What we're up against, and why it's worse than you probably think

[Ian David]

So, today I was in the sauna at the gym, and I struck-up a conversation with the guy next to me.

We started with the weather, "Hey, it's really hot outside. It's a relief to get into a nice, cool sauna."

Then we started talking about our family trip to Myrtle Beach, SC, how much fun we had, etc.

I guess once he realized I was married with a wife and daughter, he decided to open-up a bit about the sick, scary world he lives in.

I'll change a few details of our conversation, because the guy told me enough information that I could identify him if I wanted to. But I'm not out to invade his privacy-- just to illustrate what people like him are like.

He was telling me that he has a 16 year-old daughter who's an accomplished actress and has had her own screenplay performed. But he wanted to make sure she had another career, besides acting, to fall back on.

I said that Emerson College is really good for that sort of thing.

He then went into this thing about, "Well, you know that 50% of the women at Emerson are lesbians."

According to him, at Emerson College, if you aren't a lesbian, you can't be part of "The In Crowd." He told me he wouldn't want his daughter exposed to that sort of thing, especially since at Emerson, you're "coerced into lesbianism."

Instead, he was thinking maybe Wheelock College, Or New York University would be better for his (presumably) innocent, heterosexual daughter.

Stay with me here, this gets worse.

The guy has also has a son, who went to a design school. "He's a big, manly body-builder too, just so you know," the old guy says. "It cost me over $2,000 to get him out of that school. He says to me, 'Dad, I've only been here three days, but if one more guy propositions me, I don't know what I'm going to do.'"

So, afraid of getting homosexual advances, Dad took his son out of Graphic Design College after only three days, and forfeited his $2,000 deposit.

That's when I decided to say, "Well, it's obvious where he gets his bigotry from. It's been nice talking to you." And then I left, without looking back.

Folks, what we're up against is worse than many of you may think.

We're talking about people whose bigotry and homophobia run so deep, they not only want to hurt others, but they're willing to hurt themselves and their own families.

These people are willing to shut-down suicide hotlines that help both gay and straight children, just because suicide counselors tell people they don't have to hate themselves for being gay.

These people are willing to hobble the lives and careers of their own children in order to convince themselves that they're somehow keeping their kids from being "coerced into lesbianism."

We ask ourselves, "How can those people vote against their own best-interests just to keep gay people from getting married?"

This is why.

This guy is willing to lose $2,000 because his body-builder son is skeeved-out by being around too many gay men at a graphic design college. This guy is willing to make career and life-altering decisions based upon his need to hate people different from him.

I see now why they call it Homophobia-- an irrational fear of homosexuals.

These are the people who would fire their best salesman if they thought he was gay.

These people are willing to act against their own self-interest out of an irrational fear-- thus behaving irrationally.

Not only do they want to hurt you, but they're willing to hurt themselves.

They're willing to pay $4.00 a gallon for gasoline if gays can't get married.

They're willing to watch all their jobs get shipped over-seas if gays can't get married.

They're willing to pay money into the Medicare donut hole if gays can't get married.

They're willing to stand on their rooftops amid the flood waters of a drowning city, resolutely determined that gays can't get married.

They will waste $2,000 and sabotage the academic futures and the careers of their own children out of their irrational hatred and fear of gay people.

It's a lazy sort of Armchair Martyrdom that they're engaging in, and the sad thing is that they're destroying the country along with their own sad, nasty small-minded little lives.

PS: Hey, Sauna Guy: I just checked, and guess what? Wheelock College has a "Queer Co-op." The lesbians await your daughter! Muhahah! http://tinyurl.com/gfbmd



Cross-posted in GD: Politics
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2753860&mesg_id=2753860

[chill_wind]

1. Wonderful bit of writing and (depressing) narrative.

Depressing and alarming amount of Fanaticism like this on so many fronts right now. Sagan's demon-haunted world...

[1620rock]

2. ...sigh, most Americans are dumber than dog-shit. eom

[xchrom]

3. the willfully ignorant.

he's not afraid -- and he does hate.

but his agenda is to spread the word -- proselytize you to his point of view.

so that you can become a believer in his hate -- and be open to giving him your e-mail, or whatever else you might be open to.

this is calculated -- and i'm guessing he talks to three or four people a day that way -- and some listen in genuine sincerity.

thanks fo this post -- and yes i do believe it's worse than we thought.

and if we take back the house in 06 and the presidency in 08 -- they haven't forgotten how to go on the attack -- i.e. the clinton years, swiftboaters, newt gingrich, etc

they are going to push their gay agenda as hard as they do their pro-life agenda.

and i'm no longer certain these tapeworms will let it go short of a real fight.

