Can some Trans folk be homophobic, or at least not "queer"?

[Lex]

I was reading the Transphobia thread and I think it is a valid concern that the gay and lesbian community has been less than welcoming of persons in the trans community.

On the other hand, I know a couple (were 2 women, now 1 is male) and they don't have anything to do with the gay and lesbian community and really bristle at the thought being "queer" in any way. They did in-vitro and have a little boy, and joined a conservative church, etc.

That's probably the exception and not the rule, but the whole issue can certainly be complicated.

I was lucky enough to have an office assistant who is trans and he is a wonderful person and taught me a lot about the many issues a trans person has to face. He hopes to one day marry his girlfriend and I wonder how much of the queer community he'll be once he's older and has made a life with his girlfriend, etc.

Just ruminating here . . .

[gordonlamb]

1. sure.

A lot of gays and lesbians don't consider the trans community to be a legitimate part of queer culture.

[davidinalameda]

3. welcome to DU gordonlamb

:hi:

[gordonlamb]

4. Thanks!

glad to be here.

[foreigncorrespondent]

7. Just like...

...many trans people are pretty damn homophobic!

Not harping on you gordon, just adding to your own thought!

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. A 'conservative church'?! How perverted.

[Lex]

5. Well, they were both raised very conservatively

and I think they feel very "mainstream" now. They are nice people still. Just very much like their own families in many ways.

[Sapphocrat]

6. Yep.

It's what I was talking about in Brian's thread: straight TGs.

Beyond straight TGs, however, there's an interesting subgroup of lesbian and gay TGs who have taken full advantage of being born with the wrong genitalia, and then basically turned around and told the LGB community to fuck off.

I'll explain:

I recall a news article (it would be hard to find a link now, but it was a feature in the SJ Merc) during one of the peaks of anti-same-sex-marriage hysteria (2003 or 2004) about TGs opposed to legalizing same-sex marriage.

Ya'd think they'd all be in our corner, since they know all about unfair persecution. Not these TGs.

The couples who were interviewed were those in which one partner had a sex change (the whole nine yards) after the couple had been married (legally, as man and woman). In other words, a biological male and a biological female got married, and 15 years later, bio-male goes through the op, takes the hormones, and now he is a she.

None of the couples had run into any legal hassles after the sex change -- but all were terrified that, since they were now technically same-sex couples, all the high-profile brouhaha over same-sex marriage might mean the state would notice that they were now same-sex couples, and void their still-in-effect legal marriages.

And every one of them wished that the same-sex marriage issue would go away -- and that gay people would just shut the fuck up, because we were endangering their legal standing as marrieds.

Which is the first and last time anybody ever demonstrated how the issue of same-sex marriage could even come close to threatening the "sanctity" of somebody else's marriage.

I was SO pissed off when I read what these couples had to say. How DARE they be so goddamned selfish?!

But then, in their minds, I guess, they've got the best of both worlds -- they got theirs, so fuck everybody else.

Realistically, I assume (but have no idea) that the vast majority of L/G TGs who get legally married to MOTOGender don't plan premeditatively to take advantage of the system by virtue of their chromosomes; I assume these TGs struggle with their TGism all their lives and try, futilely, to fulfill the expected role of the bio-gender they were born with. And I assume that when they finally come out and say, "I gotta get that op!" it comes as a severe shock to their spouses.

In other words, I'm not accusing the majority of L/G TG's of doing this, or even thinking about it.

But the ones who have are essentially gay people (if you're a MTF married to another woman, you're a lesbian, no?) who have sold out all other gay people.

[Lex]

8. It's hard to think that people out there would be so short-sighted

on the marriage issue.

On the other hand, I've known of 2 lesbians who did in-vitro and have had a child and then after they broke up, one of them (the bio-mom) claims IN THEIR LEGAL CASE that the other mom shouldn't have any rights over the child because their lesbian relationship shouldn't have conferred any parental rights to the non-bio mom of the child!

The child THEY chose TOGETHER to bring into their lives.

Wow, talking about selling out the entire GLBT community! :grr:

[UncleSepp]

13. That's really sad

I hope I don't meet someone like that. You'd think that someone who'd managed to slip a same-sex marriage through the system after such a struggle of transformation, someone whose marriage managed to survive transition, would value marriage so much they'd want to fight doubly hard to be sure everyone had the right to be married. :-(

[SoKalKyle]

9. Not knowing much about TG;s...

I would assume that it is a hetero person trapped in the wrong body (i.e. a heterosexual woman trapped in a man's body). While they may (or may not) have sex with another man -- they don't think of it as 'gay' since they are female inside. They may also see having sex with a woman as somehow 'normal' since they have a man's body. Once they are female on the outside -- their sex life is normal hetero stuff.

