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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:27 PM
Original message
Gay Myth #1 “Passing.”
Gay Myth #1 “Passing.”

This in the hopes of shedding some light for our straight brothers and sisters, who in the present and future will stand with us in solidarity in our fight for civil rights and human dignity.

Some say that our fight for civil rights and for affirmation of our intrinsic human dignity as gay/GLBT people is nothing like the black civil rights movement. After all, they claim, gays can “pass.”

Is that really true?

It is not and here’s why.

While it’s true that external physical characteristics are visible on sight, the search to identify the “other” between strangers lasts longer than a few seconds.

First, consider that some gay brothers and sisters express who they are in ways that signal their sexual orientation on sight. The way we talk, move, carry ourselves is a part of how we see ourselves and goes back to our earliest days of identity formation.

Next, even if we pass, even if we embody the “norm,” the manly- man and the feminine- woman stereotype, on sight decision making is just the first step in identifying a stranger.

Once conversation ensues, the most basic questions we are asked as adults by strangers trying to form an opinion of us are the things that might bond us. So, naturally and often times on purpose when suspicion is aroused about the newcomer’s orientation, the questions come as follows:

“Oh. Are you married?”

“Does you husband/wife work?”

“Do you have any kids?”

In social settings among strangers these questions flow naturally. However, if the answer does not fit expectation, a puzzled look follows and opinions are formed quickly.
It does draw curiosity when a man or a woman is not married after a certain age. The stranger’s mind beings to calculate the options that may explain why a 40 year old male/female has no children and is single. One of the options that come to mind quickly is, “They’re gay, by gosh.” (LOL)

The worst ramification socially may be that the person sees you as gay, is bigoted and moves on.

However, life is not all about social pleasantries and life is not at all frivolous.

When those same questions come up during an interview with an insurance agent from whom we seek to buy health insurance, they are taking our measure and calculating their “risk.” One may never know why they were denied health or life insurance.

Earning a gainful living is a matter of survival and dignity. In the course of a job interview, those types of questions, often brought up casually, may play into decision making about hiring someone. It impacts our livelihood, our daily bread and butter.

If you are single and over a certain age that is a “red flag” for some employers.

If you happen to mention a “room mate,” “house mate,” “partner” “best friend,” etc., that is also red flag for some employers

The potential employer or some personnel (HR) director is weighing your fitness to be part of “their team.”

If they are bigoted you may never be called back, never hired, never promoted and you will never know why. But, you may have a sick, gnawing feeling in your gut, that it was nothing you did or failed to do, but it was because of who you are in the most private, most basic place in your soul, it was because of who you love.

Consider our homes. Where we live is where we are most exposed and most vulnerable. If the neighbors are bigots, if they are homophobic and have prejudice–that is if they pre-judge you- it’s not the social hurt of being snubbed that gays worry about, it’s the reality of possible harassment in your own home, the possibility of hate crimes in the dead of the night to your own body or to that of your loved ones, partner or pets. Is that too severe, too unlikely? Not really. Consider why gays leave small towns in exodus to the relative safety and anonymity of large cities.

Well, how about a simpler example of how being gay can be a source of separation and division from the normal social safety nets.

Where you live you cannot hide, you cannot pass, as neighbors see you and your same sex life partner day after day and have their “suspicions,” that may lead to pre-judgement - to prejudice.

If they are homophobic and ostracize a gay couple, that couple is out of the loop of neighborhood good will, good neighbor relations, out of the loop during a storm, a flood, one can’t call for help from the bigots next door when one is alone and falls off a ladder, injured.

No gays can’t “pass” for more than a few minutes.

Thanks to the right wing’s deliberate hate baiting, gay baiting tactics in their quest for power over the last eight years, many homophobes are on high alert, many have a heightened sense of vigilance for gays. They feel threatened, are frightened, they don’t want gays around their work place or as neighbors or around their kids. These folks actively seek to unveil a person’s sexual orientation with a sense of zealous righteousness. They make a point of asking about marital status, marital history and whether or not you have kids. They are not asking because they want to be friends with a gay person, they are on patrol, they see it as protecting themselves and their family and yes, some see it ,and quite dangerously so, as “ protecting America and our values from gays.”

