Don't hate the Mormon's or the Black Community for Prop 8.

[Meldread]

I posted yesterday that I wasn't disheartened or even angry about what happened. In fact, I was actually happy that we got so close to winning. That is not something I even thought would be possible just four years ago.

However, after having another day to dwell on it, and listening to various opinions on the issue there seems to be a vast amount of anger at the Mormon and Black Communities. I may be a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I am going to speak from personal experience. It does not do us any good to hate or even get angry.

For a very long time I was filled with loathing (hatred is too mild of a word) for the Religious Right. It is the events that took place in my life during that period of time that has shaped my ideological world view. Sometime during the last several years, gradually, I came to the realization that hatred did not serve me nor the cause I was fighting for well. I drew upon it for passion, and it was like drawing water from a poisoned well. With each drink it only harmed me. It may seem silly, but for some reason I had convinced myself that by hating them I was somehow empowered.

It was not true. Hatred blinded me in such a way that I could not see that I was giving my opponents power. I allowed them to control my emotions. In doing that it stripped my ability to think objectively. It caused me to burn bridges that I might have otherwise built.

The reality is that we have friends in the Black Community and in the Mormon Community. When we launch a broad based attack, we shoot ourselves in the foot. When we call Mormon's evil and a cult or slam black folks in general we not only are guilty in a hateful assault, which makes us little better than those we oppose, but we also push away our allies in those communities.

What we need to take away from Proposition 8 is not hatred or even anger. Those emotions are pretty irrelevant and will not help solve the problem facing us. We need to understand that we have woefully fallen short in getting out our message to those communities, the black community in particular.

Bigotry does not know skin color, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity. It is something we are lured into by our lesser selves. I am convinced that if we want to have any hope at victory we are going to have to build a massive coalition. We are going to have to have massive outreach programs.

Fundamentally speaking, I am not interested in just marriage. I want my life and my relationships as a gay male to be equal to heterosexual relationships, to be viewed just as valid and good and to be celebrated equally. This is the goal, and only when a child can be born into this world, get a boyfriend or a girlfriend and not feel as if he or she is doing something wrong, and have the support of his community and family will we have been successful.

I know I will forever bare the scars of discrimination, some of which I have inflicted upon myself. It is my hope that someday, and I know it will not be in my lifetime, that a distant generation will grow up and be able to not even think about gay or straight, making them irrelevant concepts that existed a long time ago in the past.

Legal recognition of our relationships is the first step, but we cannot change minds alone. We have to be able to look into communities who, at this time, may not consider us friends and separate them into the categories of foes and potential allies. Then we need to reach out to them and grow our support. We do not need to engage in hatred or bitter finger pointing. It does nothing to move us forward, and serves only to distract and undermine our goals.

I would like to have a constructive conversation on what we can do to move forward.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. Want to know why we've had almost 3 decades of GOP control? The religious right. nt

[Meldread]

9. I am fully aware of the power of the religious right.

That is why we need a coalition. We are minorities, who are having our rights constantly thrown into the lap of public opinion. Only by building a coalition and changing minds, will we have a majority.

When we engage in what I can only describe as tribal politics we shoot each other in the face. When LGBT rights are stripped away, that opens up the door for rights to be stripped away for Black American's. In the same election as Proposition 8 both Colorado and Nebraska were voting to get rid of Affirmative-action. It passed in Nebraska and it is still too close to call in Colorado. This means that a state that Obama won, Colorado, literally had people voting for the first black President and then simultaneously voting to get rid of Affirmative-action.

Only when we realize that we are all in the same boat and sink or swim together will we be able to move forward. That when one minorities rights are challenged, other minorities must stand up to defend them because if they do not it opens the door for their own disenfranchisement.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. I'm straight but for gay rights, and for the right of a woman to do with her uterus as she wishes...

I think we need to start chipping away at the hypocrisy of the American Christian churches. If we don't, we'll end up where we have been for 3 decades or worse. The American Christian churches are to blame for so many wrongs.

