrying about a thimble of water getting you wet when you are swimming in an ocean.'


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I found this to be a most interesting way to look at the situation.

[kestrel91316]

1. Best, simplest explanation of why vaccines are good I've EVER seen:

".........What vaccinations offer is small, controlled, harmless amounts of antigens and neutered pathogens, rather than the prodigious free-for-all of morbidity and mortality from natural disease......."

[pnwmom]

4. The veterinary association has divided vaccines into "core" and "non-core" vaccines.

I wish that pediatricians would do the same thing.

[salvorhardin]

2. I thought David Gorski's comment was very good too

This whole new mantra of “too many too soon” and “green our vaccines” that antivaccinationists are spouting these days is a direct result of the utter failure of their previous vaccine bogeyman, mercury/thimerosal, to show any correlation with autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders and particularly studies showing that rates of autism have not fallen nearly seven years after thimerosal was removed from vaccines. A more resounding epidemiological refutation of the “mercury in vaccines cause autism” hypothesis is hard to imagine.

So now antivaccinationists are moving on to ideas that are much more vague and, more importantly, difficult to falsify scientifically, such as the concept that there are all sorts of “toxins” in vaccines and their new favorite, “too many too soon.” Surprise, surprise! It turns out their fearmongering over this is just as brain dead as their fearmongering over thimerosal was.

[pnwmom]

3. Don't forget to add in the multiple doses of formaldehyde, aluminum, other adjuvants,

mercury (still in flu shots) and other ingredients besides antigens that are in the vaccines. What is the natural exposure to these chemicals that infants would be encountering in life?

From the CDC:

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:21r3WCmGwbMJ:www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf+formaldehyde+vaccine+ingredient&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjWAeA_e974eiLFsPmDEPeodftY_ZukEaJQANzzG8lgF1qg-_Hb8L0XU_67P68BF0TJRrzYOMeD0n2ML8P7GZJV470Aee9DR7-XKskSmgzApv5qIcIdt1wdxpOAj8WMCBRMaIyw&sig=AFQjCNGzpyBYRx5mN3GlwDypXp9Fh_A3-A

[trotsky]

5. The odds are pretty damn good, considering our bodies MAKE formaldehyde.

And we consume far more mercury in our diets than we might receive in slew of vaccines.

So many lies and untruths in the anti-vax movement. Hard to keep up.

[pnwmom]

6. Infants aren't supposed to be consuming mercury -- that's why pregnant women

are supposed to limit their fish consumption.

And aluminum is another toxin babies wouldn't be consuming.

I'm not part of the anti-vax movement, and neither is the CDC. You should think before you pull out your broad brush.

[salvorhardin]

9. Fish bioaccumulate methyl mercury

The mercury in thiomersal is ethyl mercury, which does not bioaccumulate.

Aluminum is found in many foods, especially baked goods.

[pnwmom]

11. The fact that it is broken down more quickly than it accumulates in the body

(that it doesn't bioaccumulate) doesn't mean that it has no effect on the body while it is there. The effect of ethyl mercury "has not been well studied" according to many sources. That is part of the reason thimerosal was eliminated from most vaccines.

[trotsky]

12. There's mercury in breastmilk.

It's everywhere, and guess what? Our bodies CAN metabolize and excrete it.

[pnwmom]

14. And that is unfortunate. But the aim is to reduce it as much as possible, not increase

exposure to mercury in the environment.

And guess what? Not ALL bodies are equally efficient at eliminating it -- for example, people with malabsorption disorders.

[trotsky]

16. Which is part of the reason why thimerosal use was discontinued.

Yet the anti-vaxers continue to harp on it as if it were present in gallon-sized amounts in every vaccination.

Why is that? Why can't they simply argue with facts and instead have to exaggerate and misrepresent?

