Be warned about the dangers of Prozac like drugs (SSRI anti-depression medications)

[Th1onein]

I found the motherlode of news stories linking these medications with violence. Here is the link: http://ssristories.com/index.php

Here is an example of a tragedy, from a news story listed on this site:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4236200,00.html


'Four people dead is four too many'

Don Schell was taking a Prozac-type antidepressant when he killed his wife,
daughter and granddaughter, then turned the gun on himself. His son-in-law
sued the drugs company - and won £5m. Sarah Boseley meets him

Sarah Boseley
Guardian Unlimited

Thursday August 9, 2001

Tim Tobin was an ordinary guy with a wife and a baby daughter living in small
town America and that was just fine. He and his family were simple, normal
people, he says. They didn't want to be anything different. He and Deb, his
wife and their nine-month-old baby, Alyssa, lived in Montana, but they spent
a lot of time over the Wyoming border with Deb's parents, Don and Rita
Schell, in the small oil town of Gillette. Alyssa was the first grandchild
and everybody adored her.


It was the life they wanted. Tim and Deb expected to bring up their children
in Montana, just as they had been brought up themselves - close to
generations of people they held dear. But it all went shockingly wrong.


In February 1998, Deb and the baby were staying with her parents in Gillette.
Deb was there for a break and stayed for two weeks because she got ill while
she was there. Meanwhile, her father Don was feeling low. He had suffered
occasional bouts of depression in the past and it had happened again. The
doctor put him on an antidepressant called Paxil (Seroxat in the UK) - a drug
in the same class as Prozac.


Two days later, Don Schell, the non-violent family man and doting
grandfather, took a .22 calibre pistol and a 357 magnum in the middle of the
night and shot dead the three people in the world dearest to him - his wife
Rita, his daughter Deb and baby Alyssa. Then he killed himself. The following
afternoon Tim Tobin found the scene of carnage that will stay with him as
long as he lives.

[Gman2]

1. Almost did that myself. Prozac. Took two weeks of meditation.

[Orrex]

64. What did the meditation enable you to achieve? And were you still on Prozac during those two weeks?

[Fiendish Thingy]

2. Remember that tens of millions take SSRI's without lethal side effects

This is still an important issue, and "black box" warnings exist for some SSRI's, especially for teens, because of stories like this one. However, to completely dismiss the use of SSRI's for depression is unwarranted, just as is using SSRI's as the primary/only treatment for depression.

[Th1onein]

3. I think that the risk outweighs the benefits

At least until someone does further studies on people who are prone to violence, both while taking these medications, and while coming off of them.

I think that these cases are not widely publicized. If they were, there would be a clamor to take these drugs off of the shelves.

[Dappleganger]

13. I think

that you've never lived with real risk until you've lived with someone who doesn't take those kinds of meds when it could really help them. I would argue that many people on SSRI's have a MULTITUDE of problems which can lead to violence or some kind of mental breakdown.

NOT taking SSRI's for many, many people is NOT an option...for either them or their families. Without them many people couldn't stay married, parent their children, hold down a job or just be fit for human society. I think that doctors are not trained well enough and are not spending enough time w/their patients to notice symptoms of new problems.

BTW, I've got a father who is bipolar, ADHD, PTSD, diabetic with a seriously traumatic childhood as well as early-onset ALZ. He's been misdiagnosed/over or under-medicated so often it hurts to even think about it.

[Th1onein]

33. I think that, given the situation with doctors and the sytem in which they're operating....

those things and these drugs are the dangerous "cocktail" that we are brewing when we choose to use these compounds without having enough information about them. I think that that is a deadly combination and that other compounds have been used for decades without these sorts of deleterious side effects. I think that doctors are overprescibing these drugs.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be treated. There ARE alternatives to these drugs, for the treatment of depression and anxiety. I'm not even saying that these drugs don't help many of the people who are taking them. What I'm saying is that the risk is very high, and the price grisly, given the circumstances. I think that the FDA and the pharmas, knowing the outcome of some of these combinations of circumstances, drugs, and people, have an obligation to do more work on these compounds and to find out, besides by using the entire human population as a petrie dish, WHY some of these people committ mass murders while on these drugs.

[timeforpeace]

20. It's the other way around. They are truly miracle drugs, heal intrinsic problems in human's brains.

It's the cases like the one you cite that are over-publicized. Wasn't necessarily the SSRI.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluerthanblue]

48. I KNOW you are wrong-

and there ARE warnings given to everyone who starts any SSRI's to watch for the side effects you mention.

It's easy to speak about the risks/benefits of these medications from the comfortable place of not ever having need of them. It's quite another to know that they have helped keep you alive.


I'm one of the latter.

:hi:

[havocmom]

56. how many people dead from alcohol related violence or mayhem on the roads?

If it is lives you want to save, start with substances which destroy the most lives first.

Anti-depressants can be a godsend for many, but, and it is a big point, people need to be under supervision of doctors who are actually well versed in such medications. Your family GP is NOT the go to guy for this stuff.

One pill does not fit all, another reason close monitoring by well experienced doctor/staff is essential. A medication that is a good fit can do amazing good. The wrong fit can be a disaster. Patients need to be completely honest with their treatment team. Holding back any changes in how one relates to life can end in death. By same token, treatment team has to take it seriously and stay available to patients given such medications.

A little something to make someone feel better is NOT the attitude either patient or doctor should have. Cognitive therapy, or at the very least, regular (and I am talking WEEKLY) visits with a team psychologist is probably essential to good outcome.

But, really, the right match of patient and med can be a miracle.

If you really want to go after things that destroy lives, start with trying to get alcohol treatments more readily available, make sure your state takes DUIs seriously the first time someone gets one, stop the slapping of wrists on that point! And work for affordable mental health care, removing stigma from the idea of asking for and receiving help.

