Should we support wal-mart's quest to "support" us?

[Deja Q]

I just have to ask because I've been arguing with a right-wing nut (aged 23, go figure) on a different forum; trying to explain the difference between what real support and what cheap money-grabbing tactics are. (he's a rightie, surely you'd think he'd understand the difference between real and ersatz loyalty? Then again, probably not...)

[JuniperLea]

1. Do you really want to align yourself with those crooks? n/t

[Virginia Dare]

2. Americans need to take control of their own destiny...

and leave companies like Wal-Mart behind in the dust.

[peacebird]

3. wal*marts profits drop and suddenly they decide to go green & to "support"

GLBT community...
:wtf:
Hmmm - somehow I think their concern is more about the profit margin than the environment or equal rights for all....

of course perhaps I am merely cynical....

[snappyturtle]

5. Well then I'm cynical too!! nt

[peacebird]

7. hi SnappyTurtle!

:toast:

[snappyturtle]

8. Hi! back to you!

:toast:

[Xeric]

4. I can accept their "support"

and still criticize their terrible labor policies and their business tactics that destroy local stores, can't I?

[enuffs_enuffs]

6. I say keep on hammering them...

Let nothing stop the onslaught of bad press. Beat the hell out of them till their numbers force the banks to shut them down.

Then the next big box store start up will think just a tid bit more of business ethics... and may be even not puke when the term "common good" gets invoked. May be, just may be...

[NMMNG]

9. Screw Wal-mart

It's nothing more than pandering in an attempt to bring in a new market. What's more, as soon as the fundagelicals get wind of it they'll organize a mass boycott/e-mail campaign and within a few weeks Wal-mart will kowtow to them as every other business does. Does anybody think they want to lose their redneck fundie base for the sake of us? :eyes:

[the arkansas liberal]

10. W-M not so bad -- here are some facts

from a big homo working for them! At the Home Office, even -- right here in good old NW Arkansas.

There has been a big focus on LGBT at W-M in the past few years.

How many of you have been to an HRC black-tie dinner recently? W-M is sponsoring tables at some of the major Dinners.

How many of you are attending the Out&Equal Workplace Advocates Summit in Chicago next month? W-M has an ERG (Employee Resource Group)for LGBT and is hosting a plenary session at O&E next month. We will have a big presence and are presenting a workshop as well.

How many of you helped host the HRC, the Point Foundation, Out & Equal, Witeck-Combs (LGBT marketing firm)and other LGBT leadership execs at your places of business in the past year? During June (Gay Pride Month)we had openly Gay guests present LGBT topics such as "How to Market to Gay America." Marketing and Sales Executives were given up close information on the successful outreaches to our Community by Ford (Volvo), American Airlines, and others.

Lupe Valdez mesmerized a crowd with her story. Lupe is the openly Lesbian Sheriff of Dallas, TX, btw.

W-M recently stood up to a boycott threat by the AFA and prominently featured "Brokeback Mountain" in the front of the store when it was a new release. "BBM" is still in the racks, right up there with "Big Momma's House II" and "Crash." Oh, and I just bought "Queer Duck -the Movie" in the Electronics Department last week.

Of course things could be better -- let's face it, I want DPB's -- yet it has been exciting being a part of all the changes that have taken place! If and when DPB's are approved (yes, a business case has been presented)we will still be a hated place, and there will still be ways to make things better, but I challenge anyone to name a perfect employer.

Listen -- everyone has a right to express themselves: God knows I would never want to censor anyone nor be censored, but do your research as well. W-M's HRC score has risen dramatically over the past few years and I'll bet it continues to do so.

Bottom line: If you don't like W-M, don't shop there. If you believe what you read about the employment practices, don't work there.

Keep up the pressure if you like, that's fine. BUT - remember our policies and practices are becoming increasingly Gay-friendly.

I simply thought it would be nice to give you a view from the inside!

[enuffs_enuffs]

11. If only it was the LGBT issue...

That is only part of an overall dislike of WM and it's policies in general. As well, it seems to me that the supposed anti-LGBT stance was really about maintaining market share... of the religious fundies who cotton to that sort of mindset.