[Meldread]

17. I am a secularist.

So I understand where you are coming from, however I think we fundamentally need to look at our goals and evaluate our strategy to get us there. We want to dismantle the Religious Right, breaking their power and stranglehold over American Christianity. Rather than attacking the faith of Christianity, as some do and I have done in the past, would it not be more productive to seek out those who are Christian, but who share our world view and empower them? The only way to chip at their power, and make it last forever, is to fundamentally change the faith and that can only be done by working to undermine their power and authority within the religious community, while at the same time working to increase the power and authority of those that share our goals and values.

I am not saying we should hold hands and pretend all is good and well in the world. Make no mistake, we are at war with a certain group of people culturally. Only one side will win. There really is very little middle ground to compromise. There are three types of people when it comes to LGBT issues: our friends, those that can be persuaded and our opponents.

What I am trying to say here is that we need to conduct ourselves in a way that does not alienate our friends, and make plans to persuade and bring over those that can be persuaded. If we do not build a coalition we will never win.

[AntiFascist]

49. I agree with your post, and some of us also have to learn tolerance...

I've faced heterosexual bigotry all of my life and I know that people can turn around 180 degrees. Sometimes it may take years to see this transformation in people.

How can we expect others to tolerate us if we don't tolerate them? If we try to break down the churches and impose our beliefs upon them, then we are not much better, even if we know that we are on the side of truth and they are not.

The black community has broken down barriers by demonstrating that they can rise above the anger and exceed people's expectations. We can do the same.

Having said that, I also support peaceful demonstrations and protests. This shows the courts and the public that we mean business.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. I think we need to do this the same way we got rid of Republicans....

Each of us uses his own way.

You use yours.

I use mine.

We chip away at American-style Christianity, which is the problem here.

I like to point out that they're hypocrites. If that's not the way you like to do it, by all means use your way.

[merwin]

10. And it seems you missed the entire point of the post.

Congrats!

[amdezurik]

2. it is their LDS leadership to blame

but then again, have they no say in that at all? In any case as a practical matter that leadership has damaged any claim they could make to tax-exempt status and should have a long hard look taken into that IMHO.

[xchrom]

3. pointing out he realities of who voted and how isn't 'hatin'

and i resent the implications.

[Tektonik]

7. agreed

Fuck anyone telling me not to be pissed every time I walk by the local Mormon temple.

[Meldread]

15. I never implied that it was but let me be clear.

I was speaking of using broad brushes and generalizations. I was not even specifically referring to anything that has taken place on Democratic Underground, either. So I do not understand why you resent something that was never implied.

Regardless, I am sure we both can agree that the results proved that we need massive outright in the black community. We also need to find supportive Mormon's who are willing to fight and challenge the leadership of the Church.

[PennyP]

4. ATTN: I sent a letter to Americans united for the seperation of Church and State...

Here's what it says:

As a first time visitor to your website, I was shocked to see no
mention of the Mormon funding of proposition 8 in CA.

The funding of the proposition 8 campaign by the Mormon church and
Catholic organizations, an effort to change the California
constitution to reflect the religious values of one set of Christian
faiths, is a slap in the face of the principles you claim to stand
for. The fact that the proposition passed does not mean it reflects
the will of the people, but only that the massive funding of the
campaign with tax exempt church dollars has literally allowed them to
buy the vote through a massive misinformation and propaganda media
blitz. I find it offensive that you would take no interest and make
no stand on the issue. Could it be that you are willing to turn a
blind eye to the blatant political maneuvering of the religious, if it
is only homosexuals that are suffering? I would never assume such
blatant bigotry on the part of your organization, so I will assume you
are simply behind or out of the loop. Here are a couple discussions
of the issue to bring you up to speed.

http://www.camajorityreport.com/index.php?module=articles&func=display&aid=3774&ptid=9

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/mormons-vs-civi.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone who wants to copy and past that and send it as well, feel free, I think the more folks that put pressure on these guys to get involved the better.

PS... I agree that we shouldn't be haters to individual Mormons or Christians, but we have every right to go after them for violating separation of church and state, that's what has me angriest.

[PennyP]

6. BTW, anyone know who else I could send that to? Any other organizations? nt

[MountainLaurel]

32. Focus on the Family

The American Family Association, and Concerned Women for America all made major donations, as did the owners of Bolthouse Farms (sells carrots, juices, etc.) and Blackwater.