The place to start is not banning drugs which have helped so many when administered responsibly and with the necessary monitoring.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

93. You're full of shit

There have been a ton of studies done into the effectiveness of SSRI drugs and THE BENEFITS FAR OUTWEIGH THE RISKS. Your hysteria is complete bullshit, and totally irresponsible. Someone who really needs these drugs may read your post and decide not to do something that could help them immensely. And maybe they later commit suicide because of the bullshit misinformation people like you throw around.

SSRI's saved my life - plain and simple, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for these drugs. If you want to highly publicize these rare, isolated incidents, then you also need to highly publicize the millions of us with true success stories. If not, you're simply being an hysterical ignoramus.

[tinrobot]

97. So, someone committing suicide is more acceptable?

These drugs can literally save lives in those who are severely depressed and suicidal.

[LiberalEsto]

4. I think his problem was

that he chose to own guns despite having psychiatric issues.

[The Straight Story]

5. Hmmm from what I hear here it is the chemicals in guns that lead people to violence

Rubs off via the handle and turns any gun owner into a psychotic killer.

Can't possibly be something else, it would crush the dreams of gun grabbers every where....

On side note, thanks for posting. Interesting reading.

[EFerrari]

6. Imho, the problem here isn't the SSRIs, which millions of people take

with no problem. It's the lack of proper stabilization and monitoring. THAT can be very dangerous with a lot of psych meds.

[pitohui]

9. that's my opinion as well -- this risk is very well known -- peeps need to be stabilized/monitored

i have myself been threatened by gun by a person who had just started his script, so the issue is a bit personal to me - turned out he had been mis-dx'd as depressed but was in fact bipolar and should have never been given prozac in the first place -- his current script is a pretty complex cocktail of drugs (including an SSRI) that took a long time for them to figure out

in my opinion, most of the risk could be easily averted if people were monitored in a hospital setting for a couple, three weeks to see how they are adjusting to the SSRIs -- however, this costs money and insurers want people to just pop the pills and go -- they think the drugs should be handed out INSTEAD of any period of hospitalization

we see a case like andrea yates, where the woman was obv. seriously disturbed, her previous meds weren't working, and now they change their meds -- 2 weeks later she has murdered her kids -- this didn't need to happen if someone had simply hospitalized her until they saw how she reacted to the new meds -- she was already a suicide risk to begin with

what happened to hospitalizing someone who is a threat to self or others?

people who can use SSRIs safely could still do, those who can't and start to have violent impulses, could be safely handled in the hospital and switched to something else

but, oh no, hospitals cost money and as far as insurers and even patients sometimes, they just want to pop the pill and go and just hope they're not of the minority that then goes crazy and wipes out their own family

[Shandris]

37. I was md'ed with depression instead of bipolar

and on Paxil. Thats some scary, scary stuff. I somehow kept a journal (all written in stream-of-conciousness) at the time that, rereading it now makes my skin crawl. I had lucid nightmares for months upon months, but even worse was that I couldn't remember ANYTHING longer than one sentence and sometimes not even that long. I mean like 'start talking and forget my subject 6 words in' forget. I didn't have a car at the time (not that I likely could have used it), most of my friends couldn't bear to watch me. Spent an entire summer in my tiny apartment because another medicine made me unable to go out in sunlight.

I reported all those things, but they didn't seem to match up to 'accepted side effects'. It was really strange how they disappeared exactly 2 days after I stopped taking it. I decided I had survived long enough as I was, to hell with the other stuff. Lots of people take them safely, yes, but I agree with people who have said lots more go unreported or underreported/mischaracterized.

[Liberation Angel]

110. Thanks for this post - Glad you made it off the stuff

and happy you are here to share

[Why Syzygy]

63. Hospitalization might be a good idea.

But, some people don't even live through the drug trials. There has to be a better way to determine who is not a suitable drug candidate.

snip
Starting with the death of 19-year-old Cymbalta test subject Traci Johnson in 2004--who hanged herself in the Lilly Clinic in Indianapolis and had no history of mental problems--it has been beset by reports of baffling, rapid, unprovoked, and out of character suicides.

A 37-year-old man described in the Feb. 2008 Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology with a stable marriage and employment and no history of mental problems tried to kill himself with carbon monoxide two months after taking Cymbalta for back pain. "The patient was unable to state exactly why he wanted to commit suicide," write the four physician authors all with the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Kansas Medical Center who note he returned to normal when the drug was stopped.

A 63-year-old man with no history of suicide attempts or ideation was similarly "unable to explain why he was having thoughts of wanting to die," say the authors after becoming suicidal two weeks after being put on Cymbalta for fatigue, insomnia and sadness.

Last January, a Texas man prescribed Cymbalta for peripheral neuropathy because of a job that required him to be on his feet all day with no history mental problems "had a normal day at work, drove home, said he was going to grab a sandwich to his wife, and went and shot himself," his family wrote a reporter.

In Feb. 2007, a 19-year-old Wisconsin college student recently put on Cymbalta "checked out books for a paper he was to write over the weekend," emailed his resume "to see if he could get a spot on Obama's team for the summer" and "then hung himself from his loft bed in his dorm," writes his family. One month earlier, a 21-year old Midwest college student, recently put on Cymbalta, took his own life three minutes after speaking to his family while driving home and sounding fine, the family wrote a reporter.

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/127393/pharma_giant_looking_for_new_diseases_to_treat_with_drug_linked_to_suicide/?page=entire

[Dappleganger]

53. +1

[lurky]

7. Tragic. I'm pretty skeptical that antidepressants make

people go out and kill, however.