[salvorhardin]

7. Baking powder

Kids are also likely to get more aluminum in their baked goods than from their entire vaccination regimen. Many forms of baking powder contain sodium aluminum phosphate (otherwise known as soda alum).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking_powder

[pnwmom]

10. Infants don't eat baked goods, either. And aluminum has no function in living cells.

Wikipedia:

Despite its natural abundance, aluminium has no known function in living cells and presents some toxic effects in elevated concentrations. Its toxicity can be traced to deposition in bone and the central nervous system, which is particularly increased in patients with reduced renal function. Because aluminium competes with calcium for absorption, increased amounts of dietary aluminium may contribute to the reduced skeletal mineralization (osteopenia) observed in preterm infants and infants with growth retardation. In very high doses, aluminium can cause neurotoxicity, and is associated with altered function of the blood-brain barrier.<52> A small percentage of people are allergic to aluminium and experience contact dermatitis, digestive disorders, vomiting or other symptoms upon contact or ingestion of products containing aluminium, such as deodorants or antacids. In those without allergies, aluminium is not as toxic as heavy metals, but there is evidence of some toxicity if it is consumed in excessive amounts.<53> Although the use of aluminium cookware has not been shown to lead to aluminium toxicity in general, excessive consumption of antacids containing aluminium compounds and excessive use of aluminium-containing antiperspirants provide more significant exposure levels. Studies have shown that consumption of acidic foods or liquids with aluminium significantly increases aluminium absorption,<54> and maltol has been shown to increase the accumulation of aluminium in nervous and osseus tissue.<55> Furthermore, aluminium increases estrogen-related gene expression in human breast cancer cells cultured in the laboratory.<56> These salts' estrogen-like effects have led to their classification as a metalloestrogen.
Because of its potentially toxic effects, aluminium's use in some antiperspirants, dyes (such as aluminum lake), and food additives is controversial. Although there is little evidence that normal exposure to aluminium presents a risk to healthy adults,<57> several studies point to risks associated with increased exposure to the metal. Aluminium in food may be absorbed more than aluminium from water.<58> Some researchers have expressed concerns that the aluminium in antiperspirants may increase the risk of breast cancer,<59> and aluminium has controversially been implicated as a factor in Alzheimer's disease

[trotsky]

15. Identify what an "elevated concentration" is,

which vaccines contain aluminum, which ones are given to infants and children, and then as a wrap-up, show how the amount in those vaccines begins to approach an "elevated concentration."

Thanks!

[pnwmom]

20. Here are the vaccines containing aluminum. I already posted this, but you

obviously didn't bother to read it.

I can't tell you what the amount of aluminum is, because that is proprietary information.

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:21r3WCmGwbMJ:www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf+formaldehyde+vaccine+ingredient&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjWAeA_e974eiLFsPmDEPeodftY_ZukEaJQANzzG8lgF1qg-_Hb8L0XU_67P68BF0TJRrzYOMeD0n2ML8P7GZJV470Aee9DR7-XKskSmgzApv5qIcIdt1wdxpOAj8WMCBRMaIyw&sig=AFQjCNGzpyBYRx5mN3GlwDypXp9Fh_A3-A

[trotsky]

22. I don't see "aluminum" as an ingredient of any of those.

Aluminum compounds, sure, but you are claiming straight aluminum metal. You're smart enough to know the different between an element and a compound, right?

[pnwmom]

24. I know that an aluminum compound contains aluminum. Didn't you? n/t

[trotsky]

26. But clearly you don't know the difference between an element and a compound.

Ignorance is a terrible thing.

Sodium is an explosive metal. Chlorine is a toxic gas. But you put them both on the food you eat. Are you comprehending a bit yet about the difference between an element and a compound?

[salvorhardin]

18. Once again, the dose makes the poison

If the levels of aluminum in vaccines were problematic, we would expect much wider problems because kids eat significantly greater amounts of aluminum via baking soda than they get from their entire vaccination regimen.

[pnwmom]

19. My babies had no baked goods their entire first year, but they had lots of vaccines.

[trotsky]

23. Did they die from all that aluminum?

Or are they still alive, and healthy?

[pnwmom]

25. The question is, are they as healthy as they otherwise would have been?

And there's no way to know.

But one of my children has damage to her kidneys and liver that university physicians in three different major cities haven't been able to explain.

[trotsky]

28. So you're claiming your children have health problems due to vaccines?

Really? You should sue in the vaccine court - you could get money to care for them.

[pnwmom]

31. No, I'm not. You're twisting things, as usual.

I'm saying that no one knows. A toxic exposure to SOMETHING could be an explanation. But, as I said, doctors at three top medical centers over the course of 15 years haven't been able to nail down a cause.