A fair wage, allowing labor to organize and issues as such are my main concerns.

[the arkansas liberal]

14. Define Fair Wage

Also please define "living wage." Really, whose life? Fair to whom? Who sets the standard, and what is it? I really don't know -- I'm not a labor expert (duh, did I mention my place of employment?). How much more should a cashier in Chicago make (if at all) than a cashier in, say, Gotebo, Oklahoma? Are all the W-M employees wrong to work there? Has any one of you spoken with a currently employed W-M worker to discuss this? Also, what is the starting wage at Target? Lowe's? The Home Depot? Sears/K-Mart? Is it higher than Wal-Mart's? Are these companies' employees organized? I never, ever read anything about them, so can someone let me know? Also, since this is the LGBT forum, if you answer these questions please look up those companies' HRC scores and include them in your reply. Please educate this openly happy Wal-Mart worker. I could research all this myself but hey -- I'm not the one complaining!

[enuffs_enuffs]

17. If your not complaining, why ask?

I guess that you'd prefer that WM continue to pay the "peons" at a wage that requires living assistance from the state... as it does in many areas. May be your not bothered by WM bidnezz habits, perhaps you benefit from the corp culture, perhaps you like the status quo... many don't... and are vocal about it. Perhaps... but as you aren't complaining and probably not interested... why bother?

[Touchdown]

25. The AFL-CIO has supported GLBT causes for 20+ years.

Need I really ask how W-M supports the efforts of the AFL-CIO for liveable wages and affordable health care? I didn't think so.;)

[purduejake]

26. This coming from the W-M war room?

I see you're new here and are supporting a horrible company - that still treats it's employees worse than most. Sorry, but I can't help but wonder.

[Deja Q]

31. Could be a coincidence,

but then, he thought it would be nice to give us me a rundown from the "inside".

Never mind I've never really put pressure on anybody to do anything... so why he assumes something else, I dunno. I only talk with people online; I gave up on petitions long ago.

[Deja Q]

30. Couldn't even get inside.

Before they have a human talk to a candidate for a position, the candidate is screened by some myopic computer profiling test.

Never mind their business history, which is very predatory.

I'll shop there if I have to, but I'm not particularly fond of them.

Glad you're on the inside. That's not going to be your career, I hope? It might be, if people keep supporting these giant corporations, who effectively bribe for special favors; most of which seem to be revolving around the decimation of the middle and working class. (the problem with seeing things from the inside is that you're blinded from the outside...)

[Meeker Morgan]

12. Just because they are capitalist pigs and all that ...

... doesn't mean that they are insincere about gays.

We may well have a paisan or two in their boardroom.

There's no logical connection between Rupublican economics and Republican social policies. That's just coalition politics.

Used to be "New Deal" appealed to fundamentalists, and Republicans were more libertarian.

[Deja Q]

32. Very true.

It just seems hard to believe; the discontinuity between one form of human rights and another.

But it is a realistic possibility.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

13. No.

Never.

[cboy4]

15. Absolutely. I'm going to support Wal-Mart the day hell freezes over and

I picket with those "charming" Phelps lunatics!

[the arkansas liberal]

16. Wal-Mart announces a gay-friendly partnership

and you respond with photos of the Phelps crew? If you choose not to consider a company might recognize the value in being more progressive and try to move forward in social and not just economic areas that is your right -- I think W-M will survive -- but it is unfortunate that we (LGBT folks) who are targets of the wing-nuts and crazies who only know what they read in their Bibles and church bulletins will make judgments and discriminate based upon...what we read in the papers and hear from our politically ambitious 'friends.' I am a liberal Democrat down to my Kenneth Coles yet I try to listen to both sides of an issue before rushing to parrot the views of others! My challenge -- hit Wal-Mart this weekend (you can scrub up afterward) and ask some of the workers what they think. Post some of the responses. Go to walmartfacts.com and check out some of the stories and press releases. I am not trying to get you to change your mind -- just to hear what people who are actually involved with the company are thinking.

