Best of DU Thread - LGBT Edition - #4

[Lithos]

Wanted to let people know it is okay to post about discussions in other areas of DU. However, there was some confusion about my lock. I hope the following helps.

First, please do not comment about rule or content infractions on DU, nor use this as a place to comment on other DU'ers in a negative sense. Just like every other thread, it is subject to DU's rules for civility and the like.

Second, if you feel someone is promoting discrimination or an intolerant viewpoint, then please use the alert function on that particular post. If you don't let us know, then we can't respond. There are only a handful of moderators, who unlike Grovelbot, are humans which means that not only are we not able to read all of the posts on this board, we may not actually understand what is going on. You don't know how valuable the "alert" system is to us.

We do make mistakes and some rulings are not going to always be fair or we may appear to not be reacting publicly. I can rest assure you that alerts are discussed in the Moderator Forum between the moderators. Because of various checks and balances that Skinner has alluded to in the past, this process may appear slow, but we do try and always be fair. When in doubt, PM us, Skinner or the other admins.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Omaha Steve]

1. I don't have any problems with the mods on ANY DU forum

I doubt I'll ever apply for the tough job. I do post here from time to time. Always in a supportive way.

[LeftCoast]

2. I've always felt that these threads were useful in exposing homophobia

I feel sad that we will no longer be able to point out those things which seem to often slip under the radar around here. If anyone cares, please note my disapproval of this action. I feel this is a negative turn in terms of how DU is dealing with its problems with homophobia.

[LostinVA]

3. I agree

I don't know what purpose this "Thread #4" serves, if it can't be used to raise awareness of what happens around here.

[LeftCoast]

4. I think it's shameful that we can post about homophobia as long as it takes place anywhere but DU

Yet another reason not to donate this cycle.

[LostinVA]

5. Absolutely

This thread is just another smack in the face.

The "best of" threads in the African American group are still RIGHTFULLY open. DU has plenty of homophobia and racism. Both should be exposed.

[Solon]

9. All we should ask for is consistency...

No more, no less. If the rules are in violation when calling out other DUers, then it should apply equally in that forum as it does here. Otherwise the OP is being hypocritical.

[mikelgb]

21. this moderator hypocritical!?

surely you jest...

[Solon]

22. I wish I were jesting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=258&topic_id=3450#4391

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=71359&mesg_id=74457

Look at the differences in this mods attitudes towards two minority groups. Someone is biased.

[mikelgb]

24. (sarcasm)

[Solon]

28. I figured that out, after I posted!

My bad. :blush:

Talk about jumping the gun!

[Lithos]

45. The rules apply equally

However, I do have a question. Did you hit alert when you saw it?

As I stated, the moderators can't read every thread so we're dependent on users to hit the alert button.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Solon]

47. I did last night, but only because I saw that the "Part 2" thread here was locked...

and therefore I assumed that the "Best of..." Part 2 thread in the African-American issues forum also violated the rules.

[The Great Escape]

7. You Are Right...

the best of DU LGBT editions threads 1 thru 3 were the best stuff on these forums in years. Thread 4 is useless. Hetero privelige cannot be challenged.

[Solon]

6. Why not post this same admonishment over here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=258

And while your at it, lock this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x4396

Why is it only Gays and their friends who can't comment on other people's bigotries?

[LeftCoast]

8. I believe these are valid posts. I think the mods need to back off.

[LostinVA]

10. Definitely -- I think both the GLBT and AA groups should be allowed to post these threads

We've had these threads for months, and I wonder what caused the sudden lock.

[hulklogan]

13. Heterosexual straights decided to complain?

We're such bullies when we call them out on their anti-gay bigotry, you know. :eyes:

[Solon]

14. Not all of us...

:hi:

[uppityperson]

40. Not all of us and I agree, I believe these are valid posts. I think the mods need to back off.

[Solon]

11. I agree, but they should treat every group on this board equally...

If this is truly a "progressive" board, they can do no less. But I don't see that, it seems the mods are in violation of their own rules.

[LostinVA]

16. It appears that you are correct

[Solon]

19. I know, its a sad situation...

Even in the most liberal corners of the Internet, there is no refuge from anti-gay bias.

[The Great Escape]

17. This Thread Is Probably Not Going To Make It Much Longer Either...

this site has an increasingly bad track record when it comes to homophobia and the bashing of rural whites.

[Jamastiene]

65. Don't forget women.

It's pretty bad when other places seem so much more civilized than a place that was a stalwart for years. It's very depressing to see an OP that effectively is telling us to STFU.

[dsc]

12. I looked at the unlocked AA thread and noticed a difference

would it be OK for us to discuss archived threads? They apparently limit their threads to archived ones.

[LostinVA]

15. Given Lithos' locking message on the first AA thread, it doesn't look like they limit it

to just archived threads. Most of the things in discussion, just happen to be archived.

I think the locking message on the first AA thread is quite telling of the uneven policy in place here. I fully support the AA threads, but I don't understand why the threads here were locked.

[Solon]

20. Yes, that does seem to be clear evidence of bias...

I realize that the mods can't be everywhere at once, but when a mod actually SUGGESTS that people "violate" the rules of DU by continuing a "Best of..." thread, then it seems like this argument doesn't hold water.

