The demdog78 thread.

[Fran Kubelik]

Leave it alone. Hit alert. It's a gathering of hateful people trying to bait us.

[terrya]

1. I just alerted.

This is a forum about GLBT issues. Not to ask us why we should be "proud" of being gay. I question this person's motives, given what was posted in GD: Presidential a little while ago.

Thanks.

[racaulk]

2. I alerted as well.

Not necessarily because of the OP, because I do think he's being sincere in his curiousity. But because many of the replies (from one poster in particular) are inappropriate, and I don't need to come to the GLBT forum to hear my entire life reduced to nothing more than what I do wtih my sex organs.

[Yes We Did]

3. Actually, I alerted it that poster myself.

I know who you are talking about.

[LeftCoast]

4. Do you see why you got the reactions that you did?

Do you see what followed you to our sub-forum?

I wonder if anything was learned by this whole unpleasant affair.

[Yes We Did]

5. What I learned...

Is that in only takes one person to ruin a good thing, however if you go back now and hit ignore on that person for the most part the rest of it was very constructive.

I know Pelosi and Frank think I was just trying to start shit, but that's on them. As I said repeatedly, when it comes to "walking on eggshells" as it was put, that is not a sexuality thing, it's a personality thing.

People will read one thing, and take from it what they want to.

I am still very glad the the vast majority of DUers who read it had a positive response. I think dialog is never a bad thing, at least when cooler head can prevail.

It was sad to see that level of ignorance though. But as I said, aside from that poster it was a very positive experience. I learned quite a bit actually, and am very grateful for all those who shared with me.

Edit: And yes, I do see why I got some of the reactions. With people like MIZZ... out there, I can definitely understand the level of skepticism. I would probably feel the same way if it was me.

[LeftCoast]

6. I'm glad some good came of it then, because for me it was like having violence dragged into my home

For many of us DU is not a particularly friendly place and so we like to take refuge here in the GLBT sub forum. To have someone come there and question what for many of us is a founding principal of our identity is shocking no matter how well intentioned. To then have someone who was outright hostile follow close on the heals of the discussion is even less welcome.

I am glad that we could all have a teaching moment, but please understand the cost of that moment to some of us.

[Yes We Did]

7. Well, just know you have at least ONE friend out there...

And I am sorry for any... what's the word? I'm just sorry if my post bothered/troubled/insulted you in any way. But I did take a lot from it, if that is any consolation.

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. I think it was a fair question, although tactlessly posed

A better way to ask might have been, "How do you define 'gay pride' and why? I would like to understand the term better." It would not have immediately put us on the defensive.

[Yes We Did]

10. Yes, well, you should have told me that when I posted it.

;)
But seriously, I was trying to be as tactful as possible; not particulary my strong suit. Although, generally I am attacking repukes and don't have to give it much thought; as they rarely deserve it.

I did go back and edit the question though in an attempt to be more tactful. :)

[NorthCarolina]

8. I honestly think a lack of "discussion" with the straight community

has hampered progress within the LGBT community. I understand that there are some who may come to only "incite" and they should be appropriately disregarded. But when the opportunity arises to actually "inform" in an open and honest discussion, it will behoove us to do so. There can be no gains without discussion.

[Fran Kubelik]

11. I had just been reading your posts in the other thread in GD-P and thought to myself...

"Who IS this guy? Why does he feel the need to talk about the gay people posting on this thread as though we are unable to read what he says, and reach out to the OP to say, in effect - 'I feel ya, brother - these guys are a bunch of whiners.'

For what it's worth, no one said "It's all or nothing - NOW." I wish you didn't see it that way. It's frustrating because if feels like our straight DU friends, in many cases, are intentionally refusing to grasp the subtleties of what we are saying. I don't expect Joe Biden to do a 180 degree turn on his position on gay marriage. I just wish he hadn't seemed so....I dunno...smug about it when he said what he said, and I wish he hadn't let it stand that he agrees with Sarah Palin. Because he DOESN'T agree with her. But it was either a gaffe on his part, or it was political expediency at it's best/worst - he was willing to make it seem like he thought like Sarah Palin - who thinks being gay is a choice and wants to amend the constitution to take away partner benefits.

[Yes We Did]

12. As I admitted above... sometime I am not the most tactful...

For the record, the only "choice" I see in it is where or not you want to be happy. And that is not a choice anyone should have to make. You are who you are. You're born how your born. Live your life, and as long as you are happy, and you are not hurting anyone else, fuck all those people who have a problem with it.