[xchrom]

5. again: what we know -- many many people who voted FOR barack

also voted for anti-gay ammendments.

[Meldread]

19. Here is what we also know:

Many people in Nebraska and Colorado voted to ban affirmative-action also voted for Barack Obama. It passed in Nebraska handily, and I've just read that it just barely failed to pass in Colorado. Yet, Obama won the state of Colorado. This means that people who voted for the first black President, at the same time was voting against affirmative-action.

My point is that when one minorities rights are challenged it opens the door for all minorities to have their rights challenged. We are all on the same boat, and if it sinks we all go down with it.

[bluedawg12]

23. Yeah, but were those Democrats who voted against affirm. act?

We expect it from repugs, not from fellow Dems. That was the killer.

[Meldread]

24. Yes.

It passed overwhelmingly in Nebraska and was just VERY narrowly defeated in Colorado. With the turn out like it was, you can bet that a sizable number of self-identified Democrats voted for it.

[xchrom]

26. i could not disagree more

bigotry against lgbtiq people has an across the racial board bigotry.

why you are seeing something like 'if one goes down - we all down' -- i have no idea.

because it doesn't exist when it comes to lgbtiq.

[Creideiki]

30. The Colorado initiative was very misleading

You almost had to know what it said before reading it to understand it. Otherwise, it spends the majority saying that discrimination on basis of race or gender is illegal in Colorado, and only as a little phrase adds that that includes any attempts to level the playing field. The ads here featured Black "liberals" who supported the measure--well, actors pretending to be Black liberals, anyway.

[NorthernSpy]

34. Yes -- and without those voters, progressives would win very few elections...

Something to consider before deciding which groups to throw overboard.

[tishaLA]

8. This is an important message

I believe that the LGBT community needed to work harder with the African American community and the Latino community to find common cause. We who opposed h8 failed to get the message out through the Latino media, we have not done enough to help create leaders who can work across the race/sexual orientation divide, we were defensive when we should have had the upper hand. I intend to stay angry and to fight every step of the way, but I can't place broad-brush blame.

[smiley_glad_hands]

12. Great post.

I'll help out however i can.

[Duncan Grant]

11. Yes Meldread, it is our own inadequacies that makes them vote against us.

We should have just voted "Yes on 8" from the start because we're such an incompetent community -- completely undeserving of civil rights and self-respect.

Guess I'll go out now and find myself a Mormon and apologize for being me. God knows, they're not responsible for their bigoted and malevolent vote removing my state sanctioned rights -- we are.

[tishaLA]

16. I don't think that's the message

But I do wonder where we were in the Spanish speaking media. I wonder where we are in finding voices in the African American community who can talk across race and sexual orientation. It's not because all the candidates are like Donna Brazile: some are willing to articulate both an African American and a LGBT identity.

[Creideiki]

31. That's exactly the message

I think while we're at it, we should round up every woman who gets pregnant from a rape, and tell her she clearly deserved it, so should have to carry the child. Hey, she can always give it up for adoption to a nice Mormon couple.

What I'm tired of is the blame the victim mentality that's coming around here. It's the twin of the "gays cost us the election" from 2004.

I'm still thinking that we should have enforced exile. Obama could do something he wants that clearly the majority of the country wants, too. And we can go some place that will appreciate us and actually believes that we have value as people. Hell, find me a place like that, and I'd consider teaching again.

[Dogmudgeon]

14. It isn't a matter of hate

But if Progressive politics is ever to take root in the USA, we have to break the death-grip of the radical religious right.

No hatred is necessary; we need simply to get religion out of politics, and encourage "people of faith" to transform their religions from mass brainwashing cults into movements for theological, spiritual, and ethical development.

I have no hate for any religion or religionist, although I do not believe in any religion. My issues are with what religion does. In practice, religion stretches from Tibetan Ram-Lim Dzogchen Buddhism all the way to snake-handling, poison-drinking Fundamentalist mania. Yet Billy Graham came from a tradition that was much closer to the latter than the former, and has eventually become something of a "Zen Baptist" ("Zen" in the way of "peaceful abiding", not Buddhism per se).