[yowzayowzayowza]

31. Correct regarding archived posts in the locked AA thread.

Links to unarchived posts are fine. The GLBT thread was locked due to excessive call-outs, discussion of members not present. These threads work when they're about issues, not members. Had the GLBT thread become too old or large, it would have been concluded with a lock similar to the AA thread.

:hi:

[dsc]

32. It would be nice if the mod who posted this would make this clear

I have already alerted to no avail.

[bliss_eternal]

34. Just to note...

...my comments were more about the comparison made to the AA forum threads, not about locks here (as I haven't looked at the locks or read why they were made). Based on Lithos's comments, I hoped I could provide some help based on what problems I saw arise when doing this in AA forum.

Hope this helps.

:hi:

p.s. My comments in this thread are in no way to minimize anyone's complaints of any bias. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and opinions.

[Solon]

35. That would explain the lock on part 3, but not part 2, and part 1 isn't locked...yet...

why so inconsistent? Why not just delete the offending posts in those threads, rather than lock them?

[bliss_eternal]

36. Good question.

Hope you are given a helpful response.

For the record, I haven't looked at the threads--to see what was locked, reasons give, why, etc.

So my comments (offering to give advice on how I contributed to keeping the threads going in the other forum) was a separate issue. I don't want to see the threads stopped here--or anyone discouraged about keeping them going. I hoped I could offer feedback on what was helpful and worked when I was more active with such threads (Best of).

[Solon]

37. That's part of the reason why I kicked part 1, to see one thread is still alive...

I can see why you wouldn't want an OP to be a call out, but more a subject head for setting the tone of the thread. Chovexani's threads were modeled after yours, and apparently there is no rule against linking to active threads. It seems like the biggest objection the mods can come up with is that many posters were, I guess you could say, overzealous in their confrontation of homophobia. That includes me, I guess, but I was never one to follow rules to the letter. :D

[bliss_eternal]

39. LOL.

It's a challenge to not appear "overzealous" as you called it. When you feel so strongly about something, how can you not be passionate in your comments regarding the issue, and someone's mistreatment of it? :shrug:

I was apparently wrong in my understanding of the rules. (where's that dunce cap? lol)

I'd always thought one couldn't link to active threads in sub-forums. Whenever I've seen it done, (or done it :P) it was locked. Based on seeing that (and how I read the rules of sub-forums) was why I insisted no one link to active threads.

[Solon]

44. As far as I know, the rules for Groups only differ from the rest of DU...

in that only donors can participate and if you disrupt the group in question, you can be banned from that particular group, rather than from all of DU. Other than that, all the other rules apply the same way. The GLBT forum is a sub-forum, just like many other topical forums, that are basically no different than GD, GD:P and the Lounge as far as rules are concerned. The only exception would be the I/P forum, or, as I call it, the Boxing ring. :) Other than that, there are only general guidelines to keep things on topic.

[bliss_eternal]

50. You're right...

..."I" misinterpreted them. :blush:

All of this:

Special Rules for DU Groups

Unfortunately, in the past some members have used the protected "echo-chamber" available in the DU Groups in ways that increased feelings of victimization among members of that Group, or increased hostility toward DU members who are not participants in that Group. This has been a particular problem in Groups devoted to specific Democratic candidates, and in Groups for believers or non-believers. Because of this misuse of the DU Groups, we have been forced to institute a few additional rules to keep discussions productive.

Do not use the DU Groups to whip up feelings of victimization or to complain about perceived mistreatment by the administrators, moderators, or members of Democratic Underground.

Do not use the DU Groups to discuss members of Democratic Underground who you do not like, or whom you believe to be disruptors.

Do not use the DU Groups to "rally the troops" to go participate in discussion threads elsewhere on our website, or to likewise encourage members to vote in polls or recommend threads or alert on posts.
----------------------------------------
Since the AA forum is a "donor" area, I didn't want to be accused of creating (or contributing to) a thread that did any of the above. I also didn't want anyone accused of doing that, by linking to the thread. So I was strict about that (no links to open threads). If a thread is archived, no one can be accused of sending people to "set another member straight," alert on them, etc. :shrug:

[Solon]

51. I can understand that, the thing, of course, is that this is a topic forum...

so it doesn't have to follow those rules itself. Being part of the "Open forums" of DU(non-donors can participate), this is to be expected.

[bliss_eternal]

54. I've sometimes wondered...

...if it would be beneficial to have a sub-forum for glbt. (note to mods--I'm not suggesting one, I know that requires permission from an admin.)

Whenever there is a heated issue involving glbt community, I've seen members post here (seeming to seek refuge from the storm). But inevitably, they are followed in by members from the main forum (seeming to want to get in a few last digs). :( :mad: That has bothered me, as you don't seem to have a place to get away from some of that crap. I hope that makes sense.

[Solon]

56. A GLBT group wouldn't be a bad idea, actually...

at least then, some atrocious members can be banned from the forum if not DU itself, so this continuing of flamewars can be avoided.

[bliss_eternal]

57. If I may...

...make a suggestion (based on prior experience). If you are interested in seeing if there is enough interest for a group, please contact an admin. BEFORE you create an interest thread. It tends to go farther with the admins. if someone has sought their permission first. (I helped with creating the Pro-choice forum, despite DU already having a Choice forum--so it was a little controversial. ;) ).