[LostinVA]

15. You WERE just trying to start shit

[Yes We Did]

16. You are entitled to your opinion.

No matter how wrong you are.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Your snark and arrogance

belie your claim of sincerity.

[Yes We Did]

21. Yes, and I could say the same for you. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Except you know nothing about this subject

And you keep lecturing those who live it. You came in and stank up the place. One moment on this thread you are sorry, thet next you are sniping. That is just what it is.
You falsely claimed people were saying what they were not. That is not untactful, that is untruthful, and an honest man does not try to confuse those two things. He owns it, and acts accordingly.

[Yes We Did]

23. Goodnight.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Prove who right about what?

Forget it. You are not an honest broker, or perhaps this went so far up the creek that you are being fully misjudged. Either way, it is a bore for the grown ups.
peace

[Yes We Did]

25. I was warned that it is not okay for straight people to post in here.

And that if I got into a long drawn out conversation, sooner or later something I said would be taken out of context and I would be attacked beyond relief.

I found myself questioning almost every sentance I wrote, afraid of pissing someone off. And despite the most careful wording I could come up with, that is exactly what happened.

I came in here looking for honest answers to an honest question. It had great potential, and I was actually enjoying myself and hearing a different perspective.

Unfortunately, it didn't last long. I fail to understand how a group of people can ask for "acceptance" and when someone comes looking for a deeper understanding that person is attacked.

I can understand why though. I would imagine that if I had to go through everything you guys & gals go through, I would probably be skeptical of someone coming in here asking questions too.

And yes, it was a vocal minority, but quite frankly, how do you ever expect people to understand your points when you (not you in particular) chase them away.

You have a right to be cynical. You have a right to be angry. But come on, we're not all like that. It's just a shame, that's all. This has really bothered me. I really had nothing but the best of intentions.

And even my follow up thread with the most positive comments from my earlier thread was attacked.

So, yeah, I kind of wish I wouldn't have bothered. It hardly seems worth it at this point.

Say what you want about me. You don't know me from anyone else on this board. You have no reason to trust I meant a word I said, but at least respect the fact that I came in her, asked a question, attempted to make something positive out of it, and wished you all well.

That is all.
Good Night.

demdog78

[LostinVA]

27. TOTAL LIE -- straight people are very, very welcome in here

As long as they realize this is the GLBT Forum. This is our safe haven, and we will NOT be lectured, mocked, etc. by people ion here, no more than DU AAs expect to be lectured, mocked, etc. about race issues in their forum.

Your perennial ploy of playing the outraged victim in here and other GLBT threads is nothing new on DU -- by either you or other posters.

Boo hoo.

[Yes We Did]

28. yes, I'm sorry for coming into your safe haven and asking a question.

Safe Haven from what? The rest of DU? Where it is fine to gay bash? Wow. Thicke.

I wasn't lecturing or mocking. I'm sorry you took it that way. However, you and others have made me feel very unwelcome. As far as me playing the perrenial outraged victim, what the f*ck ever.

You tell me what I said in this forum that was so damned wrong. So insulting. You tell me. No, you show me.

I get attacked in here, respond back, and I'M the bad guy? This isn't basketball or football. If I get insulted I"m going to insult back.

AND let me point out, not that you give a shit, that when I do respond to being attacked, I made it clear that.... fuck it. You're not worth it.

[LostinVA]

30. boohooboohooboohooo -- poor wittle straight boy picked on by the nasty gays

You are pathetic, and either the blinders you wear are a mile wide or you just like lying. Go read some of your own posts.

:eyes:

[Yes We Did]

33. Will you just stop.

I mean, really. I know what I said. I don't need to go back and read them. I will admit, very often I speak off the cuff, and don't do the best job explaining what I'm thinking. Would you really like to hear my thoughts? Would you really like me to expain? I can if you really want to read and try to understand.

You know, I came in here and asked a question. I wasn't snarky, I apologized repeatedly if I inadvertantly offended anyone but none of that matters.

And it's not the "nasty gays" as you put it, it's just rude people. As I said, it has nothing to do with sexuality; it's about the personality.

I can understand your cynacism, I can... but what I did in here; there is nothing wrong with it. I had nothing but good intentions, and if you can't see that, then that is on you.

