How do we make our issues matter?

[Meldread]

I am growing increasingly disappointed (to put it mildly) with fellow "liberals" and "leftists" when it comes to LGBT issues. Why is it that our issues do not seem to be on the agenda? Why is that we are, more often than not, seen as a drag to "liberal" causes? When did civil rights stop being a liberal cause?

I just don't understand it. Take a look at Alito. All the fear of him getting on the bench is surrounding abortion and barely any of it is surrounding him and the fact that he would most likely stand in the way of us getting gay marriage from the Supreme Court. That's a straight issue if there ever was one, how does abortion effect or even matter to me as a gay man? Yet I am supposed to be passionate about the issue and fight for a woman's right to choose. Of course, I do fight for the right to choose, not because it effects me personally but because I believe it is the right thing to do. If I can do that, how come the same folks fighting for a woman's right to choose also get behind LGBT rights?

I mean, damn it, at their heart they are the same: It is telling the government to stay out of our private lives and allow us to make our own choices. Do not legislate what some people perceive as "morality". I don't understand it. I just don't.

I suppose I should put this question to straight folks, asking them why they are so willing to write off gay issues and not fight for them as if it were a woman's right to choose. Why are LGBT people seen as a drag on the Democratic Party? Frankly, I am getting sick of this little 'game' that is being played. If I am not wanted within the Democratic Party - if the Democratic Party isn't willing to stand up for my HUMAN RIGHTS - then I have no use for them. I'll find another party and only vote for candidates who are LGBT friendly.

[Warpy]

1. Hey, your straight sisters are pretty much with you on gay issues

but we certainly won't be voting for any Log Cabin types who'd sell us all out for a buck. In fact, we won't be voting for any of our Democrat friends who think womens' issues and gay issues can be sacrificed in order to try to woo angry, straight white males away from the GOP. Women are generally the first the male left sells out; they don't even consider gays.

Alito is a disaster for HUMAN rights, whether gay or straight, male of female, working class or middle class. He has never sided with a working person against a corporation. He is a cold fish, completely lacking in empathy, who has sided with a school district and a strip search of a ten year old girl child. He is an ideologue and an appalling human being who is completely unfit for the high court.

That enough support for you?

[Meldread]

3. Maybe, here is a question for you:

Let say Hillary win's the Primaries in 2008. Hillary, under the advise of her husband, as he advised John Kerry in 2004, campaigns against gay rights - saying that she will not support gay marriage. Perhaps she'll even go a step further, as her husband wanted John Kerry to do, and say she'll support a constitutional ban on gay marriage "in every small town across America."

What would you do? Would you still support Hillary? Would you feel the same if she supported a constitutional ban on Abortion? That's the real test.

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Why the bloody hell should I vote for someone opposed to my human rights?

For me, that is the bottom line. Anyone who refuses to support my fundamental rights as an American and a human being will never, EVER get my support, I don't care how much "better" he or she may be than the alternatives.

[Meldread]

16. That's my point. That's the point of this thread.

Why should we keep supporting people who do not even recognize us as fully Human? Why are we allowing ourselves to be bullied into the support of Democrats who, over all, do not really support us?

[closeupready]

17. I don't know why some gays let themselves be doormats.

There was a recent story here about some homophobic legislation developing in Pennsylvania, and there was a statement that some dems had signed on to it. I asked which dems had signed on, but got no response. You better believe that if I lived in a jurisdiction where such legislation were coming around, I would find out and complain if my legislator was backing such legislation.

I also am familiar with the argument that Pukes would put us all in gas chambers, which is silly, but homophobic dems will argue this line of reasoning (and variations thereof) as a twofold means of 1) assuaging guilty consciences; and 2) attempting to make dem gays sit down and shut up.

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. Indeed

I get very tired of being ordered to shut up and support the party line solely because the Democrats are "better" than the Republicans. Just because one political party wants to see me dead, I should enthusiastically support the other political party that wants to keep me as a second-class citizen with limited rights? I chose "None of the above" because both options are horrific and anti-American.

