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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:18 PM
Original message
“I’m for gay rights but…”
http://www.uptownnotes.com/im-for-gay-rights-but/

Well worth the read IMO.

So for the past few years I’ve been jousting with my family and loved ones around the issue of same sex marriage and repeatedly found my argument falling on deaf ears. In fact what I most often heard was, “I am for gay rights but…” and what would follow would immediately sweep away any indication of actual support for the union of two people from the same sex. As a service to myself and those with whom I will soon have this discussion with, I’ll provide some statements and my rebuttals. Instead of taking our 45 minutes on spinning wheels, let’s work and see and if we can cover some different ground.

1) “I’m for gay rights but … you can’t compare being Black to being gay.”

I feel you, I understand that being Black is different than being gay, but did you realize even in that statement you’re implying that we don’t have Black gay folk? No really, this is the part of the conversation where you keep on throwing out “they” which you might as well then say “those people.” I know you don’t like me bringing that up, because for so long and so often within the dominant White culture of America Black folks are referred to as “they”, “those people” and even recently “that one.” It’s really a process of othering, trying to make a distinction of who is “in” and should receive privileges and who is “out” (pun intended).

2) No, you’re not getting it, I didn’t choose to be Black and I can’t hide being Black.

Touche, you’re probably don’t remember when you chose to be Black, if you ever did. In fact, since we’re talking – heterosexual to heterosexual, I don’t remember when I choose to be straight, but that’s besides the point. The point is that being “Black” and being “gay”, as we sociologists say are both “socially constructed”. Yeah, fancy academic words but definitely important. By socially constructed I mean that we create the boundaries and meanings for these categories. There is a great film that breaks this down and books, but let’s be real, you ain’t gonna pick up a book or watch a movie in the middle of this blog post, so let me do what I can to break it down now. While we’ve come to think of meaning of Blackness as something that can’t be changed, avoided, and pretty much is like gravity, we’ve forgotten that was created. In fact, the dominant images and tropes of “What is Black”, weren’t even our creation. Think about it, how many people who identify as Black, would say “my skin is actually the color of Black.” Very few, in fact, we respond by saying things like “I’m brown, caramel, dark chocolate, etc.” all descriptors that side-step an imposed moniker. Also have we forgotten that for so many years, the oppression of being Black and not having access to rights made many of our ancestors pass? Yeah, that’s right, not all of us are “definitively Black” and certainly what it means to be Black has carried consequences.



3) That’s my point, almost exactly, you can tell when someone is Black usually, but you never know if they’re gay! Well unless they’re really flamboyant or something.

Ah, I get it, if you are gay you don’t have to “look or act gay” and if you don’t act gay, you’ll be fine in society. Yeah, that’s called passing … well actually more appropriately covering. See, as a Black folks, I really hope we think deeply about oppression and how oppressive it must be to not be able to show your love for someone else. If I walk outside and decide to kiss a strange woman in the middle of the street I won’t get many strange glares (other than folks saying “Dumi’s a wild cat”) but if I love someone of the same gender and walk arm-in-arm with them down the street I’m likely to get screw faces down the block. As a result, we, heterosexual folks often say stuff like, “I don’t care what you do behind closed doors but I don’t want to see it.” Interesting… we live in a society were the physical expression of romantic love between people is common, but almost completely forbidden for certain groups. In order to be one’s self we ask people not to express themselves and “pass” or “cover” for straight. That doesn’t sound very equal or liberated to me. Can you imagine a community where love was the norm and hate was not what we used to regulate others behaviors? (that’s rhetorical)

4) Okay, I get that, but doesn’t it piss you off when they use the Civil Rights Movement for their movement?

Once again, what’s up with the us and them type of thinking. Gay Black folks have been around for a long time, to act as if they are not us is to deny part of ourselves. In fact, the most prominent voice and architect of the Civil Rights Movement was Martin Luther King Jr. His work centered on non-violence which he derived from Gandhi but he learned from Bayard Rustin who was a queer Black man. Gay, Lesbian, Bi and Queer Black folks have been at the center of our movement for rights as well as our cultural and social uplift, why try to write them out of history now? Or rather why not acknowledge the central role they’ve played in the collective Black struggle which should include lgbtq brothers and sisters? We can only say gay folks are piggy-backing on the civil rights movement if we don’t acknowledge the contribution of gay folks to the movement. Now has the equal rights movement around sexuality taken on some tropes that came along during the Civil Rights movement, absolutely! But all subsequent movements do that, in fact, a marker of a successful social movement is an adoption of some its techniques. But let’s not forget what the Civil Rights Movement was about! It was fighting to make the 14th and 15th amendments real!!! Those amendments legally gave Black folks equal civil rights but when we looked at how Black people were treated and what they could do, it is seen that it’s unequal. I think we can take a similar look at the Gay Rights movement which is simply fighting for the same rights that heterosexuals have, be it marriage, adequate healthcare, or to live freely in society.

5) I hear what you’re saying but God made “Adam and Eve” not “Adam and Steve”! We’re a Christian country and marriage is a bond before God between man and woman.