I have heard that sometimes when someone who is despondent and potentially suicidal begins taking an antidepressant, there can be a tricky period when the drug is first starting to kick in. Basically, the person is still suicidal, but the drug increases their energy enough that they can actually go through with the act instead of just fantasize about it.

[Th1onein]

8. People who are NEVER violent, all of a sudden turn into homicidal maniacs.....

after taking these drugs? And there is no link between the two? Hmmm. I think there's something missing in your logic. And, apparently, a few juries and lots of experts in the field disagree with you, as well.

[hedgehog]

18. Well, it's rare that someone gives SSRIs to someone after

they've turned in to a homicidal maniac......

I believe the problem isn't the drug but how it's administered. The use of SSRIs is credited with lowering the suicide rate, and teenage suicides went up after doctors reduced prescriptions. Depression makes it difficult to get the energy to do anything. I think sometimes the SSRI lifts the depression just enough to allow someone to act on how he perceives the world. Clearly talk therapy should be use din conjunction with the drugs.

[Th1onein]

50. I think that it is a biochemical problem.

There is a very delicate balance they are messing with, when they manipulate levels of neurotransmitters. Some people are more prone to violence when this happens.

[cliffordu]

10. All those people bathed in water, too.

SSRI's save lives, I can name a half dozen or so off the top of my head....

Millions of people take them safely - (the societial need for such drugs is another conversation...)

This OP sounds STRANGELY like the stuff spewed forth by the Scientology of the Braindead cult.

They HATE prozac.

[The Straight Story]

12. Same is true for so many other things

many others have said similar about a lot of topics:
guns, smoking, pot, religion

IE - the negative gets the press while the positive does not. And if you post something positive about something you are considered a paid shill, if you post something negative you are just trying to save people from something.

Both can be true though - the drug may well help a ton but a few have a chemical issue that creates a whole different affect (seen this a lot with codeine and such and how people react to it).

So I would think it good that we point out what can happen but also note that we think many can be helped -, to wit: let people know the side affects so they can keep an eye out for them.

[cliffordu]

14. Yep.

[blueamy66]

29. I'd like to offer an anecdote here...

but last time I did, I was chastised and told that "anecdote" doesn't equal "fact".

So I'll keep quiet. :(

[cliffordu]

57. Anecdote away.

[HuckleB]

62. In reality, anecdotes are fun, but they don't help us understand reality very well.

[etherealtruth]

11. SSRIs are drugs whose use need to be closely monitored

These drugs help thousands live productive greatly improved lives. I wish the hell of depression on no one. As has been stated in this thread prior to me, the larger problem is the lack of oversight by physicians, and other professionals, of the people prescribed these drugs. If one is sick enough to require the drug, one needs monitoring to determine the efficacy of the drug and to monitor for untoward effects.

These drugs save lives, but they are not without risk.

[Mari333]

15. Its prescribed by GPs and not by qualified Psychiatrists

anyone can go into a doctors office and say "Im depressed" and wham bam without serious psychiatric evaluation, they are handing this stuff out like candy.
Im sorry, but I believe only after a person is evaluated by a certified psychiatrist should they be given this stuff.
I was in deep grief and told my physician, and he immediately ran to his cabinet of goodies and asked me if I wanted to try some free samples of Paxil...I said wtf, how much of a kickback do you get from Big Pharma for handing that shit out?
I tried some once..had a psychotic reaction..
and if one is in deep grief, well DOH you are supposed to be depressed for christs sake

I know they work on some people who need them and have been DULY EVALUATED by competent psychiatrists..but to hand them to any tom dick and harry who comes in with some depression??? forget it.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

16. I'm one of the lucky ones, my PCP sent me to a Psychiatrist.

Even though he knew that depression is common after heart attacks, he said the exact thing that you just said. A PCP is not qualified to diagnose something like depression or the correct medication needed to combat it. He's a great doctor and he did save my life when I had the heart attack, but he made the remark that he's beginning to think that Glenn Beck might be right. So................

[morillon]

24. That has been my experience, as well.

There are GPs who hand out these powerful psychotropic drugs like they're TicTacs. Many of them have no idea of the proper protocols for ramping patients on or off the drugs, either. I've known several people who had really bad withdrawal from Effexor because their GPs didn't know that the drug has to be stepped down gradually instead of stopped cold turkey.

I don't think anyone other than board certified psychiatrists should be able to prescribe antidepressants.

[HuckleB]

60. So let's do away with GPs!

Let's have nothing but specialists!

Woo hoo!

[Odin2005]

17. I seriously couldn't function without Paxil. ALL drugs have potential side effects.

Without Paxil I'm too depressed, anxiety-ridden, and obsessive-compulsive to do anything.

I'll guess that these "SSRI's made me go out and kill people" incidents are mostly from people with Bipolar II that are misdiagnosed with plain old Depression (a misdiagnosis that is very common, unfortunately). I have Bipolar II and my psych is always reminding me to get a hold of him if I ever think that the Paxil may be causing manic behavior.

[dionysus]

92. i take sertraline and never had a problem with it.

[HughMoran]

19. ...and people who don't take meds never kill anybody

(I took Prozac without issues as millions of others have)

[AuntPatsy]

21. nice pic..feel the same..

[HughMoran]

22. This is posted over and over and over again by people who've never taken Prozac

We get it already! If they really wanted to give people a heads up of potential side effects, they'd post it in the Health forums with the appropriate title, not here in GD with some overdone headline.

[AuntPatsy]

23. agree

[EFerrari]

26. The clueless ignorant media feeds this kind of paranoia

when they have no bleeding leading story. It's an old standby.

Half of the stories at that link aren't even reliably about SSRIs anyway. If I had the moral energy I'd do some fact checking on the rest but, it's just not worth it.