In Nazi Germany, under the Third Reich, they were aware of Jews “passing.” Of the possibility of not looking Jewish, taking on a Christian faith and changing to a name that would “pass.” So they enacted blood protection laws. Laws that required proof of Aryan blood lines going back generations.

In the South, similar tactics were used to ferret out blacks who appeared white, but were suspect. They used a “blanch” test, pressing on the skin to see if the underlying pigment were Caucasian white, to determine if this was a suntan, or was this a person of mixed blood? I saw the blanche test used just seven years ago in the heart of Dixie.

It’s true that external attributes are apparent on first sight, but that only matters when passing a stranger on the street. The moment we engage in dialogue with a stranger they read us, as we read them, and if they are homophobic they will seek to uncover a person’s sexual orientation and can do so in minutes.

The ramifications of uncovering that identity and how that plays out is a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say that the ongoing struggle for dignity, for civil rights, for fairness under the law is not a trivial undertaking to be dismissed with a cavalier,”Oh well, you can always pass. No one can see you are gay, it’s not like skin color.”

It is not true that gays can pass. The only difference to bigots is how long it takes to get there in time, wether it’s on sight in a matter of seconds or after a few casual questions, a matter of a few minutes.

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JustFiveMoreMinutes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Any black who says that... I counter with
... how many black children are kicked out of their homes or churches for being a shade lighter or darker because of their complexion.

No, being gay is NOTHING like being black.

But then again, being black is NOTHING like being gay.

But what IS THE SAME are the PEOPLE AGAINST both.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Gay Rights = Civil Rights.
No getting around it. As long as you can't be free to live your life, my life is less free too.

I am hopeful that the silver lining to the Prop 8 debacle is that it can be fought out in the courts and hopefully the SCOTUS will hear it eventually and declare it and other laws like it unconstitutional... which it is.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Off to the greatest page with this.
Rec #5 and :kick:
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks for this-- it is something that many should see. This gay man, however,
cannot resist gallows humor with regard to one thing mentioned in your essay.

The blanch test.

Quite clearly, many Gay men cannot pass the Blanche test. (i.e. Blanche Deveraux, or "But you are, Blanche, you are!!!!)

:)

Seriously, though-- thanks for this. I will remember this and use it in conversation with those who use the "Passing" argument.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Malikshah- LOL. That's funny! Thank you. :)
My partner got the Blanche (Dubois is it from Tenn Wm.'s? LOL) Test.

They just poked the skin with out a word, down in Ga. I had to explain, once I figured out what they were doing, "Checking your blood lines my dear." It's seriously ghoulish.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. If anyone is delusional enough to believe that gays can "pass"
then they are simply not aware of how America is actually limited to gays.

I mean, try getting a job and moving to any small town, in other than a few States.

My partner and I look at the map of the US and now know, after having tried, that most of it is off limits to us as a stable, employed, committed gay couple. In the exact same scenario, a straight couple would be welcomed, hired and neighbors would flock to welcome them.

We tried, Ga. Al., Miss. Southern Ohio,it was appalling. We stayed up North and have no regrets, other than, it is clear we are not full citizens of this nation - due to prejudice.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Harry Hay said it best
What gay people and straight people do in bed is the only thing they have in common.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. recommend -- you begin -- in this OP -- to also outline
why the struggle for equal rights for lgbtiq people is not -- except on the surface -- like the struggle
for racial equality.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Very good analysis
It even runs a little deeper. I have a good friend who is a brilliant lawyer. He worked for a large law firm and was their top-billing associate. He came from an Ivy League law school and he won every case that was winnable.

He worked incredible hours. However, when it came time for partner, another guy made partner.