And before anyone hands out the standard BS of "Look at the platform", I will ask: How much of the platform regarding equal rights and equal marriage has actually been supported by lawmakers, much less actively pursued?

[MsUnderstood]

2. The abortion right is the gay man's fight

The abortion right is the gay man's fight. Abortion hinges on the right to privacy. If Alito is confirmed the implicit right to privacy will be tossed out of discussion. . .and then the overturning of the 1986 sodomy case (which was overturned because of the right to privacy) will be reviewd in a new case (because states ignore the supreme court and arrest homosexuals for consensual sex in the privacy of their own home even after the court said that was illegal) and it will once again be illegal to have sex in your own home.

It isn't tha straight folks dont care--but you need to be able to absorb the bigger picture--your rights and women's rights are the same.

[Meldread]

4. If it's the same then how come straight folks don't see it?

That's my point. I support women's rights because I believe in Human Rights. I fight for a woman's right to choose just as hard as I do for LGBT Rights, even though technically speaking it'll never effect me one way or another. How come LGBT people do not get that same type of support from straights?

Let's face it. Roughly speaking only 30% or so of America at most support's gay marriage. Over 50% support a woman's right to have an abortion. That is a rather large gap of people who are against us, and believe it or not - Democrats make up a sizeable chunk.

[closeupready]

20. I do think generally that those who support choice support LGBT rights

That's almost always been the case.

But different issues resonate differently depending upon which audience we are talking about.

[OneBlueSky]

5. I'll get flamed for this, but there are more important issues . . .

to tackle right now than gay rights . . . and I'm speaking as a gay man . . . with the country on the verge of initiating WWIII in the Middle East, killing people and destroying nations with depleted uranium bombs, and all the rest of it, I just can't get incensed about gay marriage -- or any other interest group issues, for that matter -- important as it may be in the long run . . . because if we don't stop the BushCo takeover of the country and their rape of the planet, the rights of gays and lesbians will be in no more or less jeopardy than the rights of everyone else . . . to me, gay issues are on the back burner until we can get corporations out of government, Bush out of the White House, and Republicans (and their Democratic enablers) out of Congress . . .

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. Then you are a sell-out

Any gay person who votes for a candidate that opposes equal rights for gay people is no different than a Log Cabin Republican who votes GOP because he is rich and more interested in tax cuts than civil rights.

A candidate can endorse my rights without compromising on other issues.

[OneBlueSky]

24. where did I say I'd ever vote for a candidate who opposes . . .

equal rights? . . . I'm just saying that "god, guns and gays" are the right's way of keeping us focused on something other than their complete takeover of the government and the planet . . .

[Meldread]

11. Why can't we do it all?

I'm not going to say that those things you listed aren't important. They of course are extremely important. However, I don't see a reason that we can't do it all. Those Democratic enablers (those allowing Republicans do get away with all you listed) are the same ones who are opposing us on gay rights issues.

Although, I do have one question: Would you be willing to sell out abortion the same way you are selling out gay rights, would you be willing to allow Democrats and Republicans to outlaw abortion for all the reasons you've listed?

[mitchtv]

21. you mean ,, til after I am dead

no thanks

[sui generis]

25. here's the problem

if our "party" continues to find more important issues, when WILL it be our turn? I'm sorry, my life is important, and while terrorists blowing up the shoe store at the mall may be intensely frightening to some and while worrying about corporations and the middle east and the environment is critical to having a decent life for EVERYONE, even after those problems are solved I still would fear to lose my adopted children at a traffic stop in Oklahoma since they don't recognize my parental rights or my unlawful marital arrangement.

If our party can't put us on the front burner because we might make our party lose, then they'll never put us on the front burner to keep from losing office, even if they do win.

Go ahead write us off. I will do everything in my power to become the citizen of a better country, and believe me there are better countries to go to if being gay here is too much of a daily challenge.

