Here's my problem with the anti-vaccers...

[Barack_America]

Continuing from this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6842477&mesg_id=6842477

The decision to not vaccinate their children out of fear of autism requires others to take a risk they themselves are unwilling to take.

They assume the risk of their child contracting a life-threatening childhood disease is lower than the risk of their kid contracting autism from vaccinations.

Why is the risk of polio, measles, etc. so low, permitting them their choice?

Because most people vaccinate their kids.

They need 99% of kids exposed to what they perceive as a risk, so they don't have to expose their kids to it.

That, IMO, is selfish and bullshit.

Vaccines are not just about protecting yourself and your kids.

If enough people opt out of vaccinations these diseases will start to come back, and the anti-vaccers "choice" will effectively be gone. (not to mention the lives of a lot of innocent kids)

How many pictures like this...



...in our country do you figure it will take for anti-vaccers to trample their so-called "evidence" on a collective stampede to their pediatricians' offices?

Oddly enough, it is the success of our vaccine problem that allows the entertainment of completely unfounded links between things like thimerosal and autism.

[Orrex]

1. I think it looks funnier if you spell it "anti-vaxers"

And if Big Pharma weren't profiting so hugely from its deliberate campaign of injecting poisons into the veins of our children (OUR CHILDREN!!!!1!), I'm sure that even the nuttiest anti-vaxer would admit that it's maybe just a little bit better to have a slightly sore arm for a day or so than to die from polio.

[Robb]

9. They don't realize flu vaccines are a tiny portion of pharma profits.

There was a thread about the $2 billion or so in sales the vaccines meant for them the other day. It's less than 1% of their annual sales.

[Orrex]

17. Way to catapult the propaganda, Dingbat!

I read on an Andrew Wakefield website that the Gardasil vaccine alone rakes in $500 trillion dollars annually.

[trotsky]

35. Annually?

Try DAILY, putz. Those EVUL BIG PHARMA MONSTERS are KILLING US ALL and MAKING A ZILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

[Oregone]

2. HEY! LOOOOKIE MEEEE!

I have something important to say that wont cut it as a reply in another posts. Looookie!

[Barack_America]

3. Yep. I'm that important.

Didn't you get the memo?

On edit: When possible, I try to refrain from hijacking other people's threads. It's not polite.

[Deep13]

56. HEY! LOOOOKIE MEEEE!

I have no reasonable response to the OP so I will resort to a childish ad hominem attack that does nothing to refute the OP's premise.

[EndersDame]

4. I submitted to the commie-fascist Gov't of Texas and got my puppy her Rabies shot

She wont get the disease her self nor pass it on to others. I also got her the Distemper/Parvo etc shots not required from the state but simply because I don't want to go through the pain of an ill or dead loved one just yet. Woe as me being fooled by Commie -Fascist Science. Maybe I should just pray to God she doesn't get these diseases

[xchrom]

6. +1

[xchrom]

5. ...

:applause:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

7. Wired did an excellent article on this:

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/?cpage=1

[xchrom]

11. i read that -- ++1 --

however -- i don't REALLY excuse people with trumped fears of Big Pharma.

fear of institutions has gone too far -- and too many anti-vaxers -- especially here -- are anti- woman, anti-child right wing actvists -- they know how to mind their pz and qz enough to stay on board here.

[Barack_America]

16. That article is superb.

I'm almost finished with it.

I like the approach of trying to find out why these people believe these things.

[trotsky]

36. Wow, thanks for that link.

It totally rocks.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. I think this is a very serious issue

because of that, I think the name calling portion is not appropriate. And ineffective. It is a personal indulgence that makes the use of that photo a questionable thing. I'm being very sincere here, the way this issue has been discussed has been really bad, and those who are promoting the vaccine are not looking very reason based with the hyperbole and campaign style monikers for those who do not agree. The voice of science does not use terms like 'woo woo' or anti vaccers.
These silly personality games are so petty, especially if children are actually at risk. And they are. There are many population groups that have damn good reason to be suspicious of the government and health industries. Such mistrust was well earned and it is a wrong done to those people, not done by them. Some of us are related to people who were actual victims of testings, many more watched our government sit motionless and silent while dozes of our peers died, one after the other. If you have not experienced these things, well good for you. But for many who have, the fears are real, and need to be addressed with respect or not addressed at all. The public health is not an area to turn into a clique playground. That method will only drive more people away, you can not bully people into trust. And it is a trust issue.