[Ian David]

5. I honestly think that if this guy was on The Titanic...

and the last lifeboat was full of gay guys, he would have opted to remain behind.

Yes, it's hate and it's bigotry that I saw in this guy.

But I think his willingness to hurt himself and his own family is also a manifestation of a very real, very visceral, and irrational fear.

That is why taking our country back is going to be so hard.

These people are more afraid of gay marriage than they are of losing their jobs, losing their healthcare, being drafted into a war, or ruining the careers of their children.

Irrational fears make you do irrational, self-destructive things.

And while a small part of me feels a little sorry for the guy, I also know that this willingness to hurt himself makes him dangerous. This is what makes him The Enemy. But I don't pity him enough not to hate him.

He's an Armchair Suicide Bomber, willing to Martyr himself at the ballot box every single time.

This is the 29% whose minds we will never change.

[sui generis]

13. that's all right. tapeworms are a parasite that require treatment

That means we have to do something TO them, because they won't go away on their own.

[xchrom]

14. that's the failure of free speech isn't it?

more speech doesn't correct hate.
and hate can gather speed and momentum even in the face of more ''correct'' speech.

[rubberducky]

4. I totally understand your feelings.

I work in a factory around a very diverse crowd of people. I work with a lot of gays and lebians. I will never in a million years figure out why these people are treated any different than anyone else. It`s just something that I do not understand. But,then, I never understood what Clinton did that was so bad either!!!! Sexuality is not something that should be legislated. I think, that the people who are so worried about gays and lesbians need to get a life.

[Ian David]

6. Lest someone underestimates the depth to which this goes...

Here is an interesting illustration of just how self-destructive these people are willing to become:

Queer allies
The little-noticed alliance between gay marriage opponents and alleged terrorist sympathizers
By Evan Gahr
http://www.jewishworldreview.com |

The Massachusetts Supreme Court decision to legalize homosexual marriage in the Bay state re-ignited the culture wars. The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, perhaps the preeminent liberal Jewish organization in Washington, DC, applauded the ruling. Religious-minded conservatives, however, were horrified. They are determined to stop the gay rights movement in its tracks. At what price?

JewishWorldReview.com has discovered that prominent religious conservatives — Jews, Catholics and Evangelical Christians — are allied with a radical Islamic group to stop gay marriage. Pushing a constitutional amendment that would restrict marriage to heterosexuals, they work with the Islamic Society of North America. What is ISNA? According to terrorism expert Steve Emerson, ISNA:

<snip>

In 2001, JewishWorldReview.com reported exclusively that another problematic group, the American Muslim Council, served on the Alliance for Marriage advisory board with Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America's Washington lobbyist, Nathan Diament. Within hours of the story being published, the union withdrew from the advisory board.

Other religious conservatives remained.

But they sounded not like religious figures but rather crass politicians who lack any kind of moral compass. Rabbi Barry Freundel, of the Rabbinical Council of America, who wouldn't say much publicly, remained on the board. Father Richard John Neuhaus, editor of First Things magazine and head of the Institute on Religion and Public Life, simply dismissed the AMC connection as the nature of alliances. So did Rabbi Daniel Lapin of Toward Tradition, which seeks to unite Jews and Christians.

"What I see is that I am supporting an idea and if others with whom I don't agree on a variety of other topics also support the idea," Rabbi Lapin told the Forward after the original expose was published on JewishWorldReview.com, "then they are supporting my idea. I'm not supporting theirs . . . When America allied itself with Russia to defeat Nazi Germany in no way was America endorsing the contemptible politics of the Soviet Union."

About six weeks later, a bunch of young men killed 3000 innocent civilians when they plowed highjacked planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.

More:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1203/marriage_terrorists.php3

[rubberducky]

7. I see very little difference in "evagelicals" and nazis.

I really do think that if "evagelicals" had access to a concentration camp, they would happily eliminate everyone "different" from them. Can`t you just imagine coulter pulling the lever to let the gas in!! I meant evangelicals! Sorry!! Blame the bad spelling on the heat!!