[Solon]

59. Ohh, I even know what it could be called, the GLBT/Marriage Equality group...

To prevent those assholes who are against Marriage Equality or think Civil Unions are "all that" from cluttering the board with bullshit! Hmm...I'll have to think about it and make a statement on it first. I would imagine the Admins want that first, before we go to them, hat in hand, to ask for its creation.

[bliss_eternal]

61. Love it...!

That's a kick-ass name!:thumbsup:

Read here (regarding creating a group)--for what you need before you start the thread, etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=206x10

Since technically, there is a "glbt group", I would still ask Skinner (or another admin) if it's cool BEFORE creating a thread asking for interested donors. Let me know what you decide--I think it's a great idea!

[Solon]

63. I'll have to think more about the mission statement though...

I want it to be general enough to encompass most issues that GLBT folks deal with, such as workplace and housing discrimination, but also be specifically for Marriage Equality as well.

[Solon]

91. I sent an e-mail to Skinner, don't know when he'll respond though...

More or less just put forth the argument that it would be a more focused group than the GLBT topic forum, and being a DU group would allow for more...open discussions involving civil rights for GLBT people.

[yowzayowzayowza]

67. *I* agree. These "Best of DU...?" threads are not up to code.

In other serial threads from the Photography contests to the Election Reform news the OP is responsible for laying out the purpose, organization, scope, duration, rules, decorum, etc that guide and orient the thread. Due to the sensitive nature of these discussions a few words of warning on boundaries would probably be useful to carry in each "Best of DU...?" OP. Some consistency would also facilitate bringin noobz up to speed and help insure a respectful tone worthy of these issues. So my suggestion: an organizational thread to draw consensus on a generic GLBT "Best of DU...?" OP.


yowzayowzayowza
DU *Member*

:hi:

[DarkTirade]

42. Thanks for the clarification.

:)

[bliss_eternal]

25. Yes.

(if you want to know more, please pm me). ;)

I was a big ole pain in the ass about this (ask the mods and members of that forum). Or look at this message I posted in the thread, when I saw people linking to active threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x3450#3829

A lot of the deletes you'll find were people linking active threads. They were deleted, and the thread remained open.

[The Great Escape]

26. But Why Can't Racism or Homophobia Be Pointed Out In Real Time?

I do applaud you on keeping that best of thread going. It is excellent.

[bliss_eternal]

29. To my understanding...

...(and based on the rules of DU) if you post about a thread in a sub-forum, it can't be active. Because you could be "rallying the troops" to that thread (to attack, etc.)--that's frowned on, and will get a post locked in a heartbeat.

The purpose of creating that thread, (way back when) was to provide a place to vent about stuff after it was locked (which isn't the same as attempting to argue with someone about the issues while the thread is active). The thread was also created to examine attitudes that persist even in the democratic party, as well as to create a long-term archive, so no one could ever deny the existence of bigotry, homophobia, sexism, etc.

[Lithos]

48. Thanks

There was never a thought about not having them, just wanting them to be about the issues not having it be about members here on DU. Along this thought, if you feel a DU user is racist or homophobic, then please use the alert function as it helps us out tremendously by bringing it to our attention.

L-

[The Great Escape]

66. I Do Appreciate Your Response...

however, it has been my experience that the alert function system does not always work. Last week, during the West Virginia bash fest, post after post remained. The vast majority clearly violated DU's rules regarding denigrating specific regions of the country. Of course my post pointing out the anti-Appalachian sentiment was locked as flame bait. It seems that there is no refuge on this site for a gay Appalachian.

[dsc]

27. I thank you for your help

but I admit to being confused. This mod locked your first thread stating that the discussions were old and you needed a fresh thread which appears to be 180 degrees from what is being said now.

[bliss_eternal]

30. I'm sorry...

...I understand your confusion. I apologize for not being clear (and a bit confused myself :P)

What the mod stated, was the reason the thread was originally locked.

My comments was to affirm you were correct here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=74503&mesg_id=74517

I insisted that people abide by the rule to not link to active threads. That's what kept the thread going, until it outgrew it's capacity to be usable(and starting a new thread was suggested by the moderator).

Sorry--edited for clarity. :hi:

[Lithos]

43. You can post on archived threads

There is no problem with that.

L-

[LeftCoast]

18. On the issue of 'calling out' and 'best of' threads

I believe there is a substantive difference between 'calling out' and what we have had with the 'best of' threads. Calling out refers to a person, usually for the purpose of continuing a personality conflict. The 'best of' threads address issues and specific comments and call attention to what the poster feels is homophobic.

This practice of addressing homophobia directly and calling for group scrutiny has a long history in the gay liberation movement because it works. Since we've had these threads, I have noticed a drop in the level of anti-gay comments because now people see these comments and rebut them. People learn from this and homophobia is pushed back a little bit more.

[bliss_eternal]

23. Please don't give up on the Best of threads...

Though I'm not all that active (on DU or in the Best of threads I started) as I once was, I did help to keep them going for some time. Anyone that wants to know HOW, please get in touch with me.

I was really excited to see a Best of thread in GLBT. It was long overdue in my opinion.

It can be a great resource (to anyone saying homophobia doesn't exist on DU), you have a place to send them to see it. (You don't have to violate the rules by linking old threads in active GD, GDP, etc. to make your point).

