I came out of DU retirment...for THIS?

[mondo joe]

I left some months ago because GD: P had gotten so fucking ugly I almost didn't want to vote for anyone.

It was a smart thing to do. I started to feel good about the election, and about our candidate.

Like most here, the election was very bittersweet for me, because of the grievous loss and the amazing win. It was hard to be among so many rejoicing people, at the same time carrying this deep hurt. The way in which Prop 8's loss just didn't occur to my co-workers and friends was understandable, but it intensified the feeling of loss.

I thought DU might be the place where there'd be a strong enough sense of social justice for all that I'd feel affirmed.

Instead what I found was that any discussion about the how and why turned into accusations of racism, statements that we - the people whose rights were lost - were to blame, sophistry about dismantling marriage from people who never did and never will do shit about it, and popcorn-time posts from people who think discussion about the loss of civil rights is entertainment.

There have been other threads that have been great, and I'm glad for them. I don't think for a moment that DU is a homophobic place as a whole. But I do think equality for gays is a pretty low priority here. And I further think sensitivity to our civil rights will always take a far-back seat to sensitivity about race. I wish equal rights for all could be equally weighed for all, bt I really don't see it happening.

I'm just going to also say that it's ridiculous to blame African Americans for our loss on Prop 8. We know that even if every African American who voted in California opposed Prop 8 it would have passed. But the 70% data is disturbing, in and of itself. Even if Prop 8 had been successfully blocked, the 70% would be disturbing. And though I know some don't consider the exit polling reliable, it's not the first set of data that indicates that in the African American population/community there is opposition to equal rights for gays that is statistically higher than the general population.

Let's be clear: that's not typically enough to swing the vote. But as a moral and cultural issue, it is problematic. I wish we could discuss that without judgment, and without conflating it into blame for Prop 8. We certainly discuss voting demographics pretty rationally in other ways - like when we consider gender of voters.

There are problems in the gay electorate also - a ridiculously high percentage of gays vote Republican. And some of that, I'm sure, involves racism, and much self-hate. That demographic ought to be looked at with the same rational eye.

And I don't consider religion to be anything more than an excuse for what happened in California among voters. Religious people are very willing to deviate from their religion when they want to - look at premarital sex, divorce, abortion, etc. Religion doesn't MAKE anyone do anything they don't want to do. It's just an excuse to support the individual's own choices.

Thanks, sincerely, GLBT forum, for keeping up the good fight.

[amdezurik]

1. thanks for the scold

I am sure it was oh so very helpful, like the dozens of others the last few days...

[mondo joe]

5. You're welcome, and I suggest the IGNORE option if you don't like it.

[amdezurik]

6. nope, unlike some cowards

I like to see what people are saying and choose not to hide from unpleasant facts.

[mondo joe]

8. Then stop bitching when presented with those facts.

Or keep bitching, if that's how you make yourself feel better.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. get over yourself. seriously.

[Wetzelbill]

27. When somebody is passionate

about an issue, and they're hurting over it, it's best to let them go unless you have words of comfort. I understand if you don't want to be scolded, but you didn't have to read this or post on this thread. The GLBT people are in pain over the whole Prop 8 situation, they have a right to vent their frustrations. Maybe they aren't exactly right on a certain point or maybe you have a viable disagreement with something said, but right now a little empathy and kind words would go a long way to helping out our friends who are hurting over this.

[zanne]

2. Please don't give up on us.

Sometimes it takes awhile, but eventually, we grow up and stop bickering. I wouldn't want to lose my GLBT brothers and sisters. If you guys leave, then I leave, too.:hug:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

3. Who gave out the 70% figure?

:tinfoilhat: Sure is creating a backlash

[glowing]

10. That was a bit odd? NO! Way to start off dividing the country at the very

time we need everyone to come together. I hope and pray that President Obama gets to pick new members of the Supreme Court, and that they right this wrong. There should NOT be any amendments to any state or federal constitution denying anyone a freedom and a right. This is an issue that will take time to "fix" in the population. Much of it will go away when certain generations die away... AND once equal marriage laws becomes a right, the business generated from more people being wed will drown out the fundies... Seriously, even in economic uncertainty, there are still weddings. After 9/11, it was the only thing people would travel for (that and funerals, but those are not usually expensive, lavish affairs). It seems that when things are uncertain, love is a certainty.. and more people want to get married and feel connected to another person.. it helps ease the worry and fear. I can tell you the entire hospitality industry would love for gay people to be allowed to marry. Green is green, and books being in the black mean people have jobs and people keep jobs. The wedding industry is already big.. anything to bring in more money to that industry is good for everyone.... (I work in hospitality-- believe me, we welcome anyone to stay at our hotel. AND ALL guests are treated with the best service we can offer--- We even have a church that meets on Wed and Sunday in our conference room-- most of the attendees are gay and they have a woman pastor -- my owner/ manager is Hindu -- At the end of the day, money is money.)