Our goal should be clear: to eliminate that pathological, destructive impulse that rides along with spirituality. And the way to begin is to get it out of civil and secular life. That effort may not seem "nice", but it need not be hateful.

--p!

[Meldread]

21. I could not agree more.

That is also my point. I also believe in secularism and self-identify as an agnostic.

In the past, I was really... REALLY... angry and filled with hatred. I regularly made attacks upon Christianity as a faith, even when I knew the person was sympathetic to LGBT issues. I saw the world in black and white, with battle lines drawn down the middle. I was so blinded by my hatred of the Religious Right, so hurt and disillusioned by how they had treated me throughout my entire life, that I pushed sympathetic people away. I disrespected them and their faith, because in them I saw an echo of my true enemy and I could not move past that. In the end I've had relationships severed because of it. I could not tolerate them even as they wanted to reach out to me, and even in some cases where I did accept them I was disrespectful and ungrateful for their support.

That is what hatred and anger did to me. I was so blinded by it that I did not see it at the time. I did not see how it was hurting me. Ironically, I felt empowered by it because I felt like I was fighting back. I was, in a sense, rebelling against "the man." It got nothing accomplished and it burned bridges. I hurt myself and I hurt others who might have been allies.

I learned from those mistakes. I realized that in allowing myself to feel hatred or anger toward any particular person or group only does me a disservice. It is sometimes very hard for me, but I always try and remind myself that in allowing myself to give into those baser emotions I am allowing my enemies to control me. No one, absolutely no one except myself, should have power over my thoughts or feelings. Whenever I surrender to those emotions I only blind myself to objectivity and critical thinking. My mind becomes muddled and colored by a skewed perspective, which often results in me no longer acting in my self interest.

One of the reasons I made this thread was because I wanted to share this experience with others here on DU who might feel themselves slipping in that direction. No one sympathizes with such people more than me. I just do not want people to engage in the same mistakes that I engaged in and later regret them as I do.

More to your point, I believe the LGBT Community MUST reach out to the Religious Left in this country and help them grow stronger. I may not share their faith, but I can share with them a common goal: the defeat of the Religious Right. I know that by empowering and helping them that I not only gain an ally, I ensure the defeat of the enemy forever. This is a cultural war and the only way to win is by changing the culture.

Taking a big dump on the Mormon Religion undermines our goals, for example, because we also take a swipe at those Mormon's that support us. We should be working to empower them and help them build a coalition within the Mormon Community that can work toward overthrowing the Mormon leadership. It brings to us far more productive results.

[Beregond2]

18. Good luck on that constructive conversation.

I agree with you completely. We should certainly have learned from the Obama campaign that responding to negativity with positivity yields great dividends. But there is so much anger in the LGBT community, I'm not sure how receptive gay people are going to be to that approach. Personally, I think that a legal victory that shoves gay marriage down an unwilling public's throat will be a Pyhrric victory at best. Yes, we must win our legal rights. But if we don't win over the hearts and minds of most people, we will remain a people apart, ghettoized by attitudes if not by laws.

[Meldread]

22. Exactly my thoughts.

As I said in my original post, legal recognition of our rights is just the first step. I don't want just that - I want more. I want my relationship to be accepted by my family, by my community, and I want to live my life just as heterosexuals live their lives with no distinction drawn between them. Even if we win in the courts it will not change public opinion. This is a cultural war. We have to change the culture by changing minds.

[jonnyblitz]

20. I will call out bigots no matter what their race or religion.

and I WON'T blame the victim.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

52. Me too.

[WVRICK13]

25. I HATE MORMONS

for their smug self-righteous attitudes and cult bullshit. They think they can control the entire country with cash and so far they are not too wrong. My question is how any group based on the lies of a convicted con artist can get such a large following. Mormons are brainwashed cultist and are by no means innocent in the scope of their hatred and bigotry. Do not make excuses for their narrow minded views and desire to control others. That is like making excuse for the spouse who abuses you.

The first step is to once and for all separate church and state.

[mitchtv]

35. I HATE MORMONS more

they are a despicable group of lying cultists who deserve the inner circle of hell when they die (hopefully soon) MY most evil curse on their collective soul

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. are you joking? the mormon church donated 1,000,000 to spite our lives

the mormon church is part of the reason african americans voted like they did.

without some hatred, there is no action. our community is suffering from apathy. i think some amount of hatred for those who take away our rights is warranted and necessary to fuel us.