It's a place to discuss an issue more fully. Sometimes threads get too hot and are locked, BEFORE an issue was fully explored from the other side. A Best of Thread allows for that (as long as you take a few precautions ;) ).

Again, I helped keep that thread going for over a year. If it can be done in AA forum, it can be done here, too. Just ask me how, I'm happy to help with this!

[Zuiderelle]

33. Those threads have been the most informative in this forum in exposing homophobia.

It's so incredibly important for us to be able to converse about obvious homophobia, whether archived or current. These "Best Of" threads have been a real eye-opener to me in the amount of homophobic sentiment there is here, and it's very obvious that it's helpful to point it out, so that it can be defended against.

I really don't understand the need to prohibit these, if that's what you are saying is being done. I do understand if the OP of the thread itself is directly violating rules in calling someone out, that that thread might need to get locked, but if the OP is simply the topic starter and contains no links or callouts, you could simply delete any offending posts, while still allowing an avenue for us to educate and enlighten each other, in whatever way possible without violating any rules.

Please do not take this away from us. It has been a very unifying and empowering vehicle, and I would hate to see it disallowed.

[Lithos]

38. Best of Threads are not prohibited

But, like any other thread, they must conform to the existing DU rules for civility and content. Please see the rules here. If you feel there are threads inside of DU which are homophobic, or which are discriminatory particularly when it concerns itself with a particular user , then instead of posting here and griping, please be constructive and use the alert function. Not only does this follow appropriate procedure, it makes it possible for us as moderators to actually do something.

That is all that is being said. There are NO new rules changes, just after several PM's just wanting to make sure people understood why we locked that one particular thread.

L-

[Solon]

41. "...we locked that one particular thread." No, 2 threads were locked, and one didn't violate...

the rules as you laid them out.

[Lithos]

46. Threads 2 & 3

Were both locked for being inflammatory. Thread 1 probably should have been, and I have locked it now. I have also asked that people post here in this thread.

Again, "Best Of" threads are NOT prohibited. You CAN refer to archived content. But, in a nutshell, what we're asking is for people to stick to the issues and avoid making negative or inflammatory comments, particularly about other members. If you feel someone has crossed the line, then PLEASE use the alert function.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Solon]

49. Again, what made them inflammatory?

I reviewed a comparison of both the Best of threads here and the ones in the African American issues group, and the only major difference I can see is that the GLBT threads linked to some active threads. Even the other mod in this thread said that wasn't against the rules, and the content of 90% of the posts on the Best of threads in both groups were, more or less, damned near exact. Usually just a link without comment, or comments like "unbelievable" or quoting from posts. Most posters avoided mentioning names, and the threads here had no flamewars.

[Lithos]

52. I see some major differences

Primarily the AA "Best Of" threads seems to have benefited from the work of two users, "Lurking_Argyle" and "bliss_eternal", who have done an excellent job of organizing and posting threads in a way which talks about the overall (meta) issue involved. They generally avoid off-hand remarks which deal with the users, but rather talk about the over-arching issue at hand.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Solon]

53. They have made many comments about users in both of those threads...

including quotes, rolling eyes emoticons, etc. I really don't see how that is different from the threads here in this forum. The only other major difference is that they linked to posts that sank because of lack of interest in pointing out racism. But as far as comments, snide or otherwise, that thread is full of them. I don't see that much of a difference between that and the "Best of..." threads here, possibly excepting number 3 here, because of its OP.

If you wish, I could link to specific posts within that thread, with comparisons to the locked threads here in this forum, for comparison purposes.

ON EDIT: I noticed that even you commented in the first "Best of..." thread here in the GLBT forum, and neither locked it nor mentioned it was inappropriate. What changed?

[Lithos]

55. Again

They generally talk about the subject at hand and not the poster. It is okay to "roll your eyes" or make snide comments about stereotypes - that is one of the main purposes behind the "Best Of" threads. But it is not okay to talk about users being batshit crazy, homophobic or bigoted.

L-

[Solon]

58. But calling them moral relativists, ignorant, clueless, vile, etc. is acceptable?

Can you please tell me which insults are acceptable to use? Just so we would have a guideline so we aren't in danger of having an entire thread locked for a few posters' comments. Like I said before, all I'm asking for is consistency, and I don't see it.

When someone in the "Best of..." thread over in the African-American Issues group talks about the clueless taking over the thread, and being defensive, how is that any different from us mentioning the same about a thread mentioning gay issues?

Both are about posters, and poster's attitudes, specifically, yet one can be commented on, and the other cannot be commented on. Why is that?

[Lithos]

60. There is a huge difference

Between calling someone, or a group, "clueless" and "defensive" versus calling them "bigots".

L-

[Solon]

62. Well, there are some posts referring to "closet racists"...

but THAT'S different, right? :eyes:

[dsc]

71. Is he going to get an answer

[Chovexani]

72. I doubt it.

[Duncan Grant]

101. I'll take "institutionalized homophobia" for $500, Alex.

I was looking forward to reading the answer to your question. I re-read the thread in the other forum just to make sure that the inconsistency was really there (and it is).

While you're waiting for an answer, let me offer my own explanation. Simply put, America (and DU) is comfortable with the status quo. They support the inequality of LGBT people -- therefore, they're not in any big hurry to end (homophobic) bigotry. On the other hand, social sanctions are encouraged (rightfully so) against racists/racism.