My friend is gay. The other guy is straight and had a girlfriend whom he later married. The other partners would invite the straight associate and his girlfriend to their weekend place or to cruise on their boat and things like that. My friend, who had no partner at the time, was simply ignored. And, of course, it was on those little double-dating junkets that the decision over partner was made.

My friend, although open about being gay, isn't effeminate or even confrontational about it. But, he knew after a while that he just wasn't going to make partner. A lot of it had to do with the bonding that took place in the couple-to-couple outings.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yeah, it's the soft bigotry that kills us
when we play by the rules, study, work hard, are responsible and then sub rosa they limit us, our dreams, our ability to grow and succeed.

There's hard bigotry too, consider hate crimes or Mathew Shepherd. Tragic.

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Tartiflette Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you
This post provided me with a new perspective and insight. I only wish I had accumulated enough posts to recommend. The loss on proposition 8 was the biggest disappointment of election night to me, a straight, non-US citizen, as I had hoped that California, at very least, would continue to lead the US in providing/protecting civil rights for all. The idea of a fair and just society to me is/should be about protecting the minorities from tyranny of the majority, so I find it unreasonable that this issues was even put to majority vote. I hope this will be struck down by legal means, but I am sad it will seemingly require the law courts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Congrats! you just made more of us ashamed.
Im tired of the idiot, chest thumping, no nuance, non-empathetic gays myself.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Cults4Bush: What are you talking about?
Did you too read that as suggesting we should not be up front about who we are?

As opposed to stating why it is impossible for us not to reveal who we are?
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. No Bluedawg
I completely understood and agree 100% with you. I thought it was an incredibly beautiful and well thought out post.
I think I was just feeling really sensitive and was shedding a few tears when I saw that post and reacted negatively to it.
Sorry about that, but GFs "Bullshit" just came off like a big bully, gay or not. Maybe he's just completely tactless? I dont know.... I probably shouldnt have posted so hastily.
Apologies.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. (((Cults4Bush))) Thank you - I appreciate your honsety.
I think we were all gut punched by the Prop-hate-8- vote passing.

peace-
bd12
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Read the damned premise
before you blow it out your @ss.

This is in anwswer to those who think we can pass and so wonder what are we bitching about.

Does it say anywhere you should not tell people you are gay? NO.

This is not a recipe for denying your gay this in answer to people that tell us we don't have to tell people that we are gay because we can blend in and so we are not a discriminated against minority.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Think! think! You are talking about another topic
an entirely other subject.

Which, if you engaged brain before mouth would have realized that you might have asked the next question: Why would people even think we would want to pass? I dunno that Myth #2 maybe?? Huh?

This is one answer to one question.

I dunno. why the hell did people vote for P8? Because they don't get it.

This is a start. Explaining why we don't have a choice about being who we are and even if we wanted to, we could not evade the truth of ourselves.

The next question is--why do people ever expect gays to have to hide who they are? dunno. Ask 'em. Write about it.

You and I already know the answer, but this came up yesterday and DU and it struck me as wrong on the face of it. Never mind it's wrong to ask people to hide who they are.

But I wanted to put this myth to rest. It's a start. Ther are a hell of lot more myths out there to be talked about.

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. why so hostile
there is no need for name calling.
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Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. Do you live in San Francisco?
Or LA, Portland, Seattle, New York, Boston, or DC? I'm guessing you do.

I make this judgment because you seem not to understand the situation most gay people live in. Most don't want to face unfair harassment for who they are. Some of them, for many reasons, may not actually be able to handle such harassment. And of course, some have a mortal fear of letting others know this side of them (often for a damn good reason). Your flippant suggestion that every gay person should just be open about it and not be "wimps" is offensive and uninformed.

Your other suggestion that anyone, anyone at all, can just find another place to work if they face discrimination in the workforce is unbelievably uninformed. It also, to be blunt, rubs off as very Republican. Unemployment is a persistent and currently growing problem. What if there are no other options in the workforce for a gay person discriminated against? Do you expect them to just move to a place with more jobs available? What if they needed that one job they were denied on grounds of being gay in order to move, or even to survive?