[Barack_America]

10. I don't mean it as a "name". I mean it as a description.

A way of summarizing "one who refuses to vaccinate their child based on fear of developing autism".

If you can think of a more neutral term to describe such a person, I will edit my post.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. You just wrote one yourself. Now edit it.

And it is not just autism, it is many things. The desire to have a label to use for a group of people is part of the basic problem. It is not the people you object to it is the choice they are making, so why the need to describe 'the people' instead of the action. Those who refuse to vaccinate. Those who do not vaccinate. The point being that they are human beings, and attempting to care for their children. If they are wrong, and that endangers the children, then the parents need to be educated, gently and with care. Anyone engaging them to serve their own sense of themselves or to make a snark or feel righteous is wallowing in really nasty karmic territory if you ask me.
As I noted, there are actual and personal reasons for many individuals and groups to distrust the health authorities. If your loved ones had died in such a manner, you'd simply not be so flip about it. Protesting Insurance Companies is all the rage these days, but my first was in the 80s because they were presiding along with the government over the deaths of thousands of people and willfully ignoring the greatest health crisis of our lifetimes, for years. Can you tell me that trust in those entities should be automatic, after such criminal and murderous behavior?
I am reminded of the primaries, when every white and straight person in America called Rev Wright names for his questions about AIDS. Because those straight, white people had never heard such theories. I had, many hundreds of times. Since the early 80s. And the theories were made more reasonable by the actual actions of the government and health industries. Don't like it? Go make fun of people who saw half their circle die while the government denied there was a crisis, and see if that helps get kids vaccinated.
And note, I'd get it today if I could. But I made an informed choice to do so, not an automatic, Daddy says it is safe decision. To trust those entities so blindly, well, that ship sailed when I was too young to vote.

[Barack_America]

14. Huh?

Which term was that?

The whole thing doesn't fit in the space allowed for a title, hence the need for a shorter descriptive term like "anti-vaccer".

[LeftishBrit]

55. The point is that for some people it is not just an action, but an ideological cause

There are some people who don't just refuse vaccination for themselves or their families, but who engage in protests against vaccines; who appear on television, write articles and books, go on websites, etc. to oppose vaccinations in general or particular vaccines. I agree that not everyone who refuses vaccination is motivated by an opposition to vaccines for most people; but some are, and do campaign against some or all vaccines.

I agree that one should distinguish between those who are opposed to all vaccination, and those who oppose just some vaccines, and perhaps call the latter 'anti-MMR'; 'anti-Gardasil'; etc. rather than anti-vaccine. But the ideological opposition does exist.

ETA: health authorities,governments and doctors have often denied people life-saving treatments through stinginess, uncaringness or ignorance. I would not trust a health authority's directive implicitly without considering; but I also would not assume that they are part of an evil conspiracy. Some of the opposition to vaccines comes ultimately from the ideology that 'government should not provide healthcare' and more generally the poison of right-libertarianism. And I would trust the far-right portions of the media, and right-wing websites, less than I would trust anyone else!

.

[mzmolly]

34. The more neutral term is "pro-safety/choice"

:hi:

[Euromutt]

54. I think you need a new dictionary

Yours appears to have the entries swapped for "neutral" and "self-serving bullshit."