Ah, you got me with that one, I didn’t realize a rhyme could break down an entire situation. Oh wait, no it can’t. There is an entrenched myth in this country that marriage is exclusively a religious, often insinuated Christian, practice that the government sanctions. Not true at all, anthropologists have long observed and discussed marriage as beyond Christian and beyond the sanctioning of the state. It is true here that many associate the two, but that does not seem logical that it must also be seen as such. First, the mythos of the United States as Chrisitian nation is based on ignoring that colonies were founded out of the fleeing of religious oppression. How ironic is it that religion would then become the basis for oppression in 2009 and 1619 when non-Christian Africans arrived in captivity and quickly were proclaimed subhuman and savage. If you are going to invoke the credo of a nation, then I’d suggest you invoke the ones of equality and diversity, which means you are welcome to have your beliefs but your beliefs should not be the basis for impinging on other’s rights.

Now I know by this point you likely still don’t agree with me, but I do want you to see there is validity to a discussion about gay rights and the civil rights or more importantly gay rights as civil and human rights! I do want you to see that all to often we neglect and relegate a part of our people to inhumane and unjustified treatments through our active and passive condoning of covering. I do want us all to think about what MLK meant when he said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” I do want us to really grapple with the fact that if Huey Newton in the 1970s could see the connection, we should be able to see it in 2009. I wrote this because I worry about a people’s ability to turn a blind eye to injustice in a world and nation that often has suggested the unjust is just the way it should be. For a people who have fought for existence and rights, it should only be natural to continue that fight with our brothers and sisters.

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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. so, what did Barack say in response to your remarks? nt
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I'd be more interested in what Congress' response is.
They're the ones that draft and pass laws, not the President, but a simple search on the Internets would show you that Pres. Obama opposes any gay marriage ban. Just like I'm personally anti-abortion, but publicly (that is, for the public) pro-choice, the President personally believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, but publicly opposes any same-sex marriage ban.

Now, it's up to Congress.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R We have a lot of work to do. Even some DUers belong to anti-gay hate groups. nt
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. "We have a lot of work to do." No we friggin' don't!
Its not our job to fix them - its their job to fix themselves.

Its the 21st century - if they chose to be ignorant on this issue it is willful bias.

They can join in or miss out. I don't care - they make their own choices. F 'em.


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flow_urgirl Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Well at least..
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 10:35 PM by flow_urgirl
You don't waste your energy that way and just get on with it! Which is a good thing as I tend to site here for hours and need to do other things other than the mind although I am a social isolate..mostly yet desperately trying not to isolate myself so much to be around people and talk....a lot more!! arghhhhh!! Sorry, I feel the need to apologise as it is such a difficult thing to go through that I do not fully comprehend as straight. I am het woman, uggg, and marched in the Mardi Gras which you may or may not involve yourself in but I wasn't saying I was bi or lesb or queer, just was there to do it on the other side! Ha!

But then the mess that has been made wherever it stemmed from has to be dealt with if you want to get something done like gay lesbian or other sexual id marriage or partnership or commitment legally recognised. Which is difficult. Or death. Which is something do to with legal estates unless you can guarantee 100 percent that the people around and family and friends will all agree to do it regardless of the law according to the wishes of the dead now why shouldn't that be right for anyone? Why shouldn't that be a right for the dead to be respected in their wishes and to have a ceremony the way that would have wanted it? Or pets even pets of the deceased or of long term relationship breakups. Not even my issue personally but I am an involved person who is judgemental andf earful yet I believe in the rights of all who are not evil in religion or disruptive or foul to others. As long as they have not evilly cursed people and killed etc then they should have their rights to free life no matter what!!
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hypocrisyandlies Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Your title says it all...
"I'm for gay rights but..." If you have to throw the "but" in there, you aren't for gay rights.
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SouthernLiberal Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I am for human rights
I don't see any real difference between the rights I have, and the rights anyone should have. I don't care about the color of someone's skin, their ethic heritage, or their sexual orientation. I have to confess, it seems to me so clear, so obvious, that we are all just humans together, that I have never been able to understand any other viewpoint. Sadly, I do know people who hold other views, but I have given up trying to understand them.
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hypocrisyandlies Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Agreed!
And just for the record, in my first response the "you" was a universal "you" and not directed towards anyone.
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flow_urgirl Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. A spider does not ask for equality, yet battles for life
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 10:17 PM by flow_urgirl
I think there is a battle that wears down people that is really about change of the world. I have faith that the world does change as it is all around us in evidence that it does for both good and bad influences are at work. The rights of all are a real concern of mine. All beings have a right to exist, I think to the point where the overall harmony of the earth is maintained.

I have a multi faith dimension to my spiritual and religious life. I am Catholic, I am Pagan, I am Buddhist, I am Taoist. Whatever is fitting at the time. The Catholic faith has many influences that I feel are unuseful in this world today. Many influences over the political life over voting on homosexuality issues, gay adoption rights reported in the Catholic press that was freely given out at my local church. And the reported anti rights and homophobic statements which mentioned that they were being told they are homophobic and that they didn't think it was homophobia. The crutch of religion needs to become the spirit support of all beings rather than the political oppression and societal hatred or target of others hatred.