It must be great to live in San Francisco, or Portland, or wherever you live. Those bigots live miles away in the back country, where they can't hurt you. I wish I lived in such a tolerant city, myself. Then I wouldn't have to bear life in this small town with its population of small-town minds. But I guess my situation could be worse, right? I could live in Alabama, or the Ozarks, or the Oklahoma Panhandle. Or in Laramie.

The ideal that everyone should be able to be themselves is noble. It's a goal all gay people and their allies should strive for. Your suggestion that everyone simply must be themselves, right now, and like magic, their problems will go "Poof!", is just... quaint.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. When you live in a small town in USA people know your orientation
before you ever have a chance to speak, never mind if you want to speak or not.

They watch a same sex couple live in the same house, shop together, and of course some of us just "look" a certain way and there is no hiding.

Actually, the choice is completely out of our hands, whether we want to be out or not, because there is no freaking passing as straight. People watch, they form opinions and make their decisions.

And we all know about hate crimes and harassment, it's out there.
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GreenFiles Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. I live in Texas.
So there goes that argument!
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. six young man walked past a lesbian club
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 03:00 PM by noiretblu
in oakland, ca. when they saw me and my friend, they stopped and stared at us like they wanted to kill us. they uttered the usual offensive names and the security guard told them to leave or he'd called the cops. this is in the city with the largest population of lesbians in the united states. i am an out lesbian, but i am not stupid. i know when and where i have to be careful. and i know i am no match for six young men.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Like glass
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Yes, what bullshit indeed. I have lived what the OP has described.
It's not shame, you twit. It's about trying to live in a straight world. We DO lose opportunities, jobs, whole careers because of who we are. I know that, I've lived it. And I've responded exactly as you "advise" answering those who've asked me about my husband, that I don't have a husband, I have a partner. And it's a BIG FUCKING DEAL. I'm tired of gay wimps like you who don't understand or care about the hardships we endure.

Whatever privilege it is that inspires your audacity and rudeness, I'm glad I've never had it.
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GreenFiles Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Quite simple...
Your weakness and shame serves to harm me and MY partner. You can go hide in your closet, but stay in there and keep your mouth shut while I fight for your rights.
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Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. And your careless and haughty demeanor serves to get people killed.
Just figured I'd drive my previous argument home.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Well, fuck you very much. I have never been in the closet, but I have lost jobs because of my being
gay. Why don't you shut the fuck up and stop insulting people, while I go fight for your fucking rights. What a nasty little thing you are.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Let's take a step back, here's my logic, please just read this:
The argument that gays have a choice about being identified as gays, the argument that say's "We'll you guys can always hide." Viz a viz Jessie Jackson back in the 70's, and recent comments on DU, has to be answered first as being a fallacy.

Why?

Because the argument, as insensitive as it is, is merely about weakening our right to claim a civil rights based issue. That argument simply says: You have nmo worries, you can always hide.

Then, if at that stage you reply, 'Why should I have to?"

Then, the counter argument is, who knows, who cares, that's your choice, but the fact remains, you can hide if you want to.


So I showed why we can not hide. Why that's a fallacy.

Now if someone says, 'Hey gays can always hide."

The answer is no, "We can't pass. Not in real life. Not for more than a few minutes. It comes out in everyday dialogue--who we are is what we all talk about. What people hear from us about us. Even if we wanted to, we cannot "pass" as straight."

Once that argument is established then, when we add, "But why should we even have to hide or pass?" There is no come back retort. See?

Now, the decision of how we live our lives and wether we come out or not is deeply personal and not the topic of this thread.