[NorthernSpy]

33. The Knights of Columbus donated $1 mil. The LDS donated $20-$40 million.

The Vote Yes side was practically swimming in dough.



(edit: Knights of Columbus, that is. There is more than one knight.)

[Ellen Forradalom]

38. Imagine if LDS found $20MM to take out the child-rapist FLDS

But no. Can't do that.

[Cherchez la Femme]

37. I can't come up with the link

as I neglected to save it, but I read recently that the LDS church/Utah financed Prop H8 to the tune of a minimum of Twenty-Five Million

[sui generis]

28. no, you don't need to convince the bankers you have a right

to the money in your own deposit account.

They are stealing our lives, and demanding we learn about them so we can teach them about ourselves.

I don't hate them, if "them" isn't generalizing ad absurdia. I utterly despise "them", the people who hate gays.

But the second it becomes hate with me is when they actively try to legislate my life. I don't hate them because they are "mormon" or "black" or "your label goes here".

I hate them because they are ugly anti-American humans who think they have a right to take away my American rights. And they won't stop trying, you know that.

Could we ask families of the lynched to try to get those mobs dressed up in their sunday clothes to "understand them?" No. To this day there are people who would lynch blacks and gays and wicca in a heartbeat, and it's NOT OUR FAULT for not educating them. They are defective humans.

[xchrom]

45. what so few liberals seem to be willing to understand is that

hating gays has become an entrenched pasttime -- crossing religious, political, and racial boundaries.

from asians to zambians -- from ana-baptists to zen buddhists -- they will all ignore their mutual hate and dislike of each other to deny us what they enjoy.

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. Can we hate the millions who supported Prop 8 with money, time and votes? n/t

[Cherchez la Femme]

36. I place FULL RESPONSIBILITY

on the Mormons. The vast majority live in another state and financed a hate proposition and all it's companion propaganda in another state! WHY should I not blame them?

There should be a law against trafficking hate across state lines!


Glad you now like it, but myself, I'm THROUGH with being a doormat.

[Ellen Forradalom]

39. Yes, they need to clean up their own damned pigsty

There's the Fundamentalist LDS in Hilldale/Colorado City who routinely "marry" 14 year old girls to men old enough to be their grandfathers and force them to bear multiple children starting in their teens, and who "excommunicate" teenage boys and eject them from town so they don't compete with the old lechers for brides.

I think $20 million could buy a lot of political will to shut down those practices. But no, it's better spent telling residents of another state which consenting adults may or may not marry.

[bluedawg12]

40. For a group that was persecuted for it's own marriage practices

of polygamy it sure is an odd dogma - guess crap flows downhill. It's easy to kick the ones below you, in numbers and money?

[Ellen Forradalom]

41. How quickly they forget

:grr:

[bluedawg12]

42. They've been meddling in politics from the start it was anti ERA in 70's

Here's a GLBT site with some interesting comments:

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/09/mormon_church_pumping_money_into_califor.php

>>When I was growing up in the Mormon Church, I was always told that the Church would never get involved in politics, and that a person's political views were between them and God. That, of course, was a big fat lie. The Mormon Church has always had it's hand in politics. And whether we're talking about individual members pumping money into bigoted hate campaigns, or the Church itself funneling money from its huge coffers to these campaigns, that's a lot of cheddar. I stopped paying tithing to the Mormon Church back in 1998 after Matthew Sheppard was killed.<<

Magyar vagy?

[Ellen Forradalom]

43. nem vagyok magyar

de tanultam a nyelvet.

[bluedawg12]

48. Nagyon sep! Servus. :) n/t

[Cherchez la Femme]

46. I was interested in the LDS church once

in the early 80's, a time when I was socially aware (environment, equal rights, etc.) but not following politics at all.

I had visited the Joseph Smith House in Palmyra, NY and the 'glade' where he supposedly had the visitation of the Angel Moroni (telling name?) and, to me at that time, it DID feel 'holy'. To this day I don't understand why I felt that ...perhaps I picked up on the reverence of the elders, I don't know. In any event, I signed up to receive visits and, perhaps then, instruction in the Mormon Faith.