I notice, btw, that Phelps is quoting from Romans, Chapter 9 on one of his signs. I guess he skipped Romans, Chapter 8, verses 38-39. Must have, because those verses would make him fold his tent and take off. Or not. It doesn't appear that actual Scripture means much to this whacko...

[BR_Parkway]

18. I"m glad that Wal-Mart (or any other company) is making progress in

including everyone, not just certain groups.

That said, I still won't shop there for the same 2 reasons I stopped shopping there years ago. 1) The drive for cheapest prices/products and the amount of imported products they sell and 2) I don't support any business that has a centralized HQ somewhere outside my community that it funnels the profits to. I support local businesses to maintain a sustainable community - which Wal-Mart and all the other Big Boxes can not do, regardless of what other progressive ideals they adopt.

[cboy4]

19. I don't trust Wal-Mart's intentions for a second. I don't think there's

a thing they wouldn't do to earn a few more bucks, and that includes pretending to be gay friendly to attract gay customers.

If you haven't done so, I'd suggest reading the disturbing 3-part Wal-Mart series from the Los Angeles Times called, "The Wal-Mart Effect."

You'll quickly understand why tragically, the company can sell some of its merchandise so cheaply at the expense of human beings in sweat shops.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-walmart-sg,1,1534896.storygallery

Quote from a sweat shop worker:

There is always an acceleration," said Reyes, 37, who can't lift a cooking pot or hold her infant daughter without the anti-inflammatory pills she gulps down every few hours. "The goals are always increasing, but the pay stays the same."

Reyes, who earns the equivalent of $35 a week, says her bosses blame the long hours and low wages on big U.S. companies and their demands for ever-cheaper merchandise. Wal-Mart, the biggest company of them all, is the Cosmos factory's main customer. :mad:

First of Three Parts
An Empire Built on Bargains Remakes the Working World

Second of Three Parts
Scouring the Globe to Give Shoppers an $8.63 Polo Shirt

Third of three parts
Grocery Unions Battle to Stop Invasion of the Giant Stores


And my point with the Phelps photos is simply this: it will take something ultra-extreme to get me to support Wal-Mart's business practices.

For a gay person (at least for myself), I can't think of anything more ultra-extreme than Phelps and his godhatesfags "crew."



***Finally, as far as the bible verses go...I don't care about any of that.

Phelps is going to cite whatever he feels the bible should say.

He's is the equivalent of the nut standing on the sidewalk completely convinced that the sky is orange, yet there's nothing anyone can say or do to change his mind.

Why waste one's time? I know I don't!

[the arkansas liberal]

20. Since we are quoting news articles

and websites, check this one out:

http://www.nwaonline.net/articles/2006/08/23/business/0823wmgays.txt

It is the local paper and the responses to W-M's announcement. Do you really believe the company was only out to make a buck, knowing the type of reaction any gay-friendly announcement was going to cause? The wing-nuts really do crawl out of their holes when we gays make the news. I especially like the one where they plan to remove all children from single-parent households and place them in good, two-parent Christian homes, like God intended. Right -- kidnapping children is right up there with the whole God-thing. Hey, what if the household is single-parent because the Godly wife was killed by a marauding band of raging homosexuals intent on recruiting her husband to their fold? Does that guy get a bye 'cause his wife died defending God and Family? Reminds me of the early days when they only cared about people who contracted AIDS the 'right' way -- that is, 'innocently' from blood transfusions, rape, or birth....

W-M Suppliers sign contracts every day, knowing and agreeing to human rights issues. The company will not knowingly buy from suppliers whose practices do not meet with set standards. If you believe this is happening, you may contact the Office of Ethics, the Office of Compliance, or any other representative to discuss this. Just call 800- Wal-Mart. I'd like to know what you find out! Meanwhile, I'm going to check out some facts on the article you provided.

[cboy4]

21. Lets give it some time. There are those, including myself, who feel

Wal-Mart will give in to fundy complaints and reverse its decision -- especially if the religious nuts start picketing/protesting in front of Wal-Mart stores.

So any praise my be premature and eventually mute.

But yea, read those L.A. Times stories.

I'll be curious to hear what you have to say.