That topic should go hand in hand about the consqeunces of coming out: violence on gays, hate crimes, loss of jobs, harrassment.

peace
bd12

.......here's the jackson quote, old as it is, it still lives on for some....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judy-wieder/gays-vs-african-americans_b_141606.html
So dismayed was I in the lack of support from the very people I had devoted my support to, I actually took this issue head on back in 1991 in an interview I did with Jesse Jackson when I was the editor of Genre magazine. (Yes, a girl was the editor of Genre.) I admit Jesse (who was so incredibly moving last night during President elect Obama's speech), has, hopefully, come a long ways on gay equal-rights issues since our 17-year-old interview. But at that time he told me "Don't compare your struggle to ours... you can hide." He was referring to skin color being something that left blacks vulnerable to prejudice at all times. Well, yes, I ventured, "but there's a lot of damage that comes from hiding." That got him. He could see a downside to hiding too. But his discomfort at gays taking a page from the civil rights movement--even if he was talking to someone who had invested her own blood, sweat, and tears in that same movement--was palatable.






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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I think you must have meant to post this to someone else. I agree with your OP.
You must have meant to respond to the same asshole I responded to.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Hi PelosiFan :) yeah, it's probably more of a general thought
about the thread, and I am losing either my a.) mind or b.) place on some of these many threads I am replying to, even at the expense of my own work, because this is so important or c.) both!

Thank you for your support.

Peace
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. People have been killed for being gay IN CALIFORNIA
WITHIN THE LAST DECADE.

Think before you open your mouth.
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
56. This poster signed on 17 days ago. And yet he/she sure does have tons to say about gay issues.
Just sayin'.
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motely36 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. The other day,
I told one of my married friends to go the entire day without mentioning his wife. Including, no ambiguous we statements. He told me it was almost impossible for him to do.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Exactly. We couldn't hide who we are even if we wanted to.
Anyone who thinks we can live full lives without revealing ourselves as gay is delusional.

Not to mention that we sholdn't be asked to do so in the first place.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
22. PLEASE cross-post this in GD as an OP -- and, all of us get his back if he does
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. OK, I'll cross post this in GD
wish me luck. DU can get a tad surely. LOL.
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friedgreentomatoes Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. K & R
My first recommendation of my 2+ yrs in DU
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. The Question Is Not "Can Gays Pass?". The Question is "Why Should We Have To?"
Edited on Thu Nov-06-08 07:51 PM by Toasterlad
Getting sidetracked into an argument about whether or not gays can be "normal" is counter-productive. We are NOT "normal". "Normal" is heterosexual. That is why they hate us, and why they will continue to hate us, despite our degree of success in assimilating. As every single minority group in history has been hated to varying degrees. It is unnecessary and futile to attempt to "debunk" the logic of their illogical hate.

We are OWED our rights regardless of straight America's comfort level with us.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Toasterlad - hate is illogical, bigotry is emotional
Edited on Thu Nov-06-08 08:26 PM by bluedawg12
however, the people that ask this question do not always hate us. Sometimes people are just in denial, or confused... or simply haven't given it any thought.

I think it's a reasonable mistake for some people to make if they don't understand what it is realy like to be gay. They can't unless one of us explains it.

My thread was not to raise comfort level, it was to raise awareness.

Anger at our loss, anger and rage against the bigotry we face can only go so far before it becomes non-productive. As gays we do need straight people to be allies, we do need fellow Dems to understand our issues and work with us/for us.

It took the AA civil rights movement many decades of work, it will also take work on our part.

I draw the line with haters, I can smell them, feel them, and hear their crap before they say it...but, there are people worth the effort.


And you are absolutely right, once we show why it's wrong to imagine that we could pass even if we wanted to...then, we ask them...but why should we? To make it easeir on them, their values, their comfort? hah. See?
We just closed the argument.

But first we show the basic premise, that there is no blending in for gays. We are who we are and THAT is why we fight for our civil rights. Exactly!

Peace
bd12
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. And: for those who do, and can, "pass" it is not a benefit.
"You can pass" is often thrown at gays as if it's a wonderful benefit that we'd enjoy.

It's not.