It was a wedge issue that they hoped would take some votes away from Obama. Florida was one of those. They already have a law against gay marriage, yet they HAD to have a constitutional amendment.. Now that they have that, the issue can be taken up in the courts. I would start in FL since its law and now part of the constitution. Let it continue from the State supreme court to the US Supreme Court. Make it the law of the land. Make it end there forever.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

21. "Way to start off dividing the country at the very time we need everyone to come together"

Exactement...

[ContinentalOp]

15. CNN's exit poll. You doubt the numbers? -nt-

[eowyn_of_rohan]

20. Got any good reason why I shouldn't?

[amdezurik]

24. got anything to counter them with?

or are you just shouting that you don't like them so they must be wrong?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

30. Just don't necessarily trust the sources that bring us election results

poll results, and statistics like this. Also, how would CNN or anybody find out what the racial breakdown is for voting? I thought we voted anonymously.

[mondo joe]

29. I'm afraid so.

Feb 2004: "One potential Democratic loss could come from black voters, 58% of whom say they would not consider voting for a candidate who doesn’t share their views on the issue of gay marriage.

Nearly all of those black voters who would not consider such a candidate are opposed to legalizing gay marriage. However, as of now, black voters would overwhelmingly vote Democratic in November. Three-quarters disapprove of Mr. Bush's job performance as president, and 82% now say they would vote Democratic in the November presidential election."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/24/national/main601828.shtml



July 2008: "According to research conducted by the National Black Justice Coalition and several other organizations, as many as two-thirds of black Americans are against gay marriage. Although the numbers vary by poll, research shows most blacks oppose both gay marriage and civil unions.

The findings come as some surveys show a majority of whites have dropped their objections to same-sex unions. A poll by Pew Research Center in May showed that fewer than 50 percent of whites object to gay marriage."

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/7-11/news/national/12917.cfm?page=1

[DURHAM D]

4. 75% of AAs believe that being gay is a choice -

thus it is not a civil rights issue.

I think you should take heart in the fact that apparently 5%of California AAs have seen the light.

[jonnyblitz]

7. yeah, i started out blaming religion but i am beginning to see

that blaming JUST religion is an excuse to NOT confront the other aspects driving the bigotry. the OTHER aspects are hard to discuss on here because people mispresent what you are trying to discuss with the racism accusations and the like.

[MuseRider]

11. I agree.

When you talk about race and religion it makes people understandably angry and defensive. Being AA is not the problem. Religion is not the problem always. The basic thing about this is, it is heterosexuals who vote against you. That is the first point and something that does not really cause nearly as much defensiveness as when you go after religious groups or racial groups. Then again, this could be just me because I am so blindingly angry at heterosexuals who are too cowardly to even discuss these issues. Blindingly angry. They will not work for equality for GLBT because they can't differentiate themselves from GLBT and they for some reason (bigotry they do not understand) can't deal with that. There is no excuse for this, none. So for me I choose just to work at it from that standpoint. We all know it is almost impossible to get through to people when religion is their excuse and mentioning AA citizens causes an understandable knee jerk reaction of bigotry and in many cases they are probably right. I believe that they have every right to be sensitive to that. The statistics group them together but the people who voted for H8 are heterosexuals of every race and religion. I think from my experience that it is more helpful to work this way. :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

12. great incite as always!!

:hug: :hi:

[ContinentalOp]

13. That is simply untrue...

"We know that even if every African American who voted in California opposed Prop 8 it would have passed."

That's absolutely untrue.

According to CNN's exit poll, African Americans were 10% of the turnout. Total CA turnout was 10,246,379, so there were about 1 million black voters. Let's ignore the 5% of them who voted for McCain, so that leaves 950,000 Democratic black voters.

If 70% of them voted "yes" on 8, that's 665,000 "yes" votes from African American Democrats. 8 passed by a 492,830 vote margin. If you flipped 665,000 votes from the "yes" column to the "no" column, 8 would have failed by 172,835 votes.

Come to think of it, my math with the 5% of black McCain voters is obviously off but it shouldn't really matter.

[ContinentalOp]

16. It makes more sense to do it this way.

1 million black voters
700,000 black "yes on 8" voters
then subtract the 50,000 black McCain voters (assuming they all supported 8)
that leaves 650,000 black Democrats for prop 8. Which is still enough to have flipped the vote the other way if they had all been against prop 8.

[ContinentalOp]

17. And here are the numbers for white Democrats.

10,246,379 total voters
6,455,218 white voters (63%)
3,356,713 of them voted for Obama
2,969,400 of them voted for McCain
3,163,057 white voters voted "yes" on 8.
subtract the 2,969,400 Republicans and that leaves 193,657 white Democrats who voted yes on 8.

vs. the 650,000 black Democrats who voted "yes" on 8.

[QC]

18. Shhhh!!! You're not supposed to talk about that!!! n/t

[Wetzelbill]

14. I haven't said much because I don't really know what to say

It's such a relief and will be so much better in so many ways now that we'll have a Dem president with even bigger majorities in each House, but to stand back and assess the Prop 8 situation is painful. I don't even know how to explain my own relief, and even celebration, with the gains in this election then reconcile it with the hurt that the GLBT community is feeling.

