I'm hoping to start a vigorous debate about Statin's--Cholesterol Medicine.

[trumad]

I have been faithfully taking Lipitor for the last couple of years for my cholesterol. Lately I've heard some arguments that cholesterol may not be the leading contributor to heart decease.

For instance:
Dr. Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD, who wrote the book The Cholesterol Myths, goes through study after study destroying the idea that high cholesterol levels are the cause of heart disease. In the Framingham heart study done near Boston that spanned 30 years , the researchers concluded that high cholesterol was a risk factor for heart disease, but when one really dissects the data, one must question how they came to that conclusion. For example, when the participants of the study are plotted on a graph it clearly shows that those with cholesterol levels between 182 and 222 did not survive as long as those with higher cholesterol levels of between 222 and 261. The study shows that about half the people with heart disease had low cholesterol, and half the people without heart disease had high cholesterol.
http://trusted.md/blog/vreni_gurd/2007/04/13/high_cholesterol_does_not_cause_heart_disease

My cholesterol was around 240 when I started taking Lipitor and now it is at 150.

BUT--- I did not exercise and weighed about 240 at that time.

Today I exercise consistently and weigh 215.

I've decided to quit taking the Lipitor for a month or so, take a blood test, and see what my level is.

The question I have is---- Has it been conclusively proven that Statins reduce heart decease?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

1. Never mind.

I thought this thread was about Stalin's Cholesterol Medicine.

[LeftishBrit]

21. I thought the same at first,, and was very confused!

[jaxx]

2. I don't know, but they sell a lot of statins....

and they were toxic to me. It caused muscle pain and weakness until my leg gave out. Also caused a 'fog' as in it affected my perceptions. Once I went online and read all the stuff about them, and the fact that what I had could be permanent I quit them. Took 3 weeks to wake up from the fog and I still have muscle pain and some weakness. The doctor said this was the bad side of statins.

My level was 200 to start with, dropped to 100 and from there on it was misery. Be careful of statins, their side effects can outweigh any good.

[tanyev]

3. Marking to check this thread later.

Hubby recently started taking a statin. He was diagnosed with diabetes (Type 1) back in March. He's thin and was a regular exerciser up until a couple years ago. His cholesterol number was not that bad, but since he's diabetic they want to get it lower. I have mixed feelings about this.

[AngryAmish]

4. Statins may have a protective effect beyond lower cholesterol

Lipitor lowers heart disease and strokes. It also lowers cholesterol.

BUT - correlation is not causation.

There may be a cardio-vascular benefit beside lowering cholesterol.

But not all statins are alike. Only some (like Lipitor and it's generic equivalents) have this protective effect.

I'm not a doctor and I am not 100% on this controversy. All drugs have potential for side effects. There are some articles out there on this topic that can explain it much better than I can.

[happyslug]

5. For someone whose cholesterol count was over 800, Lipitor does prevent Heart attacks

But the issue is NOT people like me, with high cholesterol and triglycerides but people with more reasonable levels of those two numbers. In that area the record is less clear AND the issue is more what type of cholesterol? HDL or LDL? Exercise changes "bad" LDL cholesterol to "Good" HDL cholesterol. The total cholesterol number stays the same, but people with high LDL and low HDL levels tend to have heart attacks much more then people with High HDL levels. Exercise is the best way to convert LDL to HDL, Niacin (Vitamin B-3) is #2, with fish oil #3 and no one else any where in the same ball park.

For more on HDL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_lipoprotein

For more on Niacin, Vitamin B-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin

I should point out my Doctor strongly recommend that I exercise, which I do but even with exercise and being on Liptitor for over ten years (And before that Lipod) AND Niacin, AND Tricor AND Zetia (Which removes cholesterol in the bowels as oppose to the liver with the statins) my numbers are just about 200. I have NOT had Angina (pain in the chest, which I had in my 20s) since I started on these medications so they are working. The Stalins do they job of reducing cholesterol. The real issue is what is the "ideal" cholesterol level? Especially given that you NEED HDL AND LDL Cholesterol for your body to function.

[seemunkee]

8. 800??

Holy crap, never heard of anyone with it that high.