People don't need to be afraid of Prozac. They need to demand adequate medical attention when they are taking prescription drugs, period. :rant:

[Liberation Angel]

36. I strongly disagree EFerrari, prozac CAN kill

I urge folks to take a look here just for background info.

The links re valuable.

IF you are on an SSRI there ARE alternatives which can help if you have an open mind and can find a doctor and practitioner to help you (I would NOT try this on my own if I had become dependent on SSRI's). The withdrawal can be worse than heroin. But with good medical/clinical advice it can be done)


http://ssristories.com/

[EFerrari]

38. Have you ever been on heroin?

Or are you relying on these sensational websites for your information?

And given the millions of people who safely and productively use these meds, you do understand that these stories, even if most of them are true which I doubt, not only attribute bad outcomes to the drug but also account for a tiny fraction of 1% of users?

Going on or off SSRIs or ANY psych meds should only ever be done under medical supervision. And the experience is different depending on you and your status. When I went off of mine, I had a slight headache for a few days. When my partner did, he decompensated and was alternately too activated or bed ridden. But that speaks as much to his schizophrenia as it did to the drug.

You can't generalize about the "withdrawal" from SSRIs because not everyone even has one.

The bottom line is, you must work closely with your doctor and not with one-sided internet sites.

[Liberation Angel]

46. I have lived through withdrawal with persons on both prozac and heroin

and I am relying on experience not websites BUT

what i found was that these website confirmed and documented what I had experienced and what the medical establishment does NOT want people to hear.

It is exactly BECAUSE we need balanced info (and not just the "happy pills" perspectives (both absolutely pro or absolutely con) that i posted the links.

I do agree that you need a skled practitioner to get off addictive SSRI's and to heal the underlying problem.
I have no problem with "pills" per se (I strongly avocate natural thyroid prescriptions for those suffering from low thyroid depression and mental diseases caused by damaged thyroid or other hormonal factors. I also adovcate medicinal herbs in pill form as a treatment regimen (St John's Wort is preferred in Europe to Prozac BUT needs to be carefully used -Using at night while you sleep may be the best use of St Johnswort as the effects can be very much like prozac and leave you feeling ill too - at night it helps with restful sleep and makes the days brighter)

I seriouslly object to your claim, though, that only a tiny fraction of 1% of users have these harmful side effects. The dangerous side effects can affect almost 100% of users but the negs are weighed against the alleged benefits.

MY POINT IS...

That treatment of the underlying CAUSE of the depression to STOP IT and heal ourselves is the best altrnative to addiction to dangerous medications that are likley to kill some of us and which do NOT heal the underlying illness.

Thyroid disorder CAUSES many of these illness of the mental biochemistry and endocrine systems and hence treatment for the damaged thyroid CAN alleviate depression, bipolar and other disorders like OCD and even some forms of socalled schizophrena.

Our minds react to chemistry and when they are assaulted in their environment these response are natural responses which CAN be healed naturally. Bt NOT if the oly response is to treat the symptoms and never address the cause.

[EFerrari]

49. Okay. Imho, if you wait to find a cause rather than work at harm reduction,

you're going to lose a lot of people.

None of this is easy. :hug:

[Liberation Angel]

51. The cause MAY be thyroid disease in 50% of cases or more

and hence the TREATMENT would be natural thyroid supplements which would alleviate the depression and other brain chemistry problems caused by a damaged brain chemistry.

Since many people do not get properly diagnosed the doctors put them on SSRI's and they NEVER get the proper treatment and they NEVER get off the SSRI's.

Granted, I am not looking for causes. I know that MANY cases are caused by damaged thyroid glands caused by environmental toxins.

Just IMAGINE how cool it would be if you could HEAL the underlying rpoblem and n longer deal with the side effects of the SSRI's?

ONE cause is already known (check the DSM for any mental disorder and you will see that thyroid problems are listed as a rule out condition re: causation - Yet most doctors do not adequately test or treat or evaluate this problem).

It might be easier sometimes than we are led by the AMA and pharmaceutical industry to believe.

(Let me add that I often get into debate with natural practitioners that there must be an herbal or natural remedy to heal the thyroid. The fact is that nothing in nature can anywhere near replicate, as far as I have been able to determine, the actual thyroid hormones required by our brains for normal functioning EXCEPT desiccated thyroid extracts from other mammals such as cows or hogs. So for treatment a prescription of these little white pills is required.)

[Liberation Angel]

69. The CAUSE is already known. That is Hypothyroid disorders CAUSE depression and

many of these other illnesses being treated with SSRI's nd other harmful drugs.

I am just suggesting that people educate temselves and get reliable testing from alternative sources (because most old school doctors do not have a clue about this stuff)

and I am not suggesting just quitting.

I ams aying people should become informed and look at the POSSIBILITY that they can be fuly healed WITHOUT continuing the SSRI's (except that some sde effects of SSRI's may be permanent).

SSRI's are a dangerous drug whereas thyroid treatment is VERY safe and effective AND natural (and inexpensive once you are diagnosed properly)

It might help someone for me to point this stuff out

[HughMoran]

42. I went on and off Prozac twice

It's not that bad at all. Usually you "get off" a drug like Prozac because you are feeling quite good and I kept forgetting to take it. Knowing that it had a very long half-life, this "forgetting" was a good way to ween myself from it as I would take it the next day, or every third day until it was out of my system. Comparing it to heroin is fantastical however - you really shouldn't make silly arguments like that - it makes you look desperate and uninformed.

[Liberation Angel]

67. I lived through it several times with a close friend

it was hell for that friend.

[HughMoran]

44. ...and with healthcare reform, perhaps your doc won't see sheer volume as dollar signs

...and spend more than 10-15 minutes with his patient. I swear - if I ever flip out and off somebody, it's going to be the doctor who's been brushing off my issues for the past 3 years and it turns out to be something serious.