There were two things that bothered me greatly about the organized religion, however. One was the separation of the men and women in worship, and that only men could be 'preachers' (it's been so long I forget the name of their 'priests' or 'reverends'). The other was their fight against the Equal Rights Amendment (luckily for me, it was the ERA era) which I was most definitely was for. What self-respecting woman wouldn't be for equal rights?

Both male and female missionaries (the men were called Elders but I don't think the women were) had the nerve to tell me that 'the reason the church was against the ERA was because it would mean that men and women would have to use the same bathrooms'!

What kind of simplistic idiot --moron, I-- did they think they were talking to, that I would find that kind of answer in the least bit credible? They used that excuse, with a straight face no less, to deny equal rights for women!

Seriously, they actually said that and from the sound of it, it was by rote. This must have been the excuse issued from their 'apostles' (or whatever they call their leading group of 12 old, white, conservative men) to give to those interested in joining up.
Or could they ALL possibly be so ignorant as to actually believe that?

Nah, those 'in' the LDS church knew exactly what it was all about -- even the women embrace their role of 2nd class members of society and they convince themselves they LIKE it.

[GreenFiles]

44. ANGER!!!

I won't roll over and take it! Just sit back and shut up if you're not willing to fight!

[readmoreoften]

47. UH, I don't "hate" the black community, including its straight members.

I also don't "hate" the asian, latino, or white communities. I am full of disgust at every person who voted for prop 8.

I do dislike mormons, though, except those who support equality--like my mormon aunt.

[roody]

50. You may very well live to see kids grow up without the

prejudices so many have now. I teach grade school kids about the civil rights movement and they are appalled that segregation existed. And it was in my lifetime. They are amazed.

[ValueALLfamilies]

53. Inspiration from www.valueallfamilies.com

I think it is the frustration coming out and the Mormons and blacks are an easy target. They played a huge part in this. However, a huge part was played by NONfar-right people that either did not vote or voted pro-8. We are reaching more and more straight people every day. We need to keep coming out and showing the world we are not a threat. Gay people are the one minority that can hide. We can pick and choose who sees us as gay. For this reason, the world has a very skewed view about gay people.

As hard as it is we need to keep letting people know we are gay. Not announcing it but just letting it out like it is no big deal. These anti-gay people don't realize how many gay people they know. When people know gay people they rethink these discrimination laws. Yes vent at the ones who purposely engineered this whole proposition: The Utah Mormon church, Hyper Evangelical Christian James Dobson of "Focus on the Family." But don't let it eat you alive. It does give them power. They are nut cakes and giving them fuel to rile up their churches is letting them win. Let's beat them like Obama beat McCain. McCain still got 47% of all votes in this country. But Obama got more.

Let them be evil. All we needed to do is persuade 2% more of California that it is about our rights. Lets film a commercial with the 22,000 couples that are caught in the middle. How about we fill up a football field with the caption "WE MATTER". Not many commercials against prop 8 showed gay people. Just politicians and celebrities. This is a human rights issue and gays need to be seen as human. Public opinion comes our way more and more. Why? because we come out more and more. We will win this war. There are blacks and Mormons out there who are on our side. Let's not make this about them.

Here are some quotes for the pro-8 crowd...

“Whoever, therefore, thinks that he understands the divine Scriptures or any part of them so that it does not build the double love of God and of our neighbor does not understand it at all." (Christian Doctrine 1.35.40)41 Let us be true to the double love of God and neighbor, for that is what we are called to do for the sake of the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Augustine

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality." George Washington, First president of US (1732 - 1799).

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." Thomas Jefferson

"An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens." Thomas Jefferson

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson Founder of United States 3rd President (1743-1826)


Here is a quote for everyone who understands what this country stands for...

"I fear not, I see not reason for fear. In the end we will be the victors. For though at times the flame of liberty may cease to shine, the ember will never expire."
Thomas Paine US patriot & political philosopher (1737 - 1809)

Chins up people
www.valueALLfamilies.com

[foxfeet]

54. Just for the record, not all LGBT people can "hide."