I'm from a reservation in MT and no president or president elect has ever noticed or showed much interest in us in my lifetime. Usually only the bigger richer tribes get noticed if at all, but Barack visited MT this year. He's mentioned tribal rights in his platform. He went out of his way to put tribal jurisdiction in the Dem platform. I'm from one of the poorest places in the country, we're always in a perpetual depression, and now it seems like somebody gets us. Somebody understands. I remember all my life I have heard candidates talk, they'd mention the Black community or the rise of the Hispanic community's influence. I remember hearing Hillary talking about minorities once and she mentioned Indian-Americans, I was happy until it was evident she meant Indian as in "India" not indigenous First Americans. Often I've felt a sting of humiliation at being left out like that. Everybody loves Indians. They romanticize us, they love aspects of our culture. But not enough to recognize us, protect us and guarantee our rights. We have treaty obligations that get pissed on. Our rights have been stolen and still are. I'm saying all of this because I know what it's like to an extent. To watch others celebrate when you are hurting. To see your rights trampled on, while nobody seems to care. To be the cause that everyone professes to support, but nobody seems to back up when it matters.

But I understand. I don't know what to say to make you feel better. I just want all my GLBT friends know that I grieve with you all too. I might be happy about certain things that have happened in this election. I think we've taken as step in the right direction. However, I am sad and pensive about other things too, like Prop 8. It makes me realize that we have a long long way to go too.

[Jamastiene]

23. Thank you.

:hug:

[Wetzelbill]

25. you bet

And you're welcome. :hug:

[peacetalksforall]

19. There are a couple of things that have to get worked on before the next vote

whether it's in CA or someplace else. Terminology<>practical law and bravery and all the variations of State law.

I might be an example - If this was on the ballot in my State, I would vote to allow whatever the GBLT Community asked for because I don't need to know details, I would be on the side of rights for the Community. I'm not borderline in my position. Some people are and it is very confusing for me follow the legalities. Civil Union, Civil Marriage, Civic Hall licenses, legal and monetary obligations, laws on the books. It all circles around in my head. If I learn a tidbit about legal matters in Massachussetts it doesn't seem to transfer to California or any other State. You would think that it doesn't make any difference what one State does vs another, but there is a certain nationwide body of knowledge or lack of knowledge about the issues. We can't keep up with all the State efforts. Something is said and it's immediately followed by exceptions. It requires dedication to follow it all.

I'm skimming everything about California now because I didn't get grounded in any knowledge of the efforts before this.

I think some churches and their parishioners are really screwed up and a lot of clarity about what and where the Community wants to get needs to be more clear to them. (I can feel the replies being written before I even click Post). Legalities will reach across for some people who are borderline - if they can understand the issues.

As to bravery - there are plenty of celebrities who have spoken out in support - there needs to be more leaders and it would be great if the number included political leaders, especially our own.

If I'm typical of a certain per cent, there is plenty of ignorance. I admit mine. There is even an ignorance on a Forum like DU when it appears to be a State issue. There are so many paths to follow in a limited time - there is no time for a State that I don't live in. Perhaps the limited participation allows naysayers and trouble makers to step in.

Perhaps I'm totally wrong and this is about sheer madness and big money to pay for anti-campaigns.

I admit ignorance, so I hope I'm not yelled at.

Edited to add, I may not be clear - I think there is hope in the law if enough people understand what is being asked for and can be asked to separate their own approvals or not.

[yardwork]

22. This is a good post.

I'm going into retirement from DU for a little while, and I'm glad to read this post because yesterday was very upsetting. In fact I totally melted down and that triggered a decision to take some time away from here to regain a sense of calm and perspective.

Reflecting on the past week, I see a clear pattern in the unfolding of events. It's clear that the religious right is responsible for dreaming up the idea of targeting gay people, for funding the promotion of that idea, and for encouraging it among their members in the guise of a religious crusade. This is nothing new. It just hurts real bad right now because while we're all celebrating the taking back of the White House and the increased Democratic majority in Congress we also see that our rights aren't considered to be as valuable as everyone else's.

That 70% figure is based on an exit poll with an extremely small sample size - so small that there was no valid reportable data on male African Americans. While it does seem to reflect other polls indicating that many African Americans have discomfort with the idea of gay rights, it doesn't tell us much about who feels this way and why. African Americans are no more a monolithic single community than gay people are, so it's pointless to complain about "the African American community." It's a broad brush, a blunt instrument. And anyway everyone's feelings are too raw to talk about the issue of race and sexuality right now.

We should be asking ourselves who released that poll and who is making such a big deal out of it.

Furthermore, what about the other three states? Who voted in Florida, Arizona, and Arkansas to institutionalize violations of human rights?

And who are the posters right here on DU who began stirring up trouble over the past couple days? Some known offenders and some newbies. Something to keep in mind. And who are the people hollering racist and homophobic things in crowds and rallies? Agents provocateurs, I have no doubt.

The final straw for me, though, was the backbiting in online gay communities. We all know that there are issues of gender, stereotyping, etc., but it was horrible to see. That's something else that we need to work on later when feelings aren't so raw.

The Republicans and corporatists are loving this fight among us right now.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

28. "But I do think equality for gays is a pretty low priority here" EXACTLY.

I love everything about your post.