And that's why you can call someone a closet racist but not a (homophobic) bigot at DU.

[LostinVA]

74. If someone says something horribly homophobic or bigoted, we're not allowed to call them a bigot?

[Zuiderelle]

76. You've locked them ALL now??

Why on earth? Why not just delete offending posts?

[racaulk]

113. "...instead of posting here and griping, please be constructive and use the alert function."

There are several things wrong with this statement.

1. You're apparently under the assumption that "posting here and griping" is not constructive, but I would argue that it is. All of us here share similar struggles, disappointments, and fears in our lives, and being able to share and discuss bigotry that is directed at all of us helps to make us stronger by sharing those commonalities that bind us. A lot of GLBT persons have "families of choice" in real life that serve as our support networks. Why can't we have the same here?

I don't think you would disagree that there is a great community of intelligent people in this forum. If all of these thoughtful and intelligent people thought these threads were a nonconstructive waste of time, then why do you think those threads are among the most popular here?

2. You're apparently also under the assumption that using the alert function is constructive. My experience has been that is not the case, as some of the most offensive posts remain intact after countless alerts and the people who make those posts go by unscathed.

3. One heterosexual DUer in this thread mentioned that she found those threads to be educational as they helped her to gain a greater awareness of our plight and the bigotry we face. This is another example where those threads served a constructive purpose. Why does DU exist if not to educate people?

4. Please don't assume also that we're just here "griping" and not attempting to follow the appropriate procedure, as flawed as it can be at times. Trust me, it takes a lot to offend me, but if I find something so offensive that I would post about it in one of the "Best of DU" threads, you can bet your bottom dollar that I've already alerted on it. And I can't imagine that I'm alone on this point.

[TechBear_Seattle]

89. I think that is the whole point: Mods do not want us pointing out homophobia

It is impossible to point out where SomePerson is being a bigot and excreting homophobic comments without calling them out. It is against the rules to call people out. Therefore, pointing out where SomePerson is being a bigot and excreting homophobic comments is against the rules, QED.

I have absolutely no doubt that if we could look at the list of those who have complain, it would show only recognized bigots. Sadly, those people make up the bulk of the Democratic Party rank and file.

[Zuiderelle]

94. Then as a substitute, maybe DU should start deleting homophobic posts instead.

But that won't happen. They'll just delete the ones we complain about the most, but the ones we don't see will go untouched. That's the whole problem. We don't see them. But a lot of people do.

[Chovexani]

64. Never mind.

If somebody wants to talk, PM me. I'm kind of tired of wasting my time here.

[Jamastiene]

68. This is the kind of overall feeling of helplessness we feel in general

when being discriminated against in life. If the rules are going to be applied unevenly, then of course, people are going to be upset about it. When you hear one member crying foul, chances are, it could be the heat of the moment and not necessarily true. When you hear a chorus of voices crying foul, saying you are applying the rules unevenly, chances are, you really are. Therein lies the problem. Watch the Exodus continue. The DU dream is dead.

[bliss_eternal]

70. I think I understand...

(sigh)...the whole thing makes me feel awful. I'd like to see this continue here. :(
It's rare I'm around. I came in (seeing threads locked) and posted in response to this. I see now how totally clueless I was to the whole situation. For that I'm sorry.

I'm leaving now (again). So sorry for my earlier cluelessness (upthread).
best to all.

[MuseRider]

77. This makes me so sad.

The topic is sad but what makes me even sadder is the loss of so many of you. I consider you all friends and truly miss those that are gone.

To the topic, there are many of us who are trying our best to right the wrongs who are straight citizens. It is often hard to understand exactly the issues being that we are not the issue or in the group, just the help :) trying to make it so we can all be one big happy group of humans. These threads have been so very important for me to learn more about how things are perceived and felt so that I can better address them in my situation. I hate that these threads are going to stop now and then that more of you will leave.

If anyone leaves and would like to keep in touch please PM me. You are all valued friends and teachers.

[queerart]

69. I Say "KUDOS" To Those With A Militant Heterosexual Agenda!

I don't often have the chance to give such group a thumbs up "Congratulations"...... But this opportunity has presented it's self.....


So I Say Congrats Folks!.............


When you are able to stop the discussion about Homophobia, and Bigoted statements (eg)(But it is not okay to talk about users being batshit crazy, homophobic or bigoted)........ on a Democratic site, in the Queer posting area no less..... that is pretty damn impressive.... and I say that honestly, and with no malice......


Each day brings victory for one of us: (Gays/Haters)... and today is a victory for your side.......


I'm guessing there is a wish for the 1950's to return whereas it's Ok, and perfectly understandable that people hate Queers...... However it's "ugly", and "impolite" to bring that topic up at the table..... as "polite society" just doesn't talk about such ugly things.....


We shall instead only speak of how cheerfully sunny it is, while trying to name every songbird that is chirping in the garden as we plant Sunflowers.......


I'm not looking for a reply from anyone..... Just giving the folks with a Militant Heterosexual Agenda their due respect:thumbsup:......