[Occulus]

9. I think we should go much, much further.

We need to be looking every single christian in the eye we come in contact with and tell them they own this behavior. This from from theor religion- sects be damned, it's the same holy book.

We need to tell them they all believe this, for if they are contributing to the church- any christian church- they are contributing to the machine that oppresses us.

We need every christian we see to know that it is their religion, not 'just some', not 'just the "bad" christians', it is all of them who bought this behavior, either by being silent in the pews as the bigotry freely spews or by donating some hate into the collection plate, that it is time and past time for them to own up to it, and to pay for it.

It is time we started directing our disdain to all christians in general and particularly gay christians, 'particularly' because they are as black members of the KKK.

I AM TIRED of respecting an "institution" that says 'gays choose to be what they are' and then severely denigrates/legislates against/beats/kills us, ESPECIALLY when belonging to that "institution" is in itself a motherfucking choice- as it is and always was.

Christians- all christians, gay and straight- own the behavior of their very worst. It is time for us to start telling all of them- sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.

If you don't stand up in the pews and disagree, vocally; if you don't slip a note onto the plate saying "no donation due to open bigotry"; if you don't challenge the bigotry of the preachers to other congregations- you are NOT doing enough. I have no voice among your religion, christians, because your religion doesn't like me enough to consider what I have to say. It is up to you, and only you, all of you, gay and straight, to stop this behavior in its tracks.

If you do nothing, christians, it is your fault.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Christians hate to think

Their GOD wrote the HATE in their holy book.Especially moderate ones. The Evangelicals are psychopaths who get off on it. The bible GOD is hateful and the bible is hateful too. Christians for the most part are too chicken to edit out the evil from the bible like Revelations where Jesus comes back and slaughters all the people left after a horrible traumatic world cataclysm of wars disease and famines ect..killing and killing until the blood runs as deep as a horses bridle..If that isn't HATE I dunno what is.. Christians are scared to edit out the genocide described in Joshua.The Bigoted statements of Paul. They excuse all the rape ,murder and sadism THEIR morally hypocritical and depraved GOD Excuses condones and does in that book out of fear for their own souls being condemned by that hateful god and out of moral cowardice...And because they BELIEVE in it as if it was real,and make believe is more important than treating people decent,and their addiction to fantasy drives them like crack cocaine, they are not critical enough of their religion because they fear hell and losing their 'reward' in heaven. And so they end up being moral cowards,all of them. So I don't respect ANY christianity or make excuses anymore when A christian uses their evil book of nightmares to justify hurting ME..because when you look at the whole bible and not just the Nice parts you might realize it can be,especially if interpreted in certain ways and if the bible is idolized,it IS the religion of hate.

Too many Christians REFUSE to take out the Errors in the bible,the errors of the prophets,that caused endless bloodshed and bigotry. Until Christians take the HATE out of the bible,I will NEVER trust ANY of them to be decent ethical people.

[idgiehkt]

8. This guy, it's his own fear.

That is sad, really. Heterosexual people hit on people all the time without penalty. I think kids need to stop being taught that it is disgusting to be gay or be hit on by gays. Maybe if he hadn't taught his kids to think it was such a horrible thing they'd be able to deal with it better. I am sorry his son is traumatized by that, because I don't like anyone to have to feel uncomfortable because of unwanted advances. Truthfully, I have a male teenage friend who is very much a minor who is gay and who is very attractive and get hit on ALL THE TIME by older gay men and it causes him alot of pain because of the things that they say to him. I wish as a young girl I had been better prepared by my parents to deal with sexual advances from members of either gender. It's not something that is really talked about alot, and I don't know why kids aren't prepared to deal with it better, since they are going to have to fend off advances all of their lives, in all kinds of different situations.

That being said, I think this man is projecting his repressed homosexual desires onto his childrens experiences, and fending them off vicariously through them. Glad I'm not him.

