Can we come up with arguments for LGBT civil rights that do not rely on images from the

[hulklogan]

black civil rights movement?

There seems to be a great deal of backlash happening at the moment towards the LGBT civil rights movement for its use of certain images or comparisons that are related to the black civil rights movement. I would like to compile a list of these phrases so we can come up with our own images instead of appropriating those of other groups.

So far, as I understand it, these are some of the troubling phrases:

Comparing gay marriage to interracial marriage and Loving v. Virginia
Comparing civil unions to "colored drinking fountains" to illustrate separate but equal
Comparing the torture and murder of Matthew Shepard to lynching
Any use of the phrase "back of the bus"

Are there others that I'm forgetting? What are some illustrations or comparisons that we can use in our arguments for LGBT civil rights that do not rely on the imagery of the black civil rights movement?

I am not trying to start a flame war with this post, so please leave the flame-worthy comments out of the discussion. I think it is important that we try to find ways to illustrate our arguments for full equality that are entirely our own.

[MadMaddie]

1. I disagree that they should be seperate

In my oppinion I think they are similar.

The most important similarity is that many Black America is using the Bible to justify their exclusion of gays and that is the same thing the KKK did to Black America. It's so obvious yet many simply overlook it.

There was an article on Huffington Post discussing the NAACP and it's lack of response to the LGBT issues.

I will probably get flamed for this view point but oh well...

[baldguy]

2. All human beings deserve the same rights. That's the whole point.

Making comparisons of one group suffering discrimination to another is not only natural - it's necessary.

[ruggerson]

3. Every AA that I know IRL

thinks of gay rights as a civil rights movement. Every. Single. One. The only place I have confronted these bizarre objections is on this message board. The problem for us in the AA community is not the usage of phrases or shared histories, it's the traditional black church, which demeans and shames LGBT people of color. I think voices in the black community and the LGBT communities of color are far ahead of everyone on this. They are confronting their own oppressors with louder and louder voices. Sharpton, Young, Lewis and lots of straight people in the black power structure are our allies in the marriage fight and are moving the fight along. It's happening. Don't be discouraged by what you read on DU from people who are so breathtakingly bigoted and ignorant that they don't understand that we knew who we were in kindergarten and suffered "being different" from very, very young ages.

[MADem]

4. I know black people with the opposite view entirely, unfortunately.

They're of a certain age, and to an individual, religious--as in "church every Sunday, no excuses, get dressed up" religious.

FWIW, they don't subscribe to this message board. They also believe that being gay is a lifestyle choice.

[ruggerson]

6. and those people (and their white counterparts)

will die before they see the truth. Unless, of course, their favorite grandchild comes home from college to introduce his/her partner. Even then, change is unlikely.

This is a long term generational struggle. For the vast majority of people under 30, gay rights are a given. This is why we see the bizarre specter of Meghan McCain giving speeches to the Log Cabin Club and imploring her party to rid itself of its homophobia.

We've already seen the turn in the road. We've already won the long term fight, we're now struggling to make it a short term reality.

[MADem]

8. Well, that's how I know one couple--their favorite child (my old friend)

came home a few decades ago to tell them the truth. They didn't take it too well. Still don't. They've gotten to the point of "tolerating" but they're not in "Acceptanceville" yet and probably will die 'tolerating.' Consequently, when my friend comes home on the rare occasion, a whole group of us from way back in the day get invited over to make a crowd, flatter the "old" folks (we're all old, now!) and keep the peace. Really.

I'm WAY over thirty and I take a live and let live attitude. I always have, even before it was "fashionable." My attitude? It's not a "new condition," it's just a fact of life. It was before I trod this earth, and it will be after I leave it.

Why make life more difficult for people than it already is?

[Ms. Toad]

5. As to the last three, perhaps

but the first is a nearly exact comparison.

[imdjh]

7. I can tell you what I say when I'm called out on it. "You're right."

You're right, gay people didn't have to ride in the back of the bus- we had to run from the bus to our house and we couldn't tell our parents why.

You're right, gay people weren't slaves, we were felons guilty of a capital crime.

You're right, we weren't lynched in large public gatherings, we were lynched in the dark by teenagers with baseball bats, by individuals who claimed we made a sexual advance, by comrades in arms, and by a society which dictated suicide as an honorable out.