[jumptheshadow]

73. I am confused

I consider myself a DU "moderate" and I have seen a trend towards more openly expressed homophobia on DU. I alert whenever possible, and have had a swift and positive response from the moderators. However, I believe the "Best Of" threads on this forum are very important above and beyond individual posts that get deleted in other forums. These threads are key to highlighting general trends on DU, as well as discussing specific topics that are sensitive to particular groups within our community. Even when the threads are emotional, frustrated or downright negative, and even when I don't necessarily agree with individual posts on the LGBT "Best Of" threads, I feel a kinship to and support for the posters.

I guess I don't know now whether we can discuss homophobia on DU in these threads. While the rules are individually clear the situation seems nebulous.

By the way, some of the recent homophobic posts have been crass enough to lead me to believe that DU is being "played" by Republican operatives. They hide here in their sheep skins, but can't help but reveal their bigotry while trying to pit us against each other.

[Bluenorthwest]

75. Selective enforcement of rules is always unjust

And this is selective. Every thread I read on DU of late contains 'you are a racist' 'you are not a Democrat' and all sorts of nastiness. It is constant violation of the so called 'rules' of DU. Constant violation. Unless one is gay, there are no rules.
The new rule seems to be that we can not complain about open and active bigotry? But other minority groups can?
Upthread there is a note from the mod about some words that can not be used, this man needs to post a list. And I think there is one list for hate filled heteros and another for those who stand up against them. The words he listed are used constantly, all day, all over DU. With impunity. So I guess it is like this: no rules for straights, all rules for GLBT people.
This is rotten.

[meegbear]

78. Thank you for deciding that for us ...

us faggots will shut up now and go away.

[Maven]

79. Ya know what? This is bullshit, and it makes me glad I didn't donate this quarter.

Let's go beyond the selective enforcement of rules, which shows very clearly that racism is taken seriously here and homophobia is not.

Alerting on specific posts and letting them disappear into the memory hole (after, that is, the mods get to them and if they're actually deleted) simply isn't cutting it anymore, because there is a pattern of behavior that needs to be exposed. Part of the reason that pattern has flourished is that whereas posters who make racist comments (or even vote in racist polls!) are immediately banned whereas longtime, repeat offenders who make homophobic remarks are allowed to stay. Hence, we have a growing contingent of posters who are hostile to our rights and who are encouraged to continue because they keep getting away with it.

And your solution is to lock GLBT "best of" threads instead?

[ronnykmarshall]

80. I'm with Hedy on this!!

[Duncan Grant]

81. Nail meet hammer. Every LGBT person in this forum needs to understand this.

Perfectly summarized, Harvey. :thumbsup:

[flvegan]

109. Straights too, homeboy.

:thumbsup:

[racaulk]

84. I agree 100%!

This selective enforcement of the rules does nothing but embolden and empower those on the offensive, and makes those of us on the defensive weaker by making our communications with each other more difficult.

Excellent reply, Harvey! :thumbsup:

[lightningandsnow]

86. "Racism is taken seriously and homophobia is not"?

Oh, please.

Look at any thread on white privilege and you'll see that racism is considered pretty acceptable here.

Racism and homophobia: both shitty, and somehow, both oddly socially acceptable.

Can we stop it with the oppression olympics, please?

(By the way, I don't think the LGBT best of thread should have been locked. Not at all. Homophobes and transphobes need to be called on their bullshit.)

[racaulk]

87. I'm not sure Harvey was referring to DU in general.

Considering that the phrase you quoted was included in a sentence talking about rules enforcement, I think that he was referring to the mods specifically and not DU on the whole. I think that phrase was meant as "racism is taken seriously (by the mods) and homophobia is not." That's the way I read it, at least...

Consider this:

A while back someone made a racist OP and four people recommended the thread. Not only was the OP tombstoned, but so were the four others that rec'd the thread. No warning, no second chances; they were just gone faster than they could snap their fingers for something they thought they did anonymously.

On the other hand, I've seen one poster repeatedly and openly make outrageously transphobic remarks, and as far as I can tell, didn't receive so much as a slap on the wrist for doing so.

I don't see this as a case of "oppression olympics," but it does seem that the mods have a much lower tolerance level for racism than they do for homophobia and transphobia. I don't mean to call the mods out here, that's just my personal observation.

You're right about one thing, though. Racism and homophobia are both wrong, they both exist in this community, and we have a duty to call them both out when we see them. It just seems like the process for calling out homophobia was just made a little more difficult.

[Solon]

88. It was a poll, rather than recommendations, but other than that, I agree with you...

about the inconsistent way the rules are enforced.

[racaulk]

111. Oh yes, that's right!

You are correct, it was a poll. Thanks for the correction! :hi:

But it is funny, isn't it? You can get tombstoned for an anonymous racist action, but if you're openly homophobic or transphobic, even here in the GLBT forum, nothing happens to you.

Funny that. And we're told the rules are being fairly applied. Riiiiight... :eyes:

[Duncan Grant]

95. Not to mention the more insidious examples of homophobia that are tolerated here at DU.

Just last week, in discussions about the gay marriage ruling in California, I read posts calling LGBT people selfish for bringing the issue up at this time. I saw another post where someone asserted that "marriage IS between a man and a woman".

Others compose alarms about how the Supreme Court or the environment -- or even the economy -- is in jeopardy, all because of gay people. And perhaps the most insidious of all: "get over it" and "you need to get a sense of humor".