[EFerrari]

45. It took me almost 7 YEARS to get anti-psychotic meds for my ex.

And strangely enough, once his (new, private) doctor (that I had to beat the bushes for) found the right mix, Doug's life changed entirely. He was functional. He didn't go off once a week or lash out at me with his 300 lbs of untreated paranoia. He could work and interact with people and have pets and friends and a life. He may be coming to a town near you and he's now able to update his stand up act because he has the use of his BRAIN.

Yeah, I'm right there behind you. Me and my middle finger.

[EFerrari]

25. I haven't killed anyone yet, either, except

a bunch of germs, lol, because on Prozac I go on cleaning binges.

:hi:

[mamaleah]

31. LOL! Cleaning binges are sort of satisfying though.

I can say with confidence that anyone can lick any surface in my home at any time and not contract noro, rota, or some other nasty bug.

[Zomby Woof]

35. We all know the thread-starter

is a chronic DU shit-stirrer.

[REP]

41. +11

Mine goes up to 11. It was specially made.

[HughMoran]

43. I thought I was having deja-vu

So I did see this same shit from this poster - i thought so.

[Roon]

27. I take Zoloft, Risperdal, Buspirone, and Seroquel.

If it wasn't for this combo, I would be one miserable person.

[ShortnFiery]

47. Amen! Plus, whenever anyone begins to take a new medication, their psychiatrist

is bound to monitor, follow-up within weeks and caution their client concerning ANY potential side effect and adverse relations.

Prozac may be ideal for one person but create horrible side effects for another with clinical depression.

Unfortunately, we can't predict which SSRI will work best for each individual stricken with such disorders. :(

[Roon]

52. My shrink had me figured out in the first fifteen minutes i saw her..

she wrote out a script and that was it. I did go back because I was having trouble sleeping but she wrote me out a script for that and I have been as happy as a clam. (or as happy as anyone can be with full blown aids)

My shrink is this little tiny Japanese girl and she is an MD. I can't believe that she has cut up human bodies before!!! :scared:

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. I hear that. I was put on Cymbalta and went NUTS. Turned out it was the thing that finally got

my bipolar diagnosed. Am on better meds now, but not as stable as I would like.

[Jim__]

28. Has his use of Paxil actually been connected to the murders?

One of the reasons Paxil is prescribed is major depression. Was this guy suffering from major depression? Has major depression been connected to acts of murder?

I don't know about Paxil, but many SSRIs take about a month before they're effective. If this is true for Paxil, its doubtful that after 2 days it would have had this radical effect.

[juno jones]

30. Xanax did for me.

Not a SSRI, I know, but prescribed in similar circumstances (in my case, post partum-depression). A few days of those suckers and my depression became a black mood. I kept getting these very logical thoughts about how I should just kill my son and myself and be done with.

Fortunately, I recognized it a drug reaction and sent my kid to live with my parents for a week while the stuff wore off. Hellish week. I have had bouts with depression since my teens. This was like nothing I heve experienced before or since.

When I returned to the councillor I was seeing I told her of the episode. She was suprisingly airy about it. Said it was a 'retrograde reaction' regrettable but very rare and would I like to try something else. I declined, the episode scared me straight with anti-depressants. I figure no matter how horrible I feel, it cannot be as bad as that horrible feeling of being obsessed with committing violence toward my loved ones.

When I see SSRI's and xanax mentioned in stories like these, I just gotta shake my head. They do seem to work for many people, but I think there should be more warnings to users about possible side effects as well as increased doctor supervision while taking them, especially the the crucial first few months and withdrawl periods.

And don't even get me started about the people I've known who abused these substances in a recreational manner. Scary.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mamaleah]

32. 'Four people dead is four too many' - better avoid aspirin too then. And antibiotics. And water.

In fact, best practice would be to never ever ever ever ever leave the house again. Or eat or drink....ever.

SSRIs help many people who are not just experiencing short term depression or anxiety. Many people simply need the help that these drugs offer to get through the day.

You have no idea how awful it is to not be able to function due to what I like to call "rolling panic attacks". They cripple you. And SSRIs help with those. Depression is crippling too. Therapy combined with SSRIs is always wonderful too.

[Liberation Angel]

34. Happy Pills, environmental/pharmaceutical toxins and Hypothyroid disorder

There is much more to this than meets the eye.

Many discussions recently on this subject hve glossed over the homicidal and suicidal ideation caused by Prozac and SSRI's as well as the addictive dependency it causes.
My aim with this thread is not to criticize but to educate on some of the causes of depression and the dangers of misdiagnosis etc.

The pharmaceutical industry PUSHES these drugs and their "effectiveness" harder than damn near anything while IGNORING the environmental causative factors in possibly a vast majority of the cases.

I urge folks to read on

K&R by the way, but I see the pro-pharmaceuticals crowd is keeping this off the greatest page

too bad

these are critically important issues

please read more for actual positive info you can use here:




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6402485

[EFerrari]

39. There's no doubt in my mind that Big Pharma would like us all

to buy their product and be in hock to them forever.

But it's also true that millions of people have better lives because they have access to drugs that are administered and monitored by a responsible physician.

Baby / bath water.

I will never minimize anyone's bad experience with prescription drugs -- because I know to a certainty that we don't get good enough monitoring most of the time. But that doesn't make the drug "bad" -- that's a health care access problem.

[LeftishBrit]

115. Great post!

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberation Angel]

66. Paxil is an SSRI and you may have hypothyroid disorder and NOT

need it at all.

But the medical establishment convinces people that they NEED SSRI's while NEVER TREATING the underlying cause.

I never used the word shill AND I never called you out. But I am sure there are plenty of propharmacy shils here just as with the health care issues.