And while I can't empathize with you, I can sympathize. And what you and the rest of your community have had to put up with is a travesty, but don't tear me down for trying to understand it.

[Creideiki]

63. "I don't hate all gay people"

"I only hate the ones that think they're equal to me."

Thanks for that.

I've stopped coming here regularly because of this crap. We're not wanted. I get it. Thanks for pointing that out yet again. I agree. I think that PHB is a much better progressive discussion site, and maybe part of that is because of who started and runs it.

[Zuiderelle]

31. Oh, ha, I just read this! Are you calling me "that poster" ? Wow, you have a lot of nerve.

I'll give you that.

You are like McCain's health care plan. Give with one hand and take with the other.

[Yes We Did]

35. No, I wasn't.

I was talking about MIZZ; the one who got the pizza; the one who brought all the negativity into that thread.

[Zuiderelle]

37. "I know Pelosi and Frank think I was just trying to start shit, but that's on them"

I guess that's what confused me. You keep saying about anyone who doesn't trust your intentions "it's on them."

[Yes We Did]

43. There have been so many posts...

It is very hard to keep track at this point. But I do know what I was referring to there.

I want to make a few things clear with you though, because you (I think you) brought up McClurkin and my comments back then about that.

Somehow the bible was brought up, and something about sin... you know what I'm talking about.

I made the statement that it was like shell fish. According to the bible, eating shell-fish is an abomination. Technically, I believe that is mentions more than homosexuality.

And I brought that up; trying to say that it was all a bunch of bull shit. The bible is written by man; not by god or jesus or whoever. It was man made.

And a lot of it is just bull shit; especially stuff pertaining to the LGBT community.

I said that, and all of the sudden, I'm told I'm calling gays sinners; which was exactly contrary to the point I was making.

According to the bible we are all sinners; for some pretty stupid shit, which is why I made the point:

It's mostly shit.
I don't buy into it.
I don't prescribe/subscribe to it.

The way I see it, you are who you are, and that's all there is to it. If you live your life as you see fit, and try not to hurt anyone... it's all good.

When you start talking about this stuff, it is very easy for someone's intentions or words to get misunderstood. I would imagine that you (all of the GLBT) is on edge quite a bit; not knowing if someone is just messing with you or if they are serious.

There are a lot of bigoted assholes out there. I might be an asshole at times, in fact I AM an asshole at times, but I'm not a bigot.

As far as the other thread yesterday... what comment do you want me to respond to? I'm sorry I don't agree with you on everything. I was just trying to keep that OP from saying something offensive or just plain stupid. And yes, I do think Obama's plan is the most progressive out there to further the advancement of the LGBT. Is it perfect? NO. Of course not, but it is a huge step in the right direction; a necessary step if you are every going to truly get equal rights.

I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you, but I won't belabor the point any further. I wish you the best.

demdog

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

13. That and the GDP one have REALLY pissed me off today

Tired of this shit.

[Fran Kubelik]

14. You and me both, sister.

I need to take a deep breath - I might just jump down the wrong person's throat.

[LostinVA]

17. And, I am sick of the faux protests of innocence, too

When they bring it to THIS forum -- argh.

[Yes We Did]

18. Is that your way of saying I am not welcome here?

And that I should not ask any questions? Is that what you are really getting at?

If so, tell me, how does that solve anything?

[LostinVA]

26. Oh yes, that is exactly what I'm saying

:eyes:

[Yes We Did]

49. That's what it sounded like.

That's why I asked.

[racaulk]

19. I just now saw that thread, and it was locked before I could respond.

I also noticed our resident transphobe was there to chime in, condescend, and act as if he speaks on behalf of all rational gay people, a group of which he clearly considers himself. But whenever there are flareups concerning GLBT equality on DU, he always finds himself on the outside looking in. Funny that...


Edited to correct a spelling error.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. yeah, funny that.

:)

[Yes We Did]

34. But please notice one thing about that...

The mod locked it "at the OP's request"

[cboy4]

32. Oh boy, what did I miss in GDP

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

36. The OP agreeing with someone trashing us

Leading to his threads in here.

Locked thread.

[Yes We Did]

39. That's not true.

However, yes, I did agree that Obama/Biden are still better than McCain/Palin.

And that what Obama/Biden are offering is a first step; the first real step, and that you have to start from somewhere.