I can't conceive of anyone feeling joy about having to lie about who they are. If anything it's a curse.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Living in the closet is damaging to the person.
The rest of the story is, of course, the whole idea of oppression of gays, in the ways we mentioned in the thread - hate crimes are at the top of the list and then it goes one from there to work, to other social benefits.

So suggesting that we can pass then makes homophobia OK and gay rights a non-issue, is just really ignorant and cruel.

Yet, it is out there, among those who withold support for GLBT issues.

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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
31. First time I've read or heard about this 'pass' argument.
First I see where some DU'ers are blaming blacks for prop 8, and now this.

I mean, WTF's going on here?
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. The "but you can pass" argument is very old
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 01:26 PM by bluedawg12
and was trotted out on this forum a few days ago. So, I wrote to explain why we can't "pass."

How old is this argument?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judy-wieder/gays-vs-african-americans_b_141606.html
So dismayed was I in the lack of support from the very people I had devoted my support to, I actually took this issue head on back in 1991 in an interview I did with Jesse Jackson when I was the editor of Genre magazine. (Yes, a girl was the editor of Genre.) I admit Jesse (who was so incredibly moving last night during President elect Obama's speech), has, hopefully, come a long ways on gay equal-rights issues since our 17-year-old interview. But at that time he told me "Don't compare your struggle to ours... you can hide." He was referring to skin color being something that left blacks vulnerable to prejudice at all times. Well, yes, I ventured, "but there's a lot of damage that comes from hiding." That got him. He could see a downside to hiding too. But his discomfort at gays taking a page from the civil rights movement--even if he was talking to someone who had invested her own blood, sweat, and tears in that same movement--was palatable.



This was written to answer those who believe we can hide.

Once we prove we cannot hide, then we can ask with some force ..."and why should we?"


Otherwise, they just say, "Well you could hide,that's your choice to be open."

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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. I agree with the premise, it's just the first time I can
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 09:52 PM by guruoo
recall it being mentioned.

No, I agree, you shouldn't have to hide. However, I'm not sure that is what the 'pass' argument is
all about. Allow me to put this in the simplest of terms. You see a black person, there's little mistaking that
they're black! With gays it's not as easy. I mean, it's not likie it's printed across your forehead, right?
(Consider this is coming from someone who doesn't really make much of any effort to determine whether the people
I associate with are gay or straight.)
I don't pick and choose my friendships based upon skin color, or sexual orientation.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. guruoo- You can't always tell about someone being gay on sight.
But, once you get to a point in life, after a certain age. Say after college, when people are settling down, somewhere around 25 and then of course more with time, the things that people talk about is family and kids.

If you are gay you can't very well hide at that point. That's why I gave those various examples.

I agree, if you are very young, like kids, there, race is apparent from birth.

But--I bet if you think of it probably quite a few GLBT folks have been pegged as gay and maybe even picked on for being gay--as youngsters.

So, my point was we can't hide, especially when we get to a point where jobs, homes and neighbors come into play.

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Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. This is bloody brilliant!
Thank you so much for writing it. :)
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Athelwulf- You are very welcome.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
47. Yet another MUST-READ
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
48. The "passing" argument
is an implicit demand for us to stay in the closet. Or, then we'll get what we deserve.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #48
53.  MNBrewer - When people argue that we can pass I agree
it implies that we should remain closeted, but they don't see that as any big deal probably.

Perhaps some are hoping we will go in the closet and leave them alone??? LMAO. :rofl:

No such luck.

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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
49. We can only 'pass' by denying ourselves every second of every day.
By lying to ourselves and to everyone in the world around us.

I can't describe how great it was last semester to find out that the sci-fi/fantasy (i.e., the geeks who aren't video game addicts) club on campus had a big "Safe Space" sticker on their door. The kind of people I'm comfortable around in my geekiness are the same people on campus who I can be comfortable around with my sexuality and lack of conformation to gender norms too.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #49
51.  DarkTirade - Good for you! That sounds great
that there is an accepting group of interesting people.