[trotsky]

32. So you're basing your argument against vaccines on a hypothetical.

Your children *might* have been healthier without vaccines, so therefore vaccines are harmful.

Perfectly logical.

[pnwmom]

34. No, I'm not. I've never argued against vaccines, in general.

If I was against vaccines, my children wouldn't have had so many of them. And I wouldn't have been standing in line for the flu shot yesterday.

But I do argue for the need for more attention to vaccine SAFETY.

[trotsky]

35. Yeah, you are right now.

You're claiming that vaccines aren't currently safe. Your reasoning for this is, well, because you think so.

[salvorhardin]

30. You fail to see the point

The amounts of aluminum consumed in baked goods via baking soda are much, much larger than the tiny amounts of aluminum in adjuvants in vaccines. If the amount of aluminum in adjuvants caused problems, then we would expect the aluminum in baking soda to cause many more problems. It doesn't matter that infants don't (generally) eat baked goods. What matters is the amount relative to weight.

[pnwmom]

33. And one is injected into the bloodstream and one is consumed. n/t

[trotsky]

36. Another factual error.

Vaccines are not "injected into the bloodstream."

Did you not know this, or are you intentionally spreading an untruth?

[HuckleB]

38. Infants don't eat baked goods?

Say what?

[Chemisse]

39. They don't.

They drink breast milk or formula, then are slowly introduced to vegetables, fruits and cereals. Later in the first year meats and eggs are added.

Crackers are okay at about a year of age, if I recall correctly. If you offer them too soon, the baby can choke.

[HuckleB]

41. Sorry, but most infants do get baked goods in the first year.

And many cereals are baked.

[Chemisse]

43. Baby cereals are not baked.

Babies would start to get things like Cheerios later in the first year though.

Most baked goods are too crumbly for babies to eat safely.

[HuckleB]

44. That's not my experience.

[Chemisse]

45. Lol - well hardly worth arguing about

I guess different parents feel their children differently.

[pnwmom]

8. My body doesn't make formaldehyde. (Maybe yours does.)

From wikipedia:

Formaldehyde is an intermediate in the oxidation (or combustion) of methane as well as other carbon compounds, e.g. forest fires, in automobile exhaust, and in tobacco smoke. When produced in the atmosphere by the action of sunlight and oxygen on atmospheric methane and other hydrocarbons, it becomes part of smog.
Formaldehyde, as well as its oligomers and hydrates are rarely encountered in living organisms. Methanogenesis proceeds via the equivalent of formaldehyde, but this one-carbon species is masked as a methylene group in methanopterin. Formaldehyde is the primary cause of methanol's toxicity, since methanol is metabolised into toxic formaldehyde by alcohol dehydrogenase. Formaldehyde is converted to formic acid in the body.

[trotsky]

13. Sorry to break this to you, but your body does too.

Everyone does. I know facts are difficult things when it comes to opposing vaccines, but I assume you're at least willing to use accurate ones, yes?

[pnwmom]

17. "Formaldehyde, as well as its oligomers and hydrates are rarely encountered in living organisms."

I don't know about you, but I am alive.

[trotsky]

21. Here's the truth, you can accept it or not.

From the CDC:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts111.html#bookmark02

What is formaldehyde?

At room temperature, formaldehyde is a colorless, flammable gas that has a distinct, pungent smell. It is also known as methanal, methylene oxide, oxymethyline, methylaldehyde, and oxomethane. Formaldehyde is naturally produced in small amounts in our bodies.

Are you going to spread the other anti-vax lies like there's aborted human fetal tissue in vaccines, too?

[HuckleB]

42. Thank you.

[salvorhardin]

27. Formaldehyde is naturally produced by the liver

Vitamin B (choline) is metabolized to sarcosine, sarcosine is metabolized by the mitochondria in your liver to formaldehyde. The formaldehyde is, of course, further metabolized and broken down.

[trotsky]

29. Maybe in YOUR liver, you big pharma shill!

NOT mine!!! :P

[salvorhardin]

37. Vitamin B11 deficient huh? :D

Sorry, no point to this comment other than to note I meant to type Vitamin B11 in my prior post. B11 is choline.

[mzmolly]

40. Yes, our bodies don't manufacture

"free" formaldehyde.