And I'm not alone. And I'll campaign AGAINST the democratic candidate if that's their strategy. In fact, I'd vote FOR a republican candidate if they put gay rights on their agenda and ours did not.

And I am serious as a heart attack.

[NMMNG]

6. Unfortunately they see abortion as a much bigger issue

It affects all women who are, or will be, of childbearing age, as well as sexually active men. That is a mighty big chunk of the population. As for the gay issue, it affects only 10%, give or take, of the population. That's why we are so much more "expendable" as a group and an issue.

There's also the moral factor to contend with. As much as many Liberals might believe homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality, there are those who disagree and/or those who feel that the Reich's caterwauling about gays' immorality costs us votes from undecided people. This second group is the problematic one, because they labor under the delusion that some Democrats are expendable. Who will they find inconvenient next? The disabled? Latinos? Atheists? (Oh yeah, they already find us expendable :eyes:).

[Meldread]

12. Latinos are safe for now...

...unless Republicans are successful in keeping them out of the country. That's likely due to all the cheap labor they provide, and Big Business likes them too much for that reason. Atheists have already been expended. (I just loved how all the Democrats went out there and said the pledge, then shouted "UNDER GOD". Bastards. That is the equivalent of them walking out there and shouting "HAIL SATAN" for Christians.) If the disabled lost the power to vote they'd be expendable, they also have a decent enough lobbying power and really don't register on either Republican or Democratic radar. They'll keep throwing them a bone as long as it makes them look sympathetic to the plight of others.

Gays? They'll meet us in some back alley somewhere, tell us that they are our friend, all they need from us is our vote and our campaign contribution... oh and our promise not to bring up any of our "issues" during the elections... So in other words, shut up, gimmie your money and vote, and you better not tell anyone I'm here or else I'll make sure worse shit happens to you. No wonder I feel violated every time I come into contact with one of them, it's like being mugged.

Frankly, I'm at my wits end with the Democratic Party. I'm going to wait and see what happens in 2006. If they fail me again, then I am looking elsewhere. I'm not going to let folks bully me into getting my vote "because otherwise Republican's will win!" Well, wooptie-freakin'-do. My vote isn't for sale and it can't be bullied out of me, either. I'm not some cowardly right wing blow hard that can be "scared" into my place.

[mitchtv]

22. Don't worry the Dems will go nowhere again

Naming Tim Kaine to give the Dem SOTU answer "what the hell were they thinking?" James Carville /Paul bergala back on tv WTF? we will be abandoned have no fear.

[xchrom]

7. how we as a society view women and their bodies

and the notion that a woman has direct control over her own body has a bearing on how people see gay folk.

these ideas are very old -- and you are right -- alito is almost the perfect metaphor for the threat that the right poses to these ideas.

we as gay people will find very hard to get from ''A'' to ''B'' until women are seen as independent and in control of their own destiny -- and while we make progress on the one hand -- we backslide on the other.
i.e. why does mississippi have only one abortion clinic for the entire state?

alito is a lifeless, dry human being representing an enormously powerful faction wanting to drag us backwards -- he has a fundamental belief that privacy is negotiable -- which is fine for patriarchs in charge but a disaster for everybody else.

gay folk -- with clinton being a great example - cannot extricate ourselves from the womens rights issues.
much as in our anger we might like to.

and i wouldn't be so quick to judge the left lightly when it comes to gay rights -- there's plenty of submerged ''gay panic'' among the left -- and we have to be vigilant with that as well.

[Meldread]

10. You are correct.

I just find it odd that, all things considered, Alito poses a larger threat to gays than to abortion rights. If worse came to worse, abortion has a pretty strong majority support across America compared to gay rights issues, and there could be steps taken to block anything Alito and the Supreme Court attempts. Gay issues? I don't know a single Democrat willing to touch them, at least not publicly or one that isn't looking for money from LGBT people.

