Do you ever get disgusted?

[Behind the Aegis]

I was thinking on many things tonight. One of those things was, "where are all the gay people on TV?" I was watching "Will & Grace" tonight and thought...."have we really come all that far?" Although two of the main characters are gay, and one is bi-curious (?), do we ever get to be the "boring" people we really are?

Think about it: how many shows have gay characters? Of those shows, how many show us in relationships? Of those shows, how many show the real hate we face daily? Of those shows, how many ever show us being romantic, kissing, or in bed (outside of cable, like HBO or ShoTime)? How many shows still mock our sexuality?

What about movies? Are there any that show the "straight guy" experimenting? How many of "our" movies end on a "happy note?" How many show the complexity of our community? How many mainstream movies that have a gay character (who is not an escort, "questioning," AIDS-infected, pedophile, fop, comedic side-kick and/or criminal), actually show us as a complex human?

Sometimes, I get really disgusted. Why can't we have a character who happens to be gay be a title character, but is treated like all the rest of the title characters?

Is it just me?

[jbnow]

1. When I saw the subject line

"Do you ever get disgusted" I assumed it was bush & friends, not noting the forum, but your post is something I've been talking about recently.

What I have been talking about is watching HGTV and how they treat people they work with on the shows. If they are decorating or showing some house being sold or found they might have a straight couple married or not, a gay couple, people of any race or a biracial couple. It's not made a big deal, they treat them all like people. "Steve and Kathy are looking for their first house", "Steve and Ron have lived in this house for 7 years", "Sue and Kathy and their daughter Mary..."

Then they go on with the show, talking about and to them all as people, their taste, work, hobbies, whatever applies to what they seek in the show. I realized what a relief that is. They'll help redecorate a gay couples bedroom and not act strange or nervous.
OK, they don't address the bias or hate the couples face, they don't develop characters but it is so refreshing that people are people and all just treated with respect. What a concept!

It just made the difference in other TV shows all the more glaring, though I realize it's not the same thing. But on TV it is a GAY MAN, the gay is THE issue. STRAIGHT is not the focal point of straight characters. We'll know there is progress when they are just another character who happens to be gay.

There was that show about the minister...the Book of Daniel? One of the sons was gay, one of the aunts experimented. I wondered how they would develop that. Don't know if you saw it in the brief time on but "Jesus" was in it too and didn't do any gay condemning. Maybe why the right wing was so riled and opposed to the show. Maybe why the show was only on 3 times before they pulled it.

[NMDemDist2]

2. agreed

I watch a LOT of HGTV and truthfully it never dawned on me about the many types of family units they showed until Husb2Sparkly brought it up one day. But it really is refreshing to see real people in their various lifestyles without any tongue in cheek campy crap. and it just made me want to support HGTV even more.

I am moving and I was checking out different TV options and the two stations I checked for were HGTV and Comedy. they are "must see TV" in our house.

as for "Daniel" I really was enjoying the show and was pissed it was taken off the air. maybe HBO will pick it up huh?

[Uncle Zoloft]

3. We're with y'all

We had stop watching c-span, fox, cnn, msnbc and the like as per doctors orders. We've been hooked on HGTV and the like since. I hadn't focused on the diversity these programs deliver ~ thanks for pointing it out. Seems our shrinks were right.

[bigscott]

4. but wouldn't you like to see

A mainstream prime-time show with gay characters who are not over the top (Jack) or insecure and unable to maintain a relationship (Will) or addicted to pills and booze to cover for mixed feelings (Karen)? I stopped watching W&G when they stopped portraying the title characters as "real" people - with real jobs and real relationships and real lives. I love HGTV too but still, how many straights watch that and say "wow gay people are so normal!!"

[jbnow]

5. Wouldn't a show of real people

like on HGTV be more likely to open biased straight eyes then made up characters? In dramas or comedies people could think "that isn't real."

The hosts and channel just set a good example that is a good place to start. It's past time to be able to go further, but I can't help thinking they open the door some.

It took forever for blacks to start having normal roles. TV doesn't seem to feel any desire to lead in simple, healthy ways. It's hardly a matter of values, they have no trouble with casual sex, adultery, violence. It makes no sense to me that they can't quietly have characters, even not leading characters if that helps, who just live normal lives and are also gay.

[NMDemDist2]

9. welcome to DU Uncle Zoloft!!

:hi:

[Uncle Zoloft]

16. Thank you. Y'all are an interesting lot.

:rant:

[NMDemDist2]

18. what "y'all" is that? DU or GLBT?

since I'm not gay not sure I'd fit in the latter albeit I end up all too often here fighting for equal rights for ALL americans :evilgrin:

[Uncle Zoloft]

22. well if you're in this forum

glbt -or- str8 -or- liberal it would be all o' y'all.:patriot:

[NMDemDist2]

23. Ok

I can live with that :rofl:

[closeupready]

6. Almost every friend I have is gay; that makes me weird, apparently

given the image presented by Hollywood and TV - in the media, everyone is straight. This year's Oscars demonstrates how homophobia continues to rule in Hollywood (and by extension, TV).

[Siyahamba]

7. Yes

Some of the movies billed as LGBT "must-sees" disgust me. I didn't like The Birdcage, it basically says gays are incapable of "straight-acting." Kissing Jessica Stein? It was just a phase; back to men in the end.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

10. Parts of Kissing Jessica Stein were good..

some were over the top.

some were my life.

some lesbians DO fall for men. That said- I don't think that Jessica's character ever really was 100% gay... She DID have an attraction to that guy from the start of the movie.

some parts of the movie pissed me off.