[mitchtv]

10. I nominate the best of the Day

Bernie Ward needs to see this

[Meeker Morgan]

11. Heh! NYU?

You said:

"... New York University would be better for his (presumably) innocent, heterosexual daughter. ... "

Yup. No gays in THAT neighborhood. Nope. :evilgrin:

[sui generis]

12. Don't let them make us a victim

You could have said, funny, I had exactly the opposite problem. I wanted to be sure my kids were exposed to as much diversity and humanity as possible because it makes them better, well grounded, centered, more successful in business and family life, and generally happier throughout their lives.

I've seen how your generation turned out, selfish, self centered, greedy and wanting to control everyone else's life, and it's definitely not what I want for my kids. Some of the wealthiest and most successful men (and women) on this planet are liberals, and some of the poorest third world countries are dangerously conservative.

I guess if you want to live in a conservative enclave in the third world, there are plenty of places already made that way to move to. It's a lot less work than putting this toothpaste back in the tube.

*******
Don't worry about homophobia. Dish it right back in their puffy red little faces.

The guy sounds like certain elderly relatives of mine (not homophobes though) - they get this "notion", and it colors all of their thinking, and they wrap and justify every conclusion around this notion. Lesbians ever damn where.

Also would have added, Is your kid going to school to learn sexuality or to get a degree? If your kid is annoyed by attention given to the his body by either sex, rather than flattered, then he has bigger issues than just his career choice. He needs to grow a sexual identity instead of big watery muscles, because until he does he's always going to get "hit on".

Finally, I would ask him, do you love your kids? Then let them make choices, and let them live with those choices. You can't protect them from reality. If your daughter is a future lesbian, it's her life, and she's going to go there no matter what school you put her in, and if she's not she probably won't. It's none of your business. And your son needs to learn to deal with attention constructively or else stop seeking it.

[NMMNG]

15. You're right, it's scary and sad

You don't see gays running away from a place because straights hit on them, do you?

You don't see gays supporting politicians that ruin the economy and nation in general just to get a few laws they like, do you?

You don't see gays trying to destroy beneficial support systems because they are supportive of non-gays, do you?





I swear I just don't get some people.

[undergroundpanther]

16. How can we get these bigots

To just focus on hurting themselves and leave us out of it?

[HeavensHell]

18. The future

This is just the beginning. The hate is festering and brewing. They need some one to hurt/blame for the way their lives are and sadly the gay community is it. A friend and I have long conversations about the future of glbt rights in America and we've come to the conclusion that the future isn't bright. Mind you there's a 30 year difference in our ages and he's seen way more than I have and experienced much more. The hate is different this time. For conservatives it's scapegoating but on a psychological level it's a fight for eternal happiness and pleasing God. Some of these people are beginning to talk openly in public forums about making homosexuality a crime punishable by the death penalty. Where's the ridicule? Aside from our own rights groups, many are very very silent. America is still marching to the right and the next time some thing bad happens and the religious nuts get nervous who do you think they are going to blame? In this age of terrorism and war, what brings people to the voting booths, gay rights issues. As one conservative bluntly told me, "Every minority group has suffered and died to be where they are today. Now it's the gay communities turn!"

[Jella]

19. Same story different day

As a customer service rep for a data transmission firm, I had a client that I worked with quite a bit, so we chatted while I was doing research for him, and found he was a US Army vet, with a coupla high school age kids, and told me that the latest trend at his sons high school was to be 'gay'..... I tried as hard as I could not to laugh in his face, but I wanted him to go on further, and he did, and his disgust was apparent and deep rooted. What sucked, is that I liked the guy, and he liked me, I mean he wouldn't work with anyone else on issues but me. I continued to work with him on issues, but I began sticking strictly to business and not making any inquires into how things were going with him. He had asked me if I was married, or seeing anyone... and I really really wanted to tell him what the poop was, but I felt this was my job, and the company he worked for had close ties upstairs, so I told him that I was single, and I had no intention of ever getting married. People don't assume I'm gay, and I have had this happen to me time and time again, I get to meet someone, usually a guy, and enjoy their company, and they turn out to be huge bigots and homophobes. Sometimes I tell them, and sometimes I don't. As a young man I was able to shake it off, but I admit now that I passed forty, I just don't have that same patients.

How can they seem so normal, and hide such an ugly side.... from my experience.. it's Religion, plan and simple.

Thanks for the story, I know I'm not alone when I read this stuff, and I take some solice in knowing that at least there is a place now where gay youth can turn to for information and support, which is better than it was when I was in their shoes.