I can't help but wonder how DU mods and Admin would respond to comments like the above if they were addressing the lives of people of color. I suspect it would be different - very different.

It seems to me this should be about context and not how LGBT people are breaking "the rules" in this forum.

[Maven]

100. Indeed, that's what I meant.

Thanks. :hi:

[NorthernSpy]

121. It was my poll, and that's not what happened.

Another DUer -- not me -- compared black Christians to "dogshit".

So I linked to his message, and started a poll: "are black Christians dogshit?"

Several people voted yes. My poll got locked. They got tombstoned. Fine with me.


But: the guy who originally made the dogshit remark is still here. His post was deleted, but that's it.


All that happened because I decided to be an un-ignorable pest and drag a racist post out into the open where no one could pretend they didn't see it. That's why you saw public action taken in that case.

[Zuiderelle]

97. Using a phrase like "oppression olympics" is not helpful at all.

Racism IS less tolerated here than homophobia. For you to pretend that it's some sort of olympics to claim so is quite insulting.

[TechBear_Seattle]

90. Bingo.

Gay people are the villans. Always. Our calls for justice and equality are annoying distractions; when our calls become demands, then we are ordered to shut up.

[NorthernSpy]

120. Wrong. The guy who called black Christians "dogshit" is still here.

So is another guy who said that science would soon prove that blacks are inferior to whites.

So is one fellow who deemed African American culture "lousy", and another who wondered whether it was time to put blacks on reservations.


You see, I make a point of noticing this stuff. You don't, which is why you say things like this:

Let's go beyond the selective enforcement of rules, which shows very clearly that racism is taken seriously here and homophobia is not.

Alerting on specific posts and letting them disappear into the memory hole (after, that is, the mods get to them and if they're actually deleted) simply isn't cutting it anymore, because there is a pattern of behavior that needs to be exposed. Part of the reason that pattern has flourished is that whereas posters who make racist comments (or even vote in racist polls!) are immediately banned whereas longtime, repeat offenders who make homophobic remarks are allowed to stay. Hence, we have a growing contingent of posters who are hostile to our rights and who are encouraged to continue because they keep getting away with it.

[Der Blaue Engel]

82. The New DU: Nothing but Strange Fruit

This is the last forum I've had any interest in posting in. The message that women and GLBTs aren't of value to DU or the party is coming in loud and clear.

[racaulk]

83. So I step away for the weekend, and come back to find THIS?

With all due respect, I understand the policies that the admins and mods have in place to alert on offending posts, but my experience has been that this process hardly ever works. I try my best to alert on posts that are especially egregious and offensive, but a lot of times those posts remain. For example:

As a gay person, I've seen someone reduce my entire existence and commitment to GLBT equality to being concerned for nothing more than my "personal life." I alerted, repeatedly. Nothing happened, and the post is still here.

I've seen one poster come here, to the GLBT forum no less, to repeatedly and outrageously demean and belittle transgendered persons and complain of the "parasitic way they have latched onto the gay-rights movement." To say that having sex reassignment surgery is nothing more than a "vanity project." I alerted, as did many others. Nothing happened, and his/her posts are still here.

I've seen someone start an OP to say that Reagan's legacy on AIDS is not relevant. I alerted. The thread was locked, sure, but the OP is still there for the world to see.

I could go on and on, but I feel I'm already on the verge of calling out other DUers on their bigotry. And based on the logic of your OP and subsequent replies, that would get this entire thread locked.

I am deeply hurt and offended by this decision, and it appears by the look of this thread that I am not the only one. By taking this action you have not done anything to rid this discussion forum of homophobia. You have just made it more difficult for it to be discussed openly among ourselves, in what appears to be a weak attempt to sweep it under the proverbial rug.

It used to be that GLBT and the Lounge were the two forums on this website where I felt safe. Where I felt like I could post whatever I wanted without repeatedly proofreading my posts before making them for fear of being flamed to Hell and back for getting one word wrong. Where I could say whatever was on my mind, safely, and still receive support from others in the same boat. It appears that one of my safe havens is now gone.

I'm now glad that I decided not to donate to DU this quarter, and as long as this decision stands, I doubt that I ever will again.

[SacredCow]

85. I'm feeling much of the same frustration....

And on the hunt for a more progressive board...

[LeftCoast]

92. Am I the only one who is getting more angry the longer this is 'discussed'?

This is a sick joke.

[Zuiderelle]

93. Nope. Not the only one.

[Creideiki]

96. Not having fun right now

Don't even know how to post to this thread.

[Duncan Grant]

98. Nope and I'm waiting for an even larger crack down on this forum.

The leadership of DU made a terrible judgment call by locking those threads and in order to save themselves further embarrassment -- they'll either crack down harder or ignore us.

What we won't see is a discussion about the context of "The Best of DU..." threads:

Why did the threads exist in the first place?
Why were people responding to the threads so enthusiastically?
Are the threads needed or wanted?
Do the threads serve a legitimate purpose?
What are the best ways for DU to manage homophobia?
And so on...

That would be the preferable approach, if you ask me. This should be about context rather than the close-minded enforcement of rules. :hi:

[LeftCoast]

99. Yup. Nothing worse than a faggot that won't shut up.

This has been handed down from on high and our opinion doesn't seem to matter squat.