[happyslug]

19. Yes, I had that in my 20s, I had little bumps develop on my elbows starting about age 21

When I first obtain medical insurance I had it checked out, but before I could start any regime I lost my job and went back to school. When I was 31 I obtained my present job, with medical benefits and had those "Bumps" looked at. By that time there had to be at least 20 on my left elbow and a slightly lesser number on my elbow. When I first mentioned them to my then new doctor he said they may be a growth and he knew a surgeon that could remove them. I then said it was on BOTH elbows, he asked my if I had any on my Knees and I said no. He then sent me for blood work where the 800+ Cholesterol and 540+ Triglycerides showed up. He put me on a diet, exercise AND medication (Which have changed over the last 20 years). As my levels of BOTH Cholesterol and Triglycerides have dropped the bumps slowly disappeared.

Now, subsequent research told me the bumps were Cholesterol droppings depositing on my elbows for that is where you have restrictions as to blood circulation AND the cholesterol had to be pushed by the blood either through the blood lines OR some place else. In the case of Elbows it was in the form of the little bumps I mentioned earlier.

Anyway as part of my Research I found out there were Five Types of High Cholesterol and Triglycerides. Type 1, is high Cholesterol and low Triglycerides non-family related, Type 2 is the same but Family related. Type 4 is Low Cholesterol and high Triglycerides, family related, Type 5 is the same by NOT family related. As you can see I am NOT type 1,2,4 or 5. I am in the middle, which has little evidence of being family related (i.e Type 3 Cholesterol and HIGH Triglycerides). Please note, since I did my research the medical community has adopted type IIB, to make this even more confusing. Type II B, like type III has increase level of Cholesterol and Triglycerides. I believe I have type III, but it may be Type IIB. I believe it is III for the simple reason I had some of the highest level of Cholesterol and Triglycerides. In the older books the authors were willing to give a onset date for most people on Type III (i.e. early 20s as was my case) but more recent authors want to avoid making such a call (in case that it is NOT 100% correct, some people can NOT understand that the diagnosis of many disease are intended as guidelines NOT deadlines, thus they want to avoid something that may NOT affect all person who suffered from that disease). I accept the fact the symptoms are guidelines and thus my condition may be type IIB instead of Type III but I lean to the Type III do to the high levels I had, without medication, of Cholesterol and Triglycerides (and type III calls for Extremely High levels of both, which I had, I do NOT see that in the writings for IIB).

[Bitwit1234]

6. Well

Mine dropped after the doctor put me on lipitor. And I don't know if it helped but my blood sugar dropped..I take diabetis medicine, but it dropped after starting lipitor.

[seemunkee]

7. I tried niacin and fish oils for close to a year

It made no/little difference in my cholesterol levels.

I also exercise at least 3 times a week, ride my bike 50-100 miles in the summer and have dropped 20 lbs. Still my cholesterol is high.
I have high BP and diminished kidney function so I don't want to increase my risk of other health issues, so I started on Crestor a few months ago. Cholesterol levels have dropped to the 150 range

[JanMichael]

13. What amount of niacin did you take? I've been taking 1000/day...

...in what is called Simcor. That's 20mg simvastain and 500mg niacin per pill two at a time.

I had high triglycerides and suggested to my doctor (not the other way around) that niacin may reduce them. It's only been two months so I'll get tested again next month.

If 1000mg/day doesn't work I'm willing to up it to 1500 maybe 2000. I haven't had any flushing yet.

[ldf]

14. i thought it was advised to NOT

take niacin while taking a simvastatin. it tended to cause muscle loss... especially in we older folks.

i'll take generic simvastatins for a few months, then stop. i don't want the possibility of the side affects.

when not taking the simvastatins, i'll take niacin. i take fish oil off and on. i am nothing, if not inconsistent.

[seemunkee]

24. I was on 1000mg

I found that I had flushing problems when I bought the noflush formualtion, but not with the regular.

[Kokonoe]

9. Well, I refuse to take statins.

Cholesterol is not the problem, but chemical reactions like oxidation of cholesterol and calcium is involved (deficiency?)
I brew tea for the anti-oxidant properties and also stay away from high fructose corn syrup.
My fear of statins is just a hunch, but I trust my instincts and they have been correct on other issues.