SSRI's are their biggest sellers and like cigarets they want people addicted. dependent and convinced that they need them.

I just tried to provide info so that people who do not LIKE being dependent on them (as you believe you are) can get OFF of them possibly.

Call me names if you want. i am just tying to help. There ARE alternatives.

BTW; PDR reference page on side effects of Paxil:

What are the possible side effects of Paxil?


Side effects cannot be anticipated. If any develop or change in intensity, tell your doctor as soon as possible. Only your doctor can determine if it is safe for you to continue taking this drug.

Side effects may include: abnormal ejaculation, abnormal orgasm, constipation, decreased appetite, decreased sex drive, diarrhea, dizziness, drowsiness, dry mouth, gas, impotence, male and female genital disorders, nausea, nervousness, sleeplessness, sweating, tremor, weakness, vertigo

[LeftishBrit]

116. You are right that some cases of depression are really thyroid deficiency...

but:

(1) Many aren't. There is no single cause for depression.

(2) Thyroid treatment can have side effects too. I know at least one person with diagnosed thyroid deficiency who came off the treatment due to not being able to tolerate the side effects.

[HuckleB]

61. "Addictive dependency...?"

What planet are you living on?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Liberation Angel]

68. nice

I suppose you didn't read the info at the link which was intended to HELP people who might want to get off SSRI's?

Maybe want to heal themselves rather than be dependent on big pharma for the rest of their lives?

It is just my opinion, but it is one based on a lot of experience with the dark side of these drugs.

[ShenandoahAspen]

40. I am on Zoloft and Risperdal.

Started taking them two years ago after winding up in the hospital and being diagnosed with severe depression. Those medications have saved my life, and the lives of millions of others also on them. Don't judge antidepressants based on a few incidents that may not have even been caused by the medications to begin with.

[Liberation Angel]

71. My belief is that many cases of depression are caused by thyroid damage

A traumatized thyroid gland will cause depression and many environmental toxins do traumatize and permanently injure the thyroid so that the brain chemistry is negatively affected.

check out the links I posted for more info (Mary Shomon)

[and-justice-for-all]

54. I take Paxcil CR with no ill effects...nt

[cliffordu]

59. I'm digging the Lamictal, myself....Keeps me sane and out of the hole.

Spent a lot of years completely off the hook looking for this kind of relief.

Whatever works. I'd fuck little green frogs if it allows me this kind of stability.

Ribbett.

[Liberation Angel]

70. well, hypothyroid disorder can cause bipolar symptoms

you can look that up

[cliffordu]

72. Been checked for that and a brazillion other possible causes.

As it turns out, I'm just crazy as a shithouse rat.

Could be worse. I could be my half brother; He's a republican dittohead.

[Liberation Angel]

73. again my point is that often standard tests fail to diagnose hypothyroidism

or related hormonal and brain chemistry issues

That is why I referenced the mary shomon website

it might help get a better treatment

if you check it out

I hope

worth a try

[cliffordu]

74. Thanks anyway, but if it were hyperthyroidism, the Lamictal wouldn't have worked.

I just hate it when people try to diagnose mental illness over the innernet.

Maybe I should go off my drugs, wait a month, come to YOUR house and you can fix me right up!!!!

Wear a cup and headgear.

[Liberation Angel]

75. Its HYPO thyroidism anyway but meds work on tne symptoms NOT the cause

so you have to stay on them forever.

Anyway, ask your doctor about your thyroid and check out the DHSMIV to confirm that hypothroid disorder can cause the same symptoms as bipolar disorder and cn be treated with throid mdiction NOT SSRI's which have dangerous side effects.

Just keep it in mind when you talk to your doctor and check out the MDs who do the temperature test to see if you have too low body temp...

it can't hurt to get checked


it might even help

[cliffordu]

76. It might- but if I go off my meds and kill myself will you support my wife???

I'm kinda disgusted at your hubris and ignorance.

[uppityperson]

99. hey to you too

yeah, you be nuts and hypothryoid isn't your problem. But read bqck to my last 98 post, it can cause problems, including depression, carpal tunnel syndrome, fibromyalgia. If the info is not for you, then perhaps for others since standard thyroid tests aren't accurate and having low thyroid can exacerbate other things.

I'd like to see and that little green frog though. Or maybe not.

Headed home tomorrow from 2 wk vacation visiting family in Normandy. Oh the cheese! the bread! the pommeau!

[salvorhardin]

77. Why would he want to check with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles (DHSM)?

I think you mean the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV).

Unless he has dry flaky skin, constipation, swelling in his extremities, a puffy face, a really slow heart beat (bradycardia), and an intolerance to cold, it's more likely any manic or depressive symptoms he has are caused by a mood disorder than hypothyroidism. I'm pretty sure most doctors when presented with primarily physical symptoms are going look for a physical disease before they decide their patient has bipolar disorder.

And the reason hypothyroidism is discussed in DSM IV is so doctors and psychiatric professionals can do a differential so as to be fairly confident of what is truly going wrong with their patient.

[cliffordu]

78. Thanks for that.

I'd just as soon bait/flame/bait/flame morons like the one I've been fiddling with here - but sooner or later the truth has to shut them up, and I'm happy that there are folks around who can dothat. I'm too lazy.

And I wondered why my last check up was at the DMV.....

:rofl:

[Liberation Angel]

79. Hey

It was a typo

Really, I was just trying to help

[salvorhardin]

86. Make sure you get your oil checked

People often think they have a bad spark plug when in fact they're dangerously low on oil. :D

[cliffordu]

87. My antifreeze has been low ever since I sobered up.....

[Liberation Angel]

80. But IF HE HAS these symptoms (any of them)

it may be thyroid disorder CAUSING the bipolar disorder.