I do own the movie, however. (and both women are hot. :blush: )

[terrya]

8. Sure I am.

First...."Will and Grace" is a fucking joke. This show rarely deals with any issues relating to the GLBT community. If anyone expected anything like that from this show, they will be sadly disappointed. And it's incredibly sad that the two gay characters have their main emotional attachments to women. Apparently, being gay on network television means still having a heterosexual grounding in your relationships.

Still, on television, we're...added to spice things up. Gosh, how hip is that heterosexual main character...he/she has a gay friend you won't get to know very well! That supporting character is gay...my goodness, that's enough!

I wish we would be treated as ordinary people. But you know..."Brokeback Mountain" is a step in the right direction. Complex, real people.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

11. Not to mention, that the women in Will and Grace are not "whole"

Neither of them really have a personality unrelated to men and the attention of men. (ok, I guess that could be said partially about jack also!)

Karen has an addiction to things she can't, or shouldn't have- excessive booze, pills, clothing,
Grace has a desire to keep things safe. Hence- Will. The two women would be a more interesting couple than any other aspect of the show... both have insecurities and desires for attention and love that the men in their lives will never be able to fill. Of course, I think that this match would be just as vapid as the one that's already being portrayed on TV. :shrug:


Ok, I'll stop the rant here. Any thoughts?

[terrya]

12. Good analysis

You have a point about Karen and Grace. Both are far more complex then the amle characters. And yes...Grace and Karen would be a more interesting couple...there's a dynamic between them that isn't there between Will and Jack.

On the other hand, maybe they're just 4 ridiculously shallow characters....

[the arkansas liberal]

13. Liz Smith--

of all people -- has referred to W & G as a 'minstrel show' and ya know -- she may be right. I don't like thinking my friends and acquaintances believe gay people really act like that but let's face it: are all New Yorkers like the "Seinfeld" cast? Does "Boston Legal" speak for all Massachusetts attorneys? Did anyone believe the characters portrayed on "Friends" could actually function in NYC? Point is: it is a 'comedy' meant to be broad and over-the-top. It is campy and topical -- you have to be in-the-know to get all the jokes. I usually miss one or two. Once, a few seasons ago, Will was addicted to some pain killers. There was an intervention: the rest of the gang took the pills away, and Will responded, "But I'm in pain," to which Jack replied, "Effie, we all got pain!" This is a direct quote from a pivotal scene in "Dreamgirls." Who knows sh*t like this? God knows if I weren't a theater queen (and I mean that in the best way, or course) I wouldn't get many of the jokes. It reminds me of the over-the-top stuff in "The Nanny" which had more trivial Broadway references than a year's worth of 'Playbill!' Suspend belief and enjoy, or get pissed off like I sometimes do because Will cannot sustain a relationship or because Jack is a complete parasite, but at least this show has forced conversations and has exposed middle America to the idea that gays exist in areas outside of rest areas and adult book stores....

[ncrainbowgrrl]

14. You do have a good point- they really COULD just be shallow characters

I'd just prefer to see less shallow/more representative characters- more like average everyday queer people. (ok, I admit it- I want to see me!)

I suppose this is more representative of my life than... say... 7th heaven or CSI Miami. :shrug:

[Uncle Zoloft]

15. Grey's Anatomy

Had a male couple with an adopted son - one dad effete the other kinda like "Mike - the plumber" on DH in a suit. I wish Logo had more in their vaults.

[theHandpuppet]

17. No, it's not just you

It's a topic I've debated on many fora over the years but you'd be surprised how even some gay folks get their back up when you talk about gay invisibility on TV and on film.

After one of my most recent debates on the issue ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=210&topic_id=11739&mesg_id=11739 ) I just about decided to not even bring up the topic again. Even here on DU I felt as if I was banging my head against a brick wall of denial and excuses. So thanks for raising the questions once again.

I will say that there is one series right now that really tops my list of shows brave enough to include gay themes on a regular basis -- and that's "Cold Case", a Jerry Bruckheimer program. They have had some of the most moving gay storylines I've ever seen anywhere and the writing is terrific. They don't hold back anything when it comes to showing the tragedy and sickness of homophobia, but some of their gay love stories have been done so beautifully they have moved me and my partner to tears. I've not seen any other show on TV that even comes close to acknowledging gay folks in the way Cold Case has done -- and that's a real shame.

[Boomer]

19. Without a Trace caught my interest

It's a relatively new show, which I've only watched sporadically, but a few weeks ago an episode opened with a young woman casually correcting the FBI agent when he referred to her "boyfriend." "He's a she," said the young woman and then moved on in conversation.

I was half-dreading a set-up for a murderous-pyschopath-lesbian scenario, but to my surprise and delight the storyline turned into a gay romantic comedy. The episode ended with two women kissing while "It's Amore" played in the background.

That's EXACTLY the kind of treatment I hunger for: the story of two people in love is treated as a celebration, not a tragedy with bodies littering the stage. Lesbians aren't psycho predators or martyred victims, just regular folk struggling with the ordinary fear that the person you love may not love you in return.

For those of you old enough to remember Kate & Allie, which ran back in the 1980s, that always struck me as the perfect setup for a lesbian comedy. The only detail that would need to have changed was removing the boyfriend scripts. In every other respect, these two characters would have been ordinary women and just as ordinary lesbians, albeit with better comic timing than most of us who have to get through life without scripts.

[dsc]

20. I intermittently watch cold case

since it is on against west wing and when I am at church but it has had some great treatment of gays. The one where the baseball player is killed in a homophobic attack brought me to tears.

[closeupready]

21. I LOVED Kate & Allie

I still get a thrill out of seeing Tyne Daly - she's on some Lifetime show, isn't she?

On EDIT, duh, you said Kate & Allie, not Cagney & Lacey - :D

[Boomer]

24. Same difference

Except Cagney & Lacey were co-workers, which does rather complicate a romance!