I would also assume that most trans people are heterosexual at about the same percentages as others (only about 10% gay).

TG's have always had a difficult road with gay politics. While they endure some similar bigotry and are often thought of as gay, I can easily see someone being resentful of the gay population. Especially since many gay people don't think that TG's are part of the club.

Many gay folks believe that our rights have been held up sometimes because we insisted on TG's being treated equally, too.

[Lex]

10. It seems like a mess

because gay and lesbian people are told they should be more inclusive of TG people in their fight for civil rights, on the other hand trans people may feel little or no identification with the gay and lesbian community at all.

Even using the "queer" label, which works as an umbrella term for many, makes some people bristle at the term.

My own personal philosophy is to be inclusive of people who want to be included!

[kweerwolf]

15. There are probably those who could clear this up better ...

... but as I understand it, sexual orientation is independent of gender identity.

It's an overstatement to refer to "a hetero person trapped in the wrong body" because if a straight man who desires women is also transgendered and undergoes sex reassignment surgery, "she" would then be considered a lesbian. When a person changes his or her gender, it doesn't necessarily mean the object of his or her desire changes as well.

[undergroundpanther]

11. Conservatives? Yikes

Sadly some transfolks are fed up with the rejection in the gay community.
So when the transition is done the trans-person can be a "straight" now.Blend in and be "normal" as if their gender mismatch never happened.

I think this couple is overcompensating.

I think they may have been hurt by the gay community, or rejected.

There is very little in way of services that help trans people.
Because we are gender variants we don't go to the proper bathrooms of our sex organs before op and there is no bathroom for half transitioned,and if we fail to pass we get chased out of our proper NEW gender restrooms .We don't fit into this gender divided MorF world.So it's sad but say where is a pre op transgender to go for say,rape counseling or domestic abuse cases or get help for a sexual problem? Everything is gender segregated.

Including portions of the Gay community.

A gay man or woman has a vast array of services compared to Trans people.
So where would a jaded transitioned ex lesbian pre- op trans couple who has been mistreated,ignored and insulted by the gay community go? Straight.
At least as a straight providing the trans person passes,they can be treated as people and not as a pain in the ass,a problem,an offense,a threat or something else.
I can see why they'd leave the gay community if they desire to pass as just another straight couple that gets no notice from hostile eyes..
I can also see why they might feel hostile to a gay community that ain't exactly buddy buddy with trans people.

But there is no excuse to be a bigot to the gay community in general or the gays that did not cause them pain personally tho..Than to go join a conservative church it looks to me like a sick form of overcompensation and a desperate attempt forget the awkward painful past/truth and shut it out.

Defensiveness and rejection can make people behave in alot of sick ways.

[jackpan1260]

12. If a group like the Log Cabin Republicans exist

anything is possible.

[tjwmason]

14. In my experience anybody can be anything.

Gay men can be anti lesbian. Lesbians can be anti gay men. Gays can be anti bi. I could go on - and on - and on.

I don't know any trans myself - but it makes perfect sense (given how odd we humans are) that some of them are anti gay.

[huntress_23]

16. alphabet soup...

tjwmason wrote:

it makes perfect sense (given how odd we humans are)

Odd indeed!

It is human nature to carry some sort of prejudice (though we hate to admit it). We are an interesting motley bunch. I remember when we were only the LG community, then LGB, LGBT, and now, as many note, we are becoming the Alphabet Soup (LGBTQI...LMNOP). Some take issue with that. I do not. Until we are comfortable with such diversity within our own community, we can't possibly expect the rest of the world to embrace us.

[Lex]

17. Welcom to DU, huntress!

Great post! I agree. All of us progressives have to stick together if we expect to ever win out against those who use the tactic of divisiveness and hatred to try to keep us fragmented and powerless.

[huntress_23]

18. thank you Lex

You are exactly right...what makes the conservative movement so powerful is their ability to find the hot topics that divide us (ie gay marriage, choice. etc.) and then to POUND POUND POUND them over and over. We become so engaged in arguing with each other about how to respond that we fail to see them running away with the metaphoric pot of gold. As an example, one needs only to look at the 2004 Presidential campaign and the slew of marriage amendments in swing states. George Bush won on the backs of the LGBT community by using the marriage issue to turn the campaign into a Holy War against our "diminishing family values."