Since Jan 2004, I've never put anyone on ignore until today - now I

[BR_Parkway]

am adding to it. For the first time, even through being blamed for Kerry's loss, all through the longest and most brutal primary battle that we just had, right up until Prop 8 and the incredible letdown that was.

If a woman posted that she found something offensive or sexist about a Cabinet appointment, an invited speaker or member of an advisory board - as a male who's never been in her shoes, I wouldn't dream of just posting about how wrong she was, that she was making too big a deal of it, or even calling her names(especially ones that border on time worn stereotypes). I'd try to be supportive, and ask her to explain if I didn't understand why my sister was bothered.

If a person of color posted that they found something offensive or bigoted about a Cabinet appointment, an invited speaker or member of an advisory board - as a white male who's never been in their shoes, I wouldn't dream of just posting about how wrong they were, that they was making too big a deal of it, or even calling them names (especially ones that border on time worn stereotypes). I'd try to be supportive, and ask them to explain if I didn't understand why my brother or sister was bothered.

If a person with a disability (including obesity) posted that they found something offensive or diminishing about a Cabinet appointment, an invited speaker or member of an advisory board - as a healthy, decently fit male who's never been in their shoes, I wouldn't dream of just posting about how wrong they were, that they was making too big a deal of it, or even calling them names(especially ones that border on time worn stereotypes). I'd try to be supportive, and ask them to explain if I didn't understand why my sister or brother was bothered.

But today, in some ways, has been as disheartening as the day Prop 8 passed. When posting that you really are offended about the selection of someone to say a prayer at the inauguration - you get told you're overblowing it, that it really doesn't mean anything, that you're being an outrage queen or simply hysterical. And to sit down and shut up, because you're never going to change anyone's mind by speaking out about it.

I know that we have plenty of allies here. That support has been expressed many times over and is thankfully received. But I really have to wonder about some folks who call themselves "progressive". The fact that this continues to happen shows just how much outreach and education we have to do within our own circles, much less the bigger picture.

But after all the times these flareups have happened, and the conversations that follow - I'm really at a loss as to how to reach those who you expect to be on your side of an issue by them being members of a "progressive" discussion board - but who's continued first response is to denigrate your comments instead of even looking at what all has happened to cause those comments in the first place.

[sinkingfeeling]

1. I recommend that all DUers go to change.gov and post a comment to the transition team. Tell them,

respectfully, that Rev. Warren is a bad choice and an insult to all who worked to get Obama elected.

[yardwork]

15. I did.

[Libertyfirst]

22. And I did. n/t

[LaurenG]

26. and I did too nt

[rhett o rick]

28. I have sent four messages so far. nm

[Genevieve]

2. You're not alone.

Thanks for posting this.

[Mari333]

3. kicked and rec

beautifully said.

[beam me up scottie]

4. K&R'd by this atheist.

I am with you, unbelievers know how it feels to be thrown under the (increasingly non-secular) bus.

We're all whiners, you know.

[blm]

5. I'm with you - Obama's transition advisors are being too cute at the expense of morality

and justice.

[TheWraith]

6. If someone is wrong, I tell them they're wrong, no matter what the issue is.

And frankly, the usual retort from certain people here--not just to me but to anybody who stands in the way of DU's trend towards outrage-junkiehood--is that the person encouraging calm and rationality "doesn't get it" or is part of the massive worldwide conspiracy of bias. That's BS. Telling someone that their opinion doesn't count simply because they're not "one of the clique" runs contrary to the whole idea of free debate.

Sometimes the best person to understand something is NOT the one who's in the middle of it, it's the outsider, who doesn't have to fight their own subjectivity in order to see all the pieces. In this case, I can tell you that you're reading a whole lot of things into the world in general and DU in particular that simply aren't there.

Barack Obama is the President of the United States. Not the President of People Who Agree With Us. If you're going to take offense because he interacts with people who you don't approve of, you're going to take a lot of offense over the next 8 years. Unless of course you'd simply prefer he be a leftist version of Bush, avoiding even the mention that there are people who disagree, not trying to change anybody's mind, and alienating everyone who's not a hardcore DUer.

It would be no more appropriate for Obama to avoid interacting with the right than it would be to avoid dealing with Iran, or any kind of discussion with people we don't like. That's the long and short of it. Now it's a free country, and you're welcome to beat your chest and scream at the injustice of the world over the fact that Barack Obama's going to be seen publicly with somebody who has religion. But then you're not engaging in principled protest, or "keeping them honest," or anything like that. You're choosing to be outraged over something that has no real substance. Why, only you can answer, but from over here it looks like simple immaturity.

[BR_Parkway]

8. Interacting is not the same as giving them a place at your biggest

celebration of change, esp when it's a direct slap in the face to the millions of GLBT voters who busted our asses to get out and work for them

So, since we're calling wrong things - wrong - you're wrong. Telling me my opinion doesn't count does run contrary to the whole idea of free debate.