They are left well alone when loving and loved to a point, at a point sometimes of five seconds, people gain their religious peace. Which is barely enough for the continual life of peace and happiness that is deserved by all who deserve it. The people are left to their own devices when it comes to religious belief truly at the end of the day no matter how much family, society and culture attempt to oppress the right and freedom of gay marriage. It is a state of two being, two people who love each other and want to devote their time remaining on earth and if they believe it beyond that to infinity!

What I can't understand is how love and sex between two people is such a necessary target for other people to feel that it is their right to say that it is wrong or not allowed!! Or when people share their feelings or loving touches or kisses in public it is deemed wrong!! Where is the heterosexual pride march? Where do these divisions end and when do people just live in equality?!! I remember these articles from LOTL - the Lesbians on the Loose Magazine from Sydney. Well thats where I used to pick it up anyway as a non subscriber.

I am heterosexual and think you have such a terrible life to deal with if you are gay, yet you have to fight that for whatever reason the divine show us, maybe to sort it out on earth now and get it all cleared up so we can have peace. But where did it all begin to be wrong in some peoples eyes? Where did it begin to be wrong for people to live as they live?!! When did hatred seep in to the planet, who or what caused it to begin in the very first instance?

I marched in a Mardi Gras in the mid 1990's. In Australia. I said I don't know what I am. They said that's fine, come with us, be in the Mardi Gras, after they grabbed me on a train from Newtown to the Sydney parade in the mid 1990's. I was unregistered and just walked along holding a watermelon made from cardboard above my head, smoked part of an offered joint, had a sniff of amyl, and walked along in colourful velvet flares. I had a stolen soft toy with rainbow colours - stole it from the Woolworths in the city. And was filmed at least once and remember a very red face..after it was over despite the limited view I had of the crowds, I wanted to walk through again. To be celebrated by people is great and I am sorry that my confused state was not clear to me then, but I was honest as possible and didn't truly know my spirituality or my sexuality back then when I was about 19!!

Am now 31 and settling into life and becoming aware of a greater empowerment as a clairvoyant, psychic, animal healer, Reiki Master, Graphic Designer, freelance journo, and occasional bellydancer. I remain open minded and don't yet have a life partner to marry. I have a particular type of male beauty and eye colour that I just sink at the knees for!! So I wait for my man, and I hope that you can be free to marry your man too, if you are not just talking about it as an issue and are actually gay and involved personally!



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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Civil Rights are supposed to be for everyone.
That's kinda the point.
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. Gay is not like black in one important way ...
... it's easier to hide.

Fuck that.
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WVRICK13 Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
12. Maybe We Should Frame
the argument in terms of citizen rights. How can a government that defends freedom and equality under the law have different standards for a legal contract? That is the real question.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. I agree, gay and black are not the same thing.
Hating someone for their skin color is just cheesy. Hating someone for an idea you can only admit to, and can't prove or disprove is so absolutely MORE dangerous than skin-colorism they shouldn't even be in the same conversation.

I don't give a flip what anyone of any color has to say about marriage not being a civil right, if one happens to be gay.

Finally, I don't care WHAT anyone believes. Just don't act on it. I'm an adult American. I make my own decisions, not culture, not tradition, not some glory-days civil rights marcher who can't stand the thought of sullying their grand idea of fighting for civil rights for people of color without giving a damn what civil rights really means, regardless of skin color.

:rant:
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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. On the flip side, years ago, before civil rights passed in 1965,
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 01:37 PM by 4lbs
if a gay white male kissed a white woman he didn't have to fear for his life, but if a straight black male did it...

Even today, there are pockets of the country that frown upon interracial couples.

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Ukonkivi Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. I hope bumping something from November isn't too old.
Just to say this.
4) Okay, I get that, but doesn’t it piss you off when they use the Civil Rights Movement for their movement?
Why wouldn't it be?

There's a problem, a tinge of sound to that question that makes it sound the like person asking it could very well be confusing the word "Civil Rights" to be a racial thing. Whereas it simply an individual rights thing. I just so happens blacks were denied this, and therefor Civil Rights groups against blacks not having rights arose.

Such a statement either does not recognize the meaning of Civil Rights and it's independence from race.
Or the person doesn't realize that gays, asking for rights, is asking for rights. I mean, racial misconception or not, how can a person not understand that gay rights is a form of Civil Rights? Do they, people who say this, think that Gays are forcing ideology down the throats of others by fighting for the right to marry, is that what a statement like this means?

I don't understand such a statement like this. And I don't want to jump to racial conclusions about it.
But it's pretty clear to me that Civil Rights are Human Liberty. And that the right for gays to marry is Liberty.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
16. "Adam and Steve?" Why never "Amanda and Eve?"
These conservative Christians tip their hand by revealing that its really male homosexuality that makes them uncomfortable. These "values" advocates probably have no problem going back to the hotel room to watch porn with women only after giving their anti-gay speeches.
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