[the arkansas liberal]

22. Sure will ~

btw -- we HAVE had the fundies picket. Also, Phelps and his ilk threatened a picket at John Walton's funeral last year (John was a son of the founder). Turns out Phelps was unhappy with W-M's pro-gay stance! It did not happen. We also get all kinds of protesters during our Annual Meeting in June. Never a dull moment, i tell you.

Hope someone will read one of my earlier posts and do a little digging about the other companies and their information. And cboy4 -- may I ask what state you live in? I'd like to check into what w-m's impact is on your economy. State only: no city, etc. needed! I too think it is important to give locally and support community businesses. You may be surprised....

Well, must get back to work. Today is our bi-weekly LGBT Associate Resource Group meeting. Ironic, huh?

[cboy4]

23. Yea, I live in California (click on the white index card icon and you can

read people's profiles)....just FYI!

Interesting info. about John Walton's funeral......but if you ask me, Phelps and his ilk would find a way to picket God's funeral....if God were in a position to have a funeral. ;)

Get back to work!

[the arkansas liberal]

24. interview with Wal-Mart

regarding this very subject.

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/shared/money/stories/coxnews/WALMART_GAY24_COX_W6331.html


Justin Nelson, co-founder and president of the four-year-old gay business coalition (the NGLCC), said he was certain that objections from conservatives would not cause Wal-Mart, headquartered in Bentonville, Ark., to back away from his organization.

Wal-Mart initiated the partnership, he said, and "it's a rock-solid relationship."

In recent months, as his group and Wal-Mart have discussed their possible relationship, "it was brought up that religious zealots would make these hateful comments," he said. Wal-Mart executives persuaded chamber officials they would remain resolute, he said.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Anywho -- here is info for California:

People
As of August 2006, the total number of Wal-Mart associates in California is 70,349.
The average wage for regular, full-time hourly associates in California is $10.50 per hour (Wal-Mart Discount Stores, Supercenters, and Neighborhood Markets). Additionally, associates are eligible for performance-based bonuses.
In recent years, Wal-Mart has contributed four percent of an associate's eligible pay to their combined Profit Sharing and 401(k) Plan. NOTE from Alex : this requires NO participation from Associates. It is an automatic contribution. Long -term Associates have retired with tons o' money in their profit sharing accounts. I have seen - and coveted - their statements!

Suppliers
In FYE 2006, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc spent for merchandise and services with 3,929 in the state of California. As a result of Wal-Mart's relationship with these suppliers, Wal-Mart supports 248,027 supplier jobs in the state of California.

Supplier figures provided by Dun & Bradstreet.

Taxes and Fees
Wal-Mart collected on behalf of the state of California more than $783.4 million in sales taxes in FYE 2006.
Wal-Mart paid more than $139.7 million in state and local taxes in the state of California in FYE 2006.

Community Involvement
In 2005, Wal-Mart Stores and SAM'S CLUB gave $9,371,810 in cash and in-kind donations to local causes and organizations in the communities they serve in the state of California. Through additional funds raised through stores and Clubs throughout the state, Wal-Mart contributed and raised a grand total of $13,229,876 as a result of its presence in California.

"At Wal-Mart, we believe in a philosophy of operating globally and giving back locally. We know we can make the greatest impact on communities by supporting causes that are important to our customers and associates right in their own neighborhoods. That’s why we make the majority of our charitable donations at the local level.

Having given more than $245 million to charity last year, Wal-Mart is proud to have been named by the Chronicle of Philanthropy as the largest corporate cash donor in America. As is the Wal-Mart Foundation’s motto: We believe good… works. " from a Corporate Statement...

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Again -- not trying to get anyone to change opinions...simply offering information from one openly gay -- WAY openly gay -- man who is in a position to see both sides of the story!

[purduejake]

27. Somebody's drinking the kool-aid!

Perhaps the employees are AFRAID to speak out against their employer while at work. Who wouldn't?

By the way, what do you do? Are you a bagger or a cart retriever making $6 an hour or are you making $20 or more working for headquarters? You seem pretty well educated by the way you write, so I suspect you're not on the floor.