[glitch]

10. I am with you on that. I don't think their long term effects on liver-pancreas function have been

fully studied.

People with mildly high cholesterol are being prescribed statins and that is too much risk for too little benefit. IMO.

[leftyladyfrommo]

23. Lipitor and Parkinson's?

I have a friend who swears up and down that her husband's Parkinson's was caused by Lipitor. He is really disabled now.

I don't take anything anymore. It would be different if I trusted the drug companies but I don't. They have completely destroyed my ability to believe anything they say about any drug.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

11. Oatmeal. nt

[trumad]

12. Kick for the night crowd

[ldf]

16. i tried that for a year.

no benefit in cholesterol level, whatsoever.

also red rice. nothing.

[knitter4democracy]

15. From what I remember reading in the ex's med journals, yes.

Ask most doctors, and you'll hear that they joke about putting it in the water supply. Statins do a lot of good.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. There is a correlation between statins and loered incidence of heart disease

No cause and effect has been established, but the statistical relationship is quite strong and causing further studies tio take place.

(I take Mevecor and have since my heart attack. My cholesterol and trigs are down to nice, safe, comfortable levels.)

[flvegan]

18. Go vegan.

Exercise, keep your weight in check, eat a responsible vegan diet.

Just thought I'd introduce that to the discussion.

Cholesterol-free popcorn for everyone -----> :popcorn:

[Hannah Bell]

20. some other opinions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christiane-northrup/buyer-beware-statins-are_b_246566.html

Half the people who have heart attacks have normal cholesterol (even though guidelines have been repeatedly changed since the 80s to put an ever-increasing % of the population on statins).



DOING THE MATH
The second crucial point is hiding in plain sight in Pfizer's own Lipitor newspaper ad. The dramatic 36% figure has an asterisk. Read the smaller type. It says: "That means in a large clinical study, 3% of patients taking a sugar pill or placebo had a heart attack compared to 2% of patients taking Lipitor."

Now do some simple math. The numbers in that sentence mean that for every 100 people in the trial, which lasted 3 1/3 years, three people on placebos and two people on Lipitor had heart attacks. The difference credited to the drug? One fewer heart attack per 100 people. So to spare one person a heart attack, 100 people had to take Lipitor for more than three years. The other 99 got no measurable benefit. Or to put it in terms of a little-known but useful statistic, the number needed to treat (or NNT) for one person to benefit is 100.

Compare that with, say, today's standard antibiotic therapy to eradicate ulcer-causing H. pylori stomach bacteria. The NNT is 1.1. Give the drugs to 11 people, and 10 will be cured...

Plus, there are reasons to believe the overall benefit for many patients is even less than what the NNT score of 100 suggests. That NNT was determined in an industry-sponsored trial using carefully selected patients with multiple risk factors, which include high blood pressure or smoking. In contrast, the only large clinical trial funded by the government, rather than companies, found no statistically significant benefit at all. And because clinical trials themselves suffer from potential biases, results claiming small benefits are always uncertain, says Dr. Nortin M. Hadler, professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a longtime drug industry critic. "Anything over an NNT of 50 is worse than a lottery ticket;


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_04/b4068052092994_page_2.htm



When the cholesterol guidelines were revised 2001 I (non-scientific routine dietitian chart reviews in a small rural hospital) started noticing more diagnoses of rhabdomyolois. I'd not been familiar with it until then; in my med refs it was described as "rare". It's my *opinion* the increase in cases was related to increased statin use at increased rx levels. It's also my opinion that numbers of cases aren't investigated as r/t statins. Even when pt. was on statins, some docs wouldn't make the connection, & I didn't initially make it either until i read up after wondering why i kept seeing patients with this "rare" dx.

e.g.:

"Rhabdomyolysis is a relatively rare condition in everyday life. The rate of rhabdomyolysis in the general population is difficult to establish with certainty, but was estimated by one U.S. study to be about 2 cases per 10,000 person-years.<20> Another study found 26,000 cases per year in the U.S."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhabdomyolysis


& of course, there's the general level of politics & graft involved in "expert panels" for drug approvals these days.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-nih22dec22,0,1505130.story

[snagglepuss]

22. Do you have high blood pressure? nt