My "they want it all now" comment referred to the few in the room who argued that it wasn't enough. Instead, that one word was taken to mean the entire culture.

[LostinVA]

40. Revisionist history at its finest

[Yes We Did]

45. You are the revisionist here VA.

I stand by what I said.

[cboy4]

42. Oh, the one that insinuates teh gays are voting for McCain

and that it's better to be under the bus than to be exterminated?

:puke:

[Yes We Did]

46. yes... that's kind of what I was trying to keep him from doing....

Saying something insulting.

Didn't work.

[Zuiderelle]

50. How were you trying to "keep" him from doing it by saying that people had to be EXTREMELY careful

with their words, when he already said something insulting it in the OP he wrote?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7371463&mesg_id=7373444

"These threads always are. Just have to be EXTREMELY careful with your choice of words."

And THEN you say "If I were you, I'd get out of here while you still can. n/t"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7371463&mesg_id=7372397

If you were really trying to help him, then why didn't you say something like "Why are you accusing any GLBT DUers or being pissed at Obama/Biden, instead of just presenting the link which is valid and interesting in its own right?"

The most ironic thing is that the OP of that thread apologized and requested the thread be locked, and UNDERSTOOD how his OP was insulting to gay people. He didn't argue about it like you are, he apologized.

[Yes We Did]

52. I didn't read the entire thread at that point.

Actually never did read the whole thing.

And what I am agrueing here isn't whether it was insulting or not; who am I to say what you should be insulted of.

What I am arguing is my intentions, and how they were misconstrued.

And yes, threads like that... out there... are almost always flamed. You know that. Do we have to rehash the primaries? That's just how it is.

As far as why didn't I say this or that... Because I didn't. I said what I thought at the moment; what I thought would work for that individual the make him stop; based on the mentality of that individual.

Someone else... I probably would have worded it different.

And as far as him "getting out while he still can..." yeah, get out while you still can; before you get tombstoned. Nothing more, nothing less.

And when I say it's "on you" I mean it. Everything you read here is open to interpretation of the reader. So yes, it's on "you" or anyone else for that matter, do understand what the poster is saying. Believe it or don't, there is nothing I can do to make you see through my eyes and believe that what I am saying in sincere.

One other thing, while I'm at it. VA keeps saying I'm just pretending to be sympathetic... or whatever it was... Do you really think that I would still be in here for this long trying to explain myself so I could infiltrate the GLBT forum on DU for... whatever reasons... I have what.. 2400 posts... If I was going to go out for something like that, don't you think I would have done it a long time ago?

I won't apologize for what I wrote, but I do apologize for how I wrote some of it. Sometimes when you try to be too careful, you end up sounding like an ass.

[Yes We Did]

38. Somebody posted a thread about Palin's Religion.

Which calls for the EXTERMINATION of the entire GLBT community. The OP's linked to a Kos diary to show what he/she was talking about.

Basically, the whole McClurkin thing all over again insued. The post got flamed beyond belief, and the mods locked it at the OP's request.

What do you call it... oh, he was basically called a concern troll for worrying that the GLBT community would back McCain over Obama because Biden said he didn't support gay marriage.

As with what always happens in those threads, things were said that shouldn't have been, or things were said that could have been worded differently... You know how it goes.

[cboy4]

44. Yea I read it.

Translation: The gays need to shut their mouths.

[Yes We Did]

47. Well... not my opinion...

but I can see how it was taken that way.

[Zuiderelle]

51. Can I ask you a favor? Please stay out of the GLBT forum?

You're not gay, and you're arguing with gay people here who are rightfully offended by someone insinuating that they would not vote for Obama because they are disappointed in Biden's answering No to gay marriage.

Just stop where you are and leave.

I can't even imagine someone doing this in the AA group:

"Gulp. Can I ask a question?
Okay, I've been pacing around trying to figure out how to word this question; so not to be accused of anything nefarious, but quite honestly, after much deliberation I have come to the conclusion that people will think what they want, regardless of how carefully you word something. So here goes.

What is there about being black to be "proud" of?

edit: Let me rephrase that. What I mean by that is why is a person's skin color something that you feel you have to be proud of; shouldn't it be something that is just accepted as part of the whole person?

Now, I asked my friend this, and her answer left me a little disappointed, as she says she wears her black pride wear to piss off white people. And I just find it hard to believe that her opinion is really shared widely.