What the hell is "safe" about kids dying of vaccine-preventable meningitis, as happened recently in Minnesota and Pennsylvania? What's "safe" about 10% of California elementary schools being at risk of outbreaks of measles, mumps and pertussis? What's "safe" about a more than 20-fold increase in reported cases of pertussis in the U.S. over the past thirty years? What's "safe" about the fact that polio hasn't already gone the same way as smallpox (eradicated by vaccination), which might have been achieved by now if it weren't for baseless superstitions blocking vaccination programs in places like Nigeria and Pakistan? What's "safe" about measles becoming endemic again in the UK (with attendant deaths) because herd immunity has been compromised?

And speaking of herd immunity, what "choice" are you giving kids who can't vaccinated for medical reasons, and rely on herd immunity to not get exposed to various diseases? What "choice" do you want to extend to the children in those California elementary schools who are being placed at risk because of NIMBYs like you?

[Chemisse]

19. You make a lot of sense.

I have been stunned by the unwillingness of people to have respectful discussions about a couple of topics here, this being one of them.

It has seriously ended my 'honeymoon period' with DU.

Some of the name-calling, narrow-mindedness and huffy superiority is just so republican-like.

[ipaint]

12. There have been numerous scientific studies and none

prove a link between autism and vaccines. The only study done by the anti vaccine crowd was not only unscientific it was a deliberate fraud.

This is hysteria and irrational fear run amok. And some folks are making a ton of money spreading dangerous lies.

[xchrom]

20. more -- much more -- needs to be made about the money made

by spreading anti-vax hysteria.

[mzmolly]

15. If vaccines are effective, than you've got nothing to worry about.

Also are adults who've not had recommended boosters "anti-vaxers" who are "putting others at risk?"

Adult Vaccinations You Need

* Tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis (Td/Tdap): a booster is needed every 10 years. A pregnant woman who had a shot 10 or more years earlier should get a booster during the second or third trimester.

* Human papillomavirus (HPV): three-dose series given to females age 11-26 who haven't already received the vaccination.

* Varicella (chickenpox): two-dose series given to adults with no evidence of immunity to the chickenpox virus. Pregnant women should not get this vaccine.

* Zoster (shingles): one-dose vaccine for adults 60 and older. Pregnant women should not get this vaccine.

* Measles, mumps, rubella (MMR): one or more doses given to adults with no evidence of immunity. Pregnant women should not get this vaccine.

* Influenza (flu): yearly vaccination given to adults 50 and older. This is also recommended for younger adults with certain medical, occupational, and other indications including chronic heart or lung disease, diabetes, health care workers, or residents of nursing homes. The vaccine is available as a flu shot and nasal spray flu vaccine. The flu season can range from October to May, and the CDC recommends vaccination throughout the flu season.

* Pneumococcal: given to adults 65 and older and adults with certain medical, lifestyle, or other indications including cigarette smokers and residents of nursing homes. A one-time booster is given five years later.

* Hepatitis A: two-dose series given to adults with certain medical, occupational, lifestyle, or other indications including chronic liver disease, illegal drug use, and health care workers.

* Hepatitis B: three-dose series given to adults with certain medical, occupational, lifestyle, or other indications including chronic liver disease, sexually active adults who are not in a monogamous relationship, injection drug use, and health care workers.

* Meningococcal: one or more doses given to adults with certain medical or other indications; commonly given to college students living in dormitories or military recruits.

http://women.webmd.com/guide/adult-immunizations

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Barack_America]

24. I even had to have my titers checked before starting medical school...

...because my pediatrician had thrown out some of my records.

It was a lucky thing too because I had lost my measles immunity somewhere along the way. So I repeated the entire MMR series. I also had to have HepB as an adult (just missed it as a child). I also had the H1N1 yesterday. And have an appointment for the seasonal flu and TB test next month.

So yeah, they keep us up to date, which I am glad for.

[mzmolly]

26. And this is the thing BA.

How many adults, like you and I, are no longer immune to various disease?

[Barack_America]

29. If you're asking if I advocate titer checks for adults, I do.

Or at least additional MMR and varicella boosters for people even if they've had chicken pox.