[Duncan Grant]

122. Now that it's Wednesday, it looks like we're going to be ignored.

A proclamation has been issued. Your feedback is not required.

I hope someone is planning to engage in a dialog with the LGBT people who post here. Someone? Anyone?

[jumptheshadow]

102. No

I felt quite angry earlier this evening. This is usually a well-run board, but I don't think the administrators see or understand our grievances here.

[Jamastiene]

104. What's so bad about it is that they are serious.

They are absolutely serious. They might as well have told us to STFU. I don't care how they worded it, because they still just basically told us to STFU.

[TechBear_Seattle]

107. You are seeing a discussion?

I'm seeing the mods -- actually, only one mod -- who has told us to stop bitching and moaning, which has only gotten GLBT members of DU even more pissed off than we were. The mod in question made a few defensive remarks early on, basically to tell us that this was the way it was going to be from now on.

I would hardly call any of this a discussion.

[LeftCoast]

108. I was being charitable...

:(

[racaulk]

112. Nope, you're not the only one.

At first I was disappointed. Now I'm furious.

[queerart]

103. Chris Matthews' Blog

I'm not a great fan of Chris Matthews, but I was reading a post here on DU from his blog in which a line struck me:


(Chris Matthews) Trying to silence criticism is the very opposite of democracy.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x360560


http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/19/1041446.aspx

[MuseRider]

105. I came back in here tonight

fully expecting that the mods or Skinner would have been striving to get involved in this discussion looking for ways to make this good. I am stunned frankly, that it has not been done. This is a significant slap in the face, not something that should wait until there is time. There are daily homophobic assaults it seems and they are not just little *wink wink* comments, they are comments that people here KNOW make others hurt and angry. This needs to be handled.

I would ask that the mods and the admins really give this some thought. I do not for one moment believe that the admins are homophobic but perhaps like many of us "breeders" they are just not getting it. I am not asking any of you to give anyone a break about this, just thinking out loud and speaking from my own learning experience and trying desperately to understand how something this hideous could continue without adequate response. This treatment by DU as a whole is one of the reasons I did not donate this time, that and the fact that I am increasingly feeling like my time here is not long anyway so I guess I can say whatever I want here now.

This needs to be fixed now, someone needs to come into this thread and tell us that it is being discussed and that the comments here are being taken to heart as something important. We could have open discussion and get this worked out if that would happen. God, this just makes me so sad and so mad and so frustrated and ashamed, just damned ashamed.

[LeftyMom]

106. Well, I'm horrified.

It's perfectly apparent to me that there's a hell of a lot of homophobic and especially transphobic bullshit that gets posted at DU.* Not talking about it isn't going to make it go away, and more importantly it's not going to change anybody's mind or heart.

*I know I've personally alerted a fuck of a lot of it, and I know a lot of it never went away, and most of the worst offenders are still here and posting. Most of it wasn't even slightly subtle or debatable. Whether or not the mods and admins want to hear it (hey, I know nobody likes to be criticized, but when this many people- good people who have contributed a lot- are criticizing you really do have to pay attention) there is a lot of work that needs to be done in making DU a more welcoming place for LGBT people.

[Lex]

110. Me too.

Damn.

[LeftCoast]

114. 48 hours of Admin silence speaks VOLUMES

Sure tells me a lot about how much they value the GLBT community...

[TechBear_Seattle]

115. They are beginning to realize that they need not "pander" to us homos

The only reason we get any positive attention at all is because the Democratic Party considers us a safe bet: Who else are we going to vote for, after all?

But right now, with Bush the most despised president since such poll questions were invented and the GOP in horrific disarray, the election is effectively in the bag for the Dems. As such, we are now being treated with the biennial "Your use has ended so fuck off" from the party. And it's not even Memorial Day!

[LeftCoast]

117. The ever-inconvenient minority

In politics as in DU, the attitude always seems to be 'it'd be better if we weren't here.'

[Book Lover]

116. As far as I can see, this function of this particular thread

is to allow us a owner-approved space where we can (ineffectively) complain about the double standard we are being held to. Clearly, no actions to address our concerns are planned. "PM us, Skinner or the other admins." Why? What good will it do? Am I going to go and ask to have my head patted, then be dismissed?

[papapi]

118. Really disappointed to read through this thread and realize what I've always...

...known was lurking is very, very true. This forum, just like the party, wishes to sideline the GLBT community fearing reprisal in the GE for supporting the 'outsiders'. The degenerate minorities they know they have in their back pockets. Well I'm sick and I'm tired of being thought of as degenerate, immoral, aberrant, or a host of other derogatory terms foisted on us by self righteous, holier than thou hypocrites. It's time to take a stand.

May I float a suggestion and solicit a response? Let's flood the General Discussion board with as many links about -phobes making news as we can find on the web. If we are vigilant and recommend them to keep them on top, it will begin to expose the hypocrisy of those that support us only when it seems convenient for them.

Thoughts?

[TechBear_Seattle]

119. It is not this forum, don't lay the blame on us

It is the moderators.

[Duncan Grant]

123. Let's just ask the mods and admin to have a zero tolerance policy on homophobic posts.

That's what I want. If a DU member posts homophobic comments here - they're tombstoned.

I think it would be a much more profitable business model myself.