But obviously, you are all knowing, and me and the HRC, every other gay rights group or blog who's posting about this are just too immature.

Since you can't read and comprehend the questions I asked, but would rather - for the 2nd time today just insult me and call me names - I see no need to continue this.

[jberryhill]

19. Ignore, Ostracize, and Hate Everyone Who Is Wrong

Because that will certainly convince them of the error of their ways.

A majority of voters in California got it wrong - got it way wrong. Their minds need to change. Let's all scream "fuck you" at them until they change their minds.

[Creideiki]

21. How about

if I just ignore, ostracize, and hate you?

Instead, I'll socialize with human beings. Thank you for letting us know you are resigning your membership in the human race.

[jberryhill]

23. Hate whomever you want

You don't need my permission.

[tomp]

27. have you ever tried talking reasonably to the right?

you wouldn't guess it by your post.

i know at least one very otherwise reasonable republican, who has certain subjects that cannot be discussed reasonably. his mind is made up. there will be no changing it.

in fact, there are quite a few issues on which i am not willing to change my mind. these are subjects about which people have attempted to convince me for years and have been unsuccessful. i'm sure they think i'm quite unreasonable. i don't think so but they do. if you're honest, i'm sure you will admit you have at least one issue like this, too.

there is a point at which one must realize people are extremely resistant to change. pretending that people will change will not get them to change. basing governance on such change is stupid at best, disingenuous at worst.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

12. There's a big difference between NOT GETTING IT and COMPLETELY GETTING IT.

Frankly the idea that our political enemies "don't get it" is liberal hoo-ha. Corporations also claim not to "get" unionization. There are some who are legitimately uninformed. But anyone who has been on DU since the passage of Prop 8 has ZERO right to claim that they are uninformed. They are legitimate political opposition, not gentle-but-misinformed souls.

[bettyellen]

13. oh please siser, it's much more than someone who "has religion" and you fucking know it.

what belittling bullshit. no matter how you try and package it, it;s the same old ignorant "get over it" bs, nit a shred more thought to it.
lovely. choosing to be outraged. LOL, you're a real pip.

[Maven]

14. Fantastic. An expert on wrongness has arrived!

Thanks for the insight.

Now please leave.

[yardwork]

16. You're not welcome here. This is the GLBTQ forum. Take a hike.

[vssmith]

7. I am disappointed in the way a few persons respond to others on this board

[LostinVA]

11. It's not a few people -- it's the same people over and over again

And, they are allowed to keep doing it.

[ronnykmarshall]

10. K&R

You nailed it.

[Irishonly]

17. If it helps, I wrote

and expressed my sorrow he would invite Warren to give the invocation. I also suggested there were many wonderful gay ministers and they should have a place at the inauguration. I also wrote that it was a terrible slap in the face to a group of people and their supporters that worked hard to get him elected. This one just flat out depresses me.

[bertman]

18. This Warren b.s. is not something I like at all, but President-elect Obama is the

President of ALL the people, so I figure we should let him pick whomever he wants to say the prayer--which I disapprove of in the first place, but I'm in that minority.

There's a lot of hypersensitivity going around these days. About almost anything that gores someones ox. In this thread it's Obama's slighting of gays and lesbians. This is an example of people seeing what they want to see. I'll bet that most straight Americans do not see this selection as related in any way to gay Americans' rights. They see it as Obama doing what he said he is going to do--reach out to those who hold views different from his own.

For those of us DU'ers who are so emotionally consumed by the Prop 8 fiasco every act or statement becomes freighted with allusions to gay and lesbian issues when, in fact, they are not. I think this is one instance of that.

Just for the record, I support gay rights and the right of all Americans to marry whomever they desire. And I think Rick Warren is a poor excuse for a Christian.

[bluedawg12]

20. You "support gay rights" and our "hypersensitivity"

that's very funny. I think you are the one not seeing that PropHate8 is but the tip of the iceberg, other States, other initiatives, so many issues to fight for. Do you really think it's only Prop8 that Warren railes against? As IF that weren't enough.

[BR_Parkway]

25. Yes, because Prop 8 is the only time we've ever been treated as

unequals The past 40+ years of my life have been exceedingly without any problems because I'm gay. I've never been fired from a job because of it. Or thrown out of the military. Or had my face bashed in by a couple of other guys. Oh no, its all because I'm emotionally consumed by Prop 8. :sarcasm:

He's also the President of all the racial bigots in the US - but they seem to be severely under-represented on that national platform. Hell, if he's going to reach out to everyone, why leave them out?

[pecwae]

24. K&R yet again.

This post needs to be read outside this forum. Obviously, even within a so called progressive community, there are certain groups who are still expected to just cast their vote then fade away into the background. And be content with business as usual.