On a side note, when a candidate running for office wants to lend support for LGBT folks do you ever get the feeling, at least with most who ask, that it feels like they are meeting us in some dark back alley somewhere telling us 'Shhhh! Don't tell 'em I'm here!' That's always the feeling and impression I am left with, as if they are somehow 'tainted' after coming into contact with us and are doing us a 'favor' by allowing themselves to be 'tainted'. Then, of course, they want our money.

*shrugs* I just wish there was a way to mobilize the same type of support we see for women's rights to also be equal to the support we need for gay rights. I really don't see the two as separate issues, both are about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (And keeping the damn government out of our business.)

[xchrom]

15. i may not share your exact feelings re: alito and abortion

but i do with mainstream candidates and lgtbq folk.

and so does harvey fierstein -- he held the largest fund raiser the lgbtq community ever managed for kerry BEFORE kerry came out against gay marriage.

you can guess he was pissed -- as am i.

i won't vote a less than a frank presidential cadidates in full support of lgbtq issues - i simply do not have that kind of money to waste or votes to waste either.

[Lisaben2619]

13. Make no mistake, the LGBT folks are just the first to be abandoned by Dems

If and when it ever becomes politically expedient for the white, straight, male Dems and the women who act like white men (Hillary, Feinstein, among others) they will sell women and choice down the river in a split second and never look back. What do you think all this "I'm personally opposed to abortion, but I think women should be able to get one if they're victims" bullshit is?

The goal is to get woman and any men who step outside of the margins back into secondary roles. LGBT people are just the beginning.

At the risk of getting flamed: I also think this is why so many gay, white men are trying to convince straight, white men that they're just like them. What happened to Pride and Diversity? Now, we have to say that we want to get married in order to be considered fully human?

[Meldread]

18. Well, in regards to the marriage...

It is not so much marriage that we want as the over 1,000 rights marriage provides to married couples. Civil Unions do not offer all of those rights, and we are demanding it be called marriage because we are not subservient to heterosexuals. We are demanding that our relationships be seen just as equal and valid as heterosexual relationships - and I think ultimately this is why so many heterosexuals have a problem with it.

Religion is just a cover for most folks who oppose gay rights. Most folks who oppose gay rights view gay people as second class citizens, and we are the "new black" of America. If there was an easy way to identify us, you can be certain that we'd be segregated. You can be damn sure they don't want us near their kids, as if "gay" can rub off on them.

I suppose the gay rights movement needs to go back to basics. Here we are fighting for marriage, when most heterosexuals don't even view us as their equals. Hell, I'm willing to bet most heterosexuals who support us would be upset if they had a gay child. Why does being gay even have to be a *bad* thing? Why can't it be a *good* thing? I suppose we need a public image make over.

I just don't understand why Democrats are so afraid to stand up for LGBT people. Sure, the majority might not support gay marriage - so what? That's their job - to win the majority over! Why do religious folks even care? Even if gay marriage became legal any church could still deny to marry us! Hell, any church can deny marriage to anyone they want. Don't like fat people? Don't like mixed marriages? Churches have the right to be both tax exempt and discriminatory thanks to the first amendment! It's just too bad that the first amendment, the same amendment that protects them, is also being eroded by them to ensure that they can force their beliefs onto the general population!

I just don't understand things anymore. I'm at the point where I'm ready to give up, but at the same time ready to fight like a cornered animal. I'm ready to become feral and savage, using whatever means necessary to secure my rights, but at the same time knowing that it might be my "last stand" so to speak.

[closeupready]

14. Don't upset the apple cart, or you'll get banned

:sarcasm: Go along, get along and we'll all be as happy as Stepford Wives.

But seriously, just keep pushing. Do not sit down and shut up, and make it clear that a relationship is a two-way thing - you want gay votes, money and time, you're gonna have to support gay rights.

[closeupready]

19. And then there's "where are they going to go? :evil laugh: "

as though gays have no choice, which echoes the "pukes will send gays to gas chambers" line of argument.