The problem i that mst physicians re not familiar enough with hypothyroidism or the problems with the standard tests.

Frequently the symptoms of brain chemistry problems are evident when the other symptoms ar not so evident.
That is why the info is there, exactly.

But most doctors who prescribe for bipolar and depression do NOT test for hypothyroid problems and if they do they do not know enough to even ask about other symptoms.

And of you trust the pharmaceutical and medical industry just look at the criminal conviction today for pfizer involving, among other things, treatments for mental disorders. Medicl providrs were being bribed to push certain medications.

Jeez, I really am only trying to help.

[Why Syzygy]

81. You're new to this forum.

The person you are replying to is on my ignore list, which indicates they have a habit of insulting.
Don't worry about it. You'll discover there are a few here who do implicitly trust the government/pharmco/medical establishment, UNTIL an individual of one of those groups disagrees with the standard party line. It's a partisan position and cannot be persuaded.

[salvorhardin]

84. If you have me on ignore

Then how could you know it's me replying to her?

BTW: It's not an implicit trust of establishment, so much as it is that we find Fristian diagnosis of people over the internet by nonmedical professionals to be deplorable. It's one thing to say that you think mood disorders are over-diagnosed, antidepressants over-prescribed or hypothyroidism under and mis-diagnosed but to tell someone that their doctor is malpracticing when one has no possible means of knowing such or even the skills and training to make that decision clearly leapfrogs the meridian dividing misinformed bullshit from dangerously irresponsible quackery.

[cliffordu]

90. What you said.

[cliffordu]

89. Well.....

I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me
I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me
I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me I hope it's me

:rofl:

Here's your list:

:hurts:

[salvorhardin]

85. It's not like he's gushing blood from a big gaping wound in his abdomen

Any single one of those symptoms is indicative of dozens of illnesses. You can't look at just one symptom and say, "Aha! You have Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Get this man some levothyroxine, stat!" You have to look at the patient's history, the whole constellation of symptoms, consider all the disease processes that might cause them, and then carefully eliminate them one by one until you're left with the most likely cause of the patient's symptoms. That's what a differential diagnosis is. The dude said his doctor tested his TSH levels and they were normal. That's what allowed his doctor to comfortably rule out a thyroid disorder. Could his doctor have been wrong? Maybe. But his symptoms improved after treatment for bipolar disorder. That suggests his doc was right on.

I know you're just trying to be helpful, but it's one thing to say hypothyroidism is often misdiagnosed. It's another to tell someone their doctor's diagnosis is wrong when you have no evidence. The difference is that between informed opinion and uninformed, and irresponsible, meddling.

[uppityperson]

100. "normal" TSH means squat, sorry. I was "normal" and if not so uppity,

should have been in the hospital. My symptoms were severe hypothyrodic, very low temp, very slow moving/thinking, ratchety eye thingy when I looked up or down, yet my TSH was "normal". My problem was I have a nonfunctioning thyroid (got it nuked) and I wasn't absorbing the brand I was on (which was, funnily enouigh, Synthroid). They talked about admitting me since I was so s l o w , but decided to send my home under supervision for the day after changing brands.

"That's odd, you are severely hypothyrodic, yet yout TSH is in the normal range" spoke my doctor.

Now I get t3, t4, including free t3t4 as well as TSH done.

I agree with "it's one thing to say hypothyroidism is often misdiagnosed. It's another to tell someone their doctor's diagnosis is wrong when you have no evidence". Presenting alternatives and such is a good thing to do, but diagnosing on the internet isn't. Having gone through what I have, I understand that poster's desire to pass on info though also.

[Liberation Angel]

101. I did not say the MD' diagnosis was wrong, I said it COULD be wrong

btw I worked in the medical field in environmental medicine. I am not an MD. But my job included assessments of diagnoses and determinations regarding second and even third opinions re: causation and treatment.

I have been working with medicinal herbs for decades and my father was also an herbal and holistic, naturopathic practitioner.

[cliffordu]

88. Thyroid conditions cause bipolar disorder like my ass causes the weather in china.

Shit. Give it up.

[Why Syzygy]

91. If you were

a drinker, as implied above, odds are very good that you do have hypoglycemia. It can cause mood disorder symptoms. Not the same as bipolar "disorder". Hope you take care of that diet-wise, since there aren't any pharmaceutical treatments.

ref: post #89. you don't know your numbers yet?

[cliffordu]

94. Hypoglycemia would have not been abated or changed at all by an anti-seizure

medication.

Say, you two aren't leftovers from the old Mindspring cabal, are ya??

Scientologists, mebbe???

[Why Syzygy]

95. Busted!

[cliffordu]

96. Ah......

very good.

[Liberation Angel]

103. If you want to trust the pharmaceutical industry that is your business

But there are some who do not and may not have this info

And no I think scientology is pretty much crap

[Liberation Angel]

104. DSM IV Manual info: Hypothyroid IS a cause of bipolar symptoms

and actually if you have hypothyroidism causing the symptoms then you are not actually bipolar. It is possible to have BOTH , however, but to say there is no reltaion is orresponsibe and denies what the DSMIV says about it.

Here is a link one set of studies to address the issue:


http://books.google.com/books?id=IAUMO-dZY24C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=DSMIV++Hypothroid+Bipolar&source=bl&ots=gNrzdg4uBd&sig=bFBi-ND9MeVTYFb0NlHpmhA9Tnk&hl=en&ei=Z86fSqGQDoiz8Qap8PD0Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Read the laboratory studies section.

Then print it out and bring it to your doctor.

You're welcome.

[cliffordu]

106. So if I've been tested for thyroid prollems a couple of times in the past,

you would still obsess about me and my thyroid??