[the arkansas liberal]

28. Love it!

I actually wondered how long it would take for someone to ask if I were drinking the Kool-Aid! Not really -- the way I recall, those in Guyana were FORCED to drink the stuff, so the whole "someone is drinking the Kool-Aid" really does not apply. Last I checked, no one is forced to work at Wal-Mart. No one is forced to shop there.

I concede your point: people may not feel comfortable telling you their true feelings while on the job. This tells me you probably don't know any W-M workers personally, so what you are doing is either repeating what someone else has said or making assumptions. Nothing wrong with that, but that forces you to go online to learn anything. walmartfacts.com adn walmartstores.com are sites run by the company. wakeupwalmart.com is the union-funded site that is pretty much a basher of W-M, and there is probably a walmartsucks.com as well. you can get a good feel for what many have to say. Unfortuanately there is also godhatesfags.com and tons of other sh*tty sites, as we all know, so that tells you just how much stock to put into ANY internet chat.

Yes, I make a good living at the Home Office, and I worked my butt off in school and for other companies before I came to Arkansas, but I make nowhere near what a store manager makes. And all around me are people who DID start out on the floor of a store. One of my closest friends and peers is a woman a few years younger than I. She has no college and is a single parent. She started out with the company while in high school and worked her way up to a position where she is responsible for the activities of about 40 people. There are all kinds of stories like this. And since about 3/4 of all our managers have risen from the hourly ranks there is a lot of opportunity. Case in point: the President of Sam's Club - who is younger than I - started out pushing carts for a store while he was going to school. Now he's running the company.

Wal-Mart does not have 'baggers' as a job description (at least as far as I know) but what a cart pusher makes -- is it $6.oo per hour? I know that is more than the minimum wage, and they get a discount every time they or a member of their family (and no, W-M does not recognize domestic partners as family, but stick around -- I think it is coming sooner rather than later) shop at the store. The discount is the same for everyone - cart pusher to CEO, by the way.

Anyway, isn't 'cart pusher' an entry-level position? How much should s/he be paid? It is a tough job to be sure -and the Sam's cart guys in the college town close to me are something to see, let me tell you. Hey, this IS the LGBT forum, isn't it???- yet what is a fair wage for this job? The high school girl pushing carts -- should she be paid less than the married father of two who is pushing carts? I'll bet the father needs a hell of a lot more money than the high schooler, but they are doing the same job. Both have chosen to work at Wal-Mart. And both are free to assess their financial situations and seek employment elsewhere.


My first job was McDonald's (minimum wage). My second job was Montgomery Ward (yep, I am dating myself -- but minimum wage there as well). I was in college at the time. Then I went to work for a hardware store, like a Lowe's or Home Depot type of place. I made 20 cents OVER minimum wage. ANd not a one of those jobs offered my any insurance. My point is -- why is W-M so vilified for its wage/benefit structure? It is not the best job in the world, for sure. Let's hear some talk about the other retailers who are no better than W-M. Why do they get a free ride while W-M gets thrown under the bus?

[purduejake]

29. Thought so.

I do know somebody who works at Wal-Mart and hates it - believe it or not! And congrats on working at Home Office - I suspected we wouldn't find any cashers or shelf-stockers raving about how great it is to work for W-M.

And no, $6 is not more than minimum wage in many places throughout the country and no, you can't really live on that without GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE. That means we the people have to subsidize W-M so it can make billions every year.

Nobody is suggesting that anybody should make more based on their family status - but you should be able to afford housing, food, clothes, and medical care no matter where you work. You can't do that on $6 an hour, can you? If you can, let me know how.

And this BS about choosing to work at Wal-Mart... this is where the Company really takes advantage of the poor. They really don't have much of a choice - they have to work for whatever money they can get and W-M knows it and therefore pays nearly min. wage.

W-M is so villified because it makes HUGE PROFITS off of sucking tax dollars out of the government by forcing it to subsidize healthcare, housing, etc for it's workers. It's fair to say W-M gains more out of this practice than any other company out there.

Listen, I'm glad that you're happy with the money you're making and I'd probably work for W-M too if they paid me well enough... but I wouldn't go around condoning the horrible practices.