We need more vaccinations, not less. As the diseases we've been vaccinated for have declined, we've become far too lax, as evidenced by even being able to consider an unsupported link between vaccinations and autism as a reason not to get them.

[mzmolly]

32. My point is that we're inconsistent in placing blame.

Also I don't believe we've become lax. Compare vaccine coverage levels in the past three decades to current levels:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/coverage.pdf

Contrast compliance rates with rate of reported disease - note the decline of XYZ when we had much LOWER compliance?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

Can you see for example that in 1985 we had about a 50-60% vaccine compliance rate (yet polio supposedly declined dramatically) and today we're over 90% and we're concerned that people aren't vaccinating?

Its just not so that more and more parents are refusing to vaccinate. How can we claim success in eradicating disease with a compliance rate of 60% and panic because it's now at 90%?

:shrug:

I think we have an unsupported fear that parents are not vaccinating because some are looking for small areas (see the local Waldorf School for area scapegoats) ;) where there might be a 1% increase, but overall it's simply a false assertion.

Peace :hi:

[mzmolly]

25. So when did you have your boosters?

My practitioner checked with me once. While I was pregnant she recommended an MMR jab due to a lack of immunity in spite of my being fully up to date on the recommended boosters. In hindsight her "pro-child" stance (that I get the vaccination while pregnant) turned out to be bad advice. OOPS!

[xchrom]

37. i see the doctor every 90 motherfuckin days.

he -- or she -- checks every fuckin detail -- never had bad advice from my doctors and buried two lovers.

if you have a bad doctor -- and present yourself as being so fuckin smart -- get a new one.



:hi:

[mzmolly]

38. I did get a new Dr. -

long ago. The practitioner I saw during my pregnancy was someone who specialized in this kind of care.

So when did you have your adult booster shots?

:hi:

[xchrom]

39. LOL -- my personal inofrmation has no bearing on this discussion.

:hi:

but i've never ever seen a practioner.

[mzmolly]

40. When you demand that every two month

old do what you apparently will not do, it is pertinent.

For the record, I saw a medical practitioner when I was expecting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_practitioner

[xchrom]

42. why isn't this post deleted? -- you don't know what i do or don't

in my dr's office -- other than i volunteered that if i was behind on xyz -- it was taken care of on the spot.

yet you want to conclude i lie -- or tell some untruth re: my own health care -- anecdotal at best.

but you -- you and your early assertions that measles and mumps were mild diseases that are best dealt with exposure to other sick children. -- in spite of the historic waves of death, crippling out comes made viable lack of vaccination techniques.

you belong at right wing forums that support your superstitious, uncivilized ignorance. and i suspect you are there regularly picking up your 'talking points'.

yet you have NOT ONE NOT ONE significant and absolutely verifiable piece of evidence that the current vaccine regimen isn't the correct and best one to take -- including h1n1.


barbaric and uncivilized and ignorant only BEGINS to describe your assertions.

[mzmolly]

43. You're demanding to know what parents decide

in regard to vaccinating their children, yet you refuse to say if you've had your adult booster shots? I'll take your non-answer to mean "no, I'm just another bloviating hypocrite." You belong on right wing forums that support your hypocritical do as I say, not as I do stance.

Rush Limbaugh would approve!

[xchrom]

45. takes one to know one. nt

[mzmolly]

46. LOL

Communicating with you I'm reminded of grade school, once again. ;)

[Barack_America]

21. I am current on all of those vaccinations*. Including H1N1 yesterday.

But thanks for giving me the opportunity to double-check!

*Besides the ones not indicated for me, such as HepA and Meningococcal vaccines.

[mzmolly]

22. Yes but are most adults? How about parents and those you work with?

:shrug:

[Barack_America]

28. I agree that we need to be more vigilant on this.

Absolutely.

It's paid attention to in women of childbearing age and people in the health care industry, but we need to do better. The resurgence of whooping cough in both the adult and pediatric populations has shown us this much.