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

:hurts:

[Liberation Angel]

108. it is more for others but

again, standard tests, as i can attest from experience, miss this condition.

time will tell.

it mat not be your thyroid, but in the study i linked it was a factor in a high percentage of bipolar cases. depression too.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

98. hey

hi to another one of we "get your thyroid checked and NOT just TSH" peoples who have been run through the mill and have a clue of all the crap that hypothryoid can do.

Mary Shomon's site saved my life, literally. Was hyper, nuked, hypo on several different brands of synthetics. Got severely hypo on synthroid brand, very low temp, ratcheting eyes, not eating; etc etc etc with a TSH in "normal" range and a doc who was confused but able to see that I was not ok. Found a ND who got me on armour and now am ok. Not good but ok.

So, continue to educate and hi

[Liberation Angel]

102. Many thousands have had the same experience being misdiagnosed

I originally learned about this from the Broda Barnes foundation and book

Barnes was an MD who did the seminal research on hypothyroid disorder and alternative ways of assessing damaged thyroids.

On thing that is missed is the fact that almost all human being living on the planet today get exposed to environmental man made radiation from nuke testing, nuclear power plant emissions and effluents etc. and that when these radionucleides are absorbed by the thyroid gland it causes it to malfunction. thus damaging our entire endocrine, immune and hormonal systems (and wreaks havoic with the brain chemistry).

But this is a dirty secret that the major industries involved want to keep from the public. politicians and doctors know little or nothing about it and there is a major orporate PR effort to keep the lid on this.

Glad you get it and thanks for the welcome.

If I hadn't lived through hell with this in my family and found a practitioer who got it I know I probably would not have survived.

[Liberation Angel]

105. Bipolar Disorder Linked to Thyroid Disease (link)

Bipolar Disorder Linked to Thyroid Disease
Thursday June 16, 2005
New research findings presented at the Sixth International Conference on Bipolar Disorder have found an association between an abnormal thyroid condition and bipolar disorder, pointing to the possibility that a simple blood test could help identify those at risk.
Willem Nolen, M.D., Ph.D., of the University of Groningen Medical Centre, Netherlands, found that bipolar patients were twice as likely as healthy subjects to develop autoimmune thyroiditis. Among the offspring of parents with bipolar disorder, who usually have an increased prevalence of bipolar and other mood disorders, there also was an increased prevalence of autoimmune thyroiditis.


More at link:




http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/06/16/bipolar-disorder-linked-to-thyroid-disease.htm

[cliffordu]

107. Will the thyroid based 'bipolar disorder' respond to anti-siezure meds??

And if not, why not???

The regular generic, crazy as a shithouse rat variety of bipolar disorder does.

Are there any other symptoms, like appetite changes, weight gain or loss, blood sugar issues, metabolic disorder symptoms, rashes or neuralgia??

None of those symptoms occur with any regularity in the crazy person type bipolar disorder -

But I guess since the thyroid is your hammer everything has to look like a nail.

[Liberation Angel]

109. ANYBODY will respond to antiseizure meds

That doesn't mean it is effective to HEAL the underlying problem, especially if it is thyroid disorder, nor is it a particularly safe treatment it seems:.

read this:


"Anti-Seizure Drug Depakote Needs More Study, FDA Staffers Say

Depakote, the Abbott Laboratories anti-seizure drug approved for treatment of epilepsy and bipolar mania, should be studied further to determine the risks of delayed development and birth defects in children whose mothers took the medication during pregnancy, Food and Drug Administration staff members said.


“Further study is needed to further elucidate causality and degree of risk of fetal exposure to (Depakote) and subsequent developmental delay in children,” said an FDA staff memo dated May 6 and released today. Depakote’s packaging already carries a prominent “black box” warning about the risks of birth defects and the drug has recently been associated with children who have lower IQs.

The FDA also has warned about the risk of suicidal thoughts and behaviors in people taking nearly two dozen anti-seizure drugs, including Depakote. The agency ordered makers of the drug to strengthen side-effect warnings on the products’ labeling"

.http://www.attorneyatlaw.com/2009/06/anti-seizure-drug-depakote-needs-more-study-fda-staffers-say/


Antiseizure medicines treat the electric sugnals in the brain. Electorshock is also a treatment that is promoted by some doctors for the sme reason.

Do ou NOT think that HEALING the underlying condition is not the best alternative? If that is possible to do shouldn't people investigate and seek treatment?

At least to TRY to actually STOP the problem causing the cycles of depression and wacked-outness?

All it takes is for people to get informed and find a practitioner who understands the correlation between thyroid problems and these conditions AND who understands that standard thyroid blood tests are INSUFFICIENT to assess the problem.

It is your choice whether to heal or rely on drugs that will not heal but only suppress the symptoms with sometimes serious or even fatal side effects.

I am saying this as gently as I can.

You may not hear this but someone else might and might get the real and proper treatment which will free them from suffering.

I am not saying it will work for anyone in particular. i am saying EVERYONE dealing with this should at least BE AWARE of this as an issue

and get what info and help they can.

There is plenty of support for my opinion on this thread

so i know neither one of us is alone.

The illness sucks.

Healing happens!

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[triguy46]

111. My time on SSRI's was very, very helpful, brought me back from a very dark place.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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[Warpy]

117. Stopping those drugs suddenly is what makes people

violently wacky, and people on psych drugs always try to stop them when they're starting to feel better.

The SSRI drugs are especially dangerous. I tried to stop mine suddenly and realized it wasn't a good idea 48 hours later when I tossed a chair across the room. A coworker stopped hers suddenly and tried to run over her husband.

Patients need to be informed on every single office visit and with every renewal of the scrip that the drugs have to be tapered very slowly.

They can be life savers for people who respond well to them. They can be incredibly dangerous if people decide to stop them cold turkey.