Normally, I usually hang around a sci-fi forum,too. It's good to be a geek!
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
54. This is Myth #2. Gays can pass and there is no violence
and oppression.

readmoreoften covered this beautifully on GD, please check it out. Look at the beautiful GLBT's who "failed to pass" and died or were beaten. It is hard to look at and a true abomination.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4410916
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
55. If you can fire someone for being gay, you can fire someone
for being straight.

Or for being accused of being gay.

That's why it's irrelevant. You can fire someone for an idea that you can only admit, accuse, and cannot prove or disprove.

If someone told me that I had to fire all our black workers in another state, I'd be firing them for the IDEA of being black.

Ask any black person what being black means, and you'll get a hundred different answers, like variations on a theme. Ask a geneticist or a molecular biologist what being "black" means and he'll just laugh at you.

Being black is an idea. Everything else is just variations on a phenotype.

To all the people who disagree that Jim Crow and gay rights have nothing in common, wake your stupid asses up.

During WWII the NAACP said you can't use a Jim Crow army to fight for the free world. Well, fellow democrats who voted against us: you lying sacks of shit, you got us to fight for you. The good news is, we're recently mobilized, "armed" so to speak, and ready for a fight. If you voted for Obama and against us, you're in OUR crosshairs now.

This is our party, not yours. Voting for someone just because he's black is as bad as voting for someone just because he's white. The rest of us voted because he was best for the job, and you voted against us. I hope you are uncomfortable this very second, because it's the most comfortable you're going to be until we have the indisputable legal right to our own lives and families without interference FROM YOU.



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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. You win the best idea of the week-there is no such thing as "race"
Edited on Sun Nov-09-08 06:51 PM by bluedawg12
"Ask a geneticist or a molecular biologist what being "black" means and he'll just laugh at you."

There is no race. There is no genetic marker for race. There are some studies that show that we all migrated out of Africa. Over time we developed adaptations to suit our climates but that just looks different - we are most likely all Africans and THAT is pretty cool and have thought so for years - at least since I first heard of the mtDNA studies and Mitochondrial Eve.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I undersatnd it, we are all descendants of the human prototype, the little clicking Bushmen of the Kalahari ( the great flick: The Gods Must be Crazy).

There is no "race", but our damned evolved brain has invented politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings)#Population_genetics:_population_and_cline
Firstly all mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages derive from a common ancestral molecule. For mtDNA this ancestor is estimated to have lived about 140,000-290,000 years ago (Mitochondrial Eve), while for Y chromosomes the ancestor is estimated to have lived about 70,000 years ago (Y chromosome Adam).

mtDNA and Y chromosome work supports a recent African origin for anatomically modern humans, with the ancestors of all extant modern humans leaving Africa somewhere between 100,000 - 50,000 years ago.<46><47><48><49>
The American Anthropological Association, drawing on biological research, currently holds that "The concept of race is a social and cultural construction... . Race simply cannot be tested or proven scientifically," and that, "It is clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. The concept of 'race' has no validity ... in the human species".<7>



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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
58. From LA Times mentions "passing" notion.
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 12:48 PM by bluedawg12
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gayblack8-2008nov08,0,1601616.story

Gays, blacks divided on Proposition 8
For many African Americans, it's not a civil rights issue.
By Cara Mia DiMassa and Jessica Garrison
November 8, 2008

For Trebor Healey, a 46-year-old gay man from Glendora, Tuesday's election was bittersweet.

He was thrilled that the nation elected its first African American president. But he was disappointed that black voters, traditionally among the most reliably liberal in the state, voted overwhelmingly to ban same-sex marriage.

He understands that there are differences between the civil rights battles of blacks and gays: For one thing, he notes, gay people have a much easier time blending in. Still, he says, he thinks it's sad that "people do not equate one civil rights struggle with another."

Many black voters didn't see it that way.

"I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.
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