I mean... I'm not "proud" to be white. I don't think skin color is anything to be proud of. The way I see it, you just "are" or "aren't" whatever you "are" or "aren't"

I don't know. Maybe I'm just ahead of the curve on this one. I just don't see skin color as something that SHOULD be an issue; from any perspective.

But please, can some of you explain to me why you are "proud" to black?

It's an honest question. I am just curious what you have to say.

And the only words I changed from YOUR THREAD HERE were the words:

Gay - Black
Straight - White
Sexuality - Skin Color


See how bigoted that sounds?

[Yes We Did]

53. I never brought that up.

You want to be pissed at him, be pissed at him. You should be. But my question was not a bigoted question. It was an honest question; it is only bigoted if you choose to look at it that way.

And as far as comparing it to other cultures, and switching the word it doesn't apply.

The AA culture doesn't involve a whole lot of "black pride" wear. It doesn't involve parades and festivals; at least not to the degree of the GLBT. Neither do any of the other groups you suggested.

[LostinVA]

54. Down the fucking rabbit hole, Alice

[Zuiderelle]

55. Are you fucking kidding me? African Americans don't have any "black pride" ???

They have just as much as we do. Not all gay people wear rainbows and "pride wear" as you put it, you know. Black pride is EXACTLY the same as gay pride. It's a minority saying that they are not worse than you. That they don't have to be ashamed of who they are. And some of them wear it proudly. And good for them. They should.

You should be ashamed of yourself to not understand this. Your response here proves that all your pretense of understanding the sincere answers about gay pride given you in that thread is just that, a pretense. If you don't understand how gay pride is like black pride, then you don't understand a damn thing.

Here's your post that I'm answering in case you edit it:

I never brought that up.
Posted by demdog78


You want to be pissed at him, be pissed at him. You should be. But my question was not a bigoted question. It was an honest question; it is only bigoted if you choose to look at it that way.

And as far as comparing it to other cultures, and switching the word it doesn't apply.

The AA culture doesn't involve a whole lot of "black pride" wear. It doesn't involve parades and festivals; at least not to the degree of the GLBT. Neither do any of the other groups you suggested.

[Yes We Did]

56. You misunderstood what I said.

I didn't say they don't have pride. I said you don't see "black pride" rallys. You dont' see a lot of "black pride" clothing, or "black pride" parades.

You are right though, I don't belong in here. And it's not because I am not willing to communicate, it's because you are not willing to listen.

[Zuiderelle]

58. Bullshit. I see just as much black pride clothing as I see gay pride clothing.

It's not the norm, just as it's not the norm for gay people to go around wearing gay pride clothing. I don't personally know ANY gay people who do. And there are plenty of African American festivals that celebrate them and their pride. Just because they don't call them "pride" parades, doesn't mean that they aren't the same thing. You don't get a pass simply because the term "Pride parade" has been associated with gay parades.

I've read everything you've written here in the GLBT forum since yesterday, and you've only solidified my opinion of you. You are insincere and you don't belong in here because of THAT.

[Yes We Did]

59. Oh come on!

Seriously? Seriously? Wow.

I'm done.

[Zuiderelle]

60. Come on what? You are saying that African Americans don't have Pride Parades...

so therefore gay pride is not the same as black pride. I'm saying that you are wrong. What's "wow" about that? It's "wow" that you don't see the correlation.

Thanks for being done though. I'm a little tired of this.

[Yes We Did]

61. What's "wow' is your spin on things.

[Zuiderelle]

62. My "spin" was to quote you VERBATIM with only a few words replaced.

How is that spin?

Never mind, please don't answer. I really want to have the last word here, even though I know you want it.

:hi:

[Creideiki]

64. What do you think Juneteenth is about?

Or in Chicago, the freaking Bud Billiken parade--the largest parade in the city every year.

There's nothing you say that's worth listening to. You walk in with a chip on your shoulder and insist that we should be "good gays" and agree with you and accept being treated like 2nd class citizens, or shut up.

[LostinVA]

41. Check out teh lcoked thread, then check out THIS OP's revisionist history

[Yes We Did]

48. Yes, I hope they do.

And then I hope they read my posts in here trying to explain it to you, as you apparently have either refused to do, or at least refused to acknowledge.

[Book Lover]

57. What the hell is it you want? A medal for coming in here

and trying to empathize? It. Is. Not. About. You.