[mzmolly]

31. I believe the resurgence is primarily due to the awareness campaign the CDC put forth

given we finally have an adult booster to promote. Bronchitis and Pertussis are often confused for one another, and Drs. have been known to rule out diagnosis of disease based upon vaccination status.

My sister and my BIL are in the medical profession. I have a great deal of respect for Dr.s/Nurses etc. but I don't respect money driven science very much. ;)

[DeltaLitProf]

48. Would you be so good as to help us find some science that is NOT money driven?

Isn't it all? Doesn't every large study depend for its financing on money? From the government, from universities, from corporations, from philanthropists?

Is someone out there funding studies out of his own pocket?

[gkhouston]

41. Actually, I am. I was ridiculed by a doctor for wanting to get boosters for

various vaccinations before trying to conceive. I ditched the doctor and went to the county health people, who were only too glad to update my shots while cautioning about the proper length of time to wait before trying to conceive. The thing that annoyed me most was the doctor claiming that measles "didn't happen anymore" when in fact the last time I'd had a booster was during a measles outbreak.

[mzmolly]

44. You're one of the few here who do not demand that children do what they

themselves will not. ;)

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

23. All this talk of shots, brings to mind the fact that I'm over 10 years since

my last tetanus shot. Ooops. This I will correct.

[Barack_America]

30. I'm just about 8 years myself.

I was just thinking I should go back in just in case.

If I can get another MMR booster too, I'll take it.

Consider the appointment made.

[central scrutinizer]

27. Not that long ago...

A couple of years ago I went to a family reunion in Nebraska. All of the branches of the family pulled out their family trees. What was striking was the high rate of childhood deaths. Almost every family lost at least one child to some childhood disease. The extreme was the family that had nine children - only 2 lived past age 14. The others died of whooping cough or some other disease that we have almost forgotten about. These diseases are too far removed from our memory.

[mzmolly]

33. Keep in mind other advances in

medicine since that time.

[trotsky]

47. There is a vocal group within the anti-vaccine movement...

whose arguments and logic take a page right out of the eugenics handbook. They feel that because they or their family got out of those diseases without suffering much, that they are somehow healthier or more fit than others. And correspondingly, those who DIDN'T or DON'T survive just weren't strong enough and our gene pool is better off without them.

Others have the horribly misinformed idea that antibiotics, fever-reducers, and quarantine would be enough to stop the spread of vicious diseases should they arise again.

Really, we are victims of our own success when it comes to vaccination. Suffering and death are so far removed from us, the anti-vax nutters start to see ghosts that aren't really there and honestly believe that vaccination is more dangerous than the original diseases were.

Now THAT'S fucking crazy.

[xchrom]

49. ++1 -- that is one prime argument

that has been running around here forever -- it makes me so mad i see red.

it just so run your head into the brick wall jack ass stupid.

[beam me up scottie]

50. I saw a post advocating measles "parties" on one of the anti-science-based-medicine parenting sites.

The chorus chimed in with the usual ignorant anecdotes "Well I/my relative/coworker/chiropractor/mystic fren knew someone who had measles and they said it was NBD, just like chicken pox!"




edit punc

[xchrom]

51. anti-vaxers had all the voice here some time ago --

and one prominent -- now wanting to seem moderate member -- actually talked about and posted about -- AT LENGTH -- about how
these diseases weren't really problematic.

there is a connection between these people and right wing forums. -- for now it's problem lining them up.

[beam me up scottie]

52. It's like they're proud of being stupid.

Some are incapable of understanding the science, many don't even try.

One poster suggested that Warpy was better off having had polio because the vaccine would have been much worse.

And then we have the "Vaccines caused AIDS/HIV" faction.

I think anti-vax conspiracy threads should be sent to the dungeon or deleted, they're not just embarrassing, they're dangerous.

[xchrom]

53. it's horrifying.

we have posters here trying to pass off as as 'moderate-- i'm not against all vaccines'' -- and yet who used to advocate exposure to
communicable diseases as though they were nothing.

well what can i say?