You're right, we weren't denied housing and employment because of our ancestry, we were denied housing and employment because of our identity.

You're right, people didn't assume that we were thieves, they assumed we were pedophiles.

You're right, we didn't fear rejection from strangers, we feared it from our own families.

You're right, it isn't the same.

[noamnety]

9. I wish you had left off your last line.

There are similarities, too many to ignore. And comparisons, many of which you've accurately drawn.

And there are experiences that are unique to each group (generational poverty, rejection by family, on and on and on). Nobody can say it's better or worse to be killed this way or that way, in the light of day or in the dark, by men with sheets or men with baseball bats. There is no worse, there is only a history of terrorism and oppression for both. Dying in slave ships, dying in gas chambers, there is no worse.

[imdjh]

11. I fixed it. How about now?

[imdjh]

13. You're right but there is also a dynamic in play which needs to be dispelled.

Maybe we can come up with the appropriate expression for it.

I am very much aware of the dynamic in play in which "gay people" are often thought of as gay white males in stylish townhouses who work in clean occupations and enjoy all the privileges of white maleness except these three little things: universal privilege, marriage, and military service. This is somewhat understandable, and I don't deny that being a white gay male doesn't make life easier. The claim is basically that I can't possibly feel the depth of gay history much less black history because I can in theory hide. We won't even go into the fact that this suggests that if a black person could hide then he would hide.

So that's the dynamic that is really in play, and is often stated outright by the "Don't equate your sin with my skin." folks.

What needs to be dispelled is that discrimination and harm done in the past and the present to gay people is negated by the fact that 74% of gay people in this country are caucasian and presumed to be privileged whether they are or aren't.

I'm also not going to pretend that some asshole calling me a faggot (much less a racial epithet) is going to bite into me like the same asshole yelling nigger at a black person. I've heard black people say, "That doesn't bother me, because I"m not a nigger." I can't say that isn't true, but it sounds like a coping strategy more than anything else. Yes, we all grow a tough skin, but some knives are sharper than others.

The point that I really try to make in those conversations isn't that my experience is the same as a black person's experience, it's that the hate directed at me comes from the same place if not always the same people and that it really hurts when people who do truly know how painful hate can be, can't see that.

[noamnety]

15. Thanks for the edit

I understand where you are coming from with all that, how civil rights are sometimes dismissed because they are presumed to be idle longings of the privileged when that obviously isn't the case. I think there is an extra dimension though of why black history is felt more deeply, which is that it's part of generational/family culture passed down and discussed from a very young age, when people are most impressionable. Growing up with images and stories and the knowledge that this happened to YOUR family makes the history personal and part of a person's identity in a way that doesn't happen in gay families - well, you can see the reason right there in that wording, "gay families." They exist, but most gay people aren't raised in them, they get their knowledge of gay civil rights history when they are older, from reading or from movies or sometimes from mentors and friends. I'm not talking about the current things that happen to us, participating in protests or experiencing discrimination sometimes in deadly ways, just about how we learn about the history before us.

I'm not arguing one way or another here about the ethics of appropriating images from the civil rights struggle, I'm only trying to explain in the interest of mutual understanding one aspect of why civil rights history might feel so much more personal in the one community, while in the other community it's often considered more of a tool in the public domain.

[omega minimo]

43. Great discussion. imdjh's post #7 is brilliant (didn't see before edit)

and what was in the midst of that insightful exchange was an acknowledgment of institutionalized white male privilege and authoriatarianism.

This is what keeps us ALL down, African American/female/LGBT and any combination thereof. That's why there are similarities and yet some differences are too specific and painful -- and why the suggestion of the oP and insights of imdjh are so true and powerful.

:thumbsup:

And why we're better off allied and focused on the real problems, rather than pitted against each other.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Mildred Loving's opinion varies from yours, or whoever's

And you know what? She has more standing than any of us here on the issue.

"I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people civil rights.

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about."

Now, you were saying who takes issue with Mildred? And what have they done in this world? Here is Correta Scott King's thinking on the subject:

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."
And on another occasion, she said:
"For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law...I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." On another occasion he said, "I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible." Like Martin, I don't believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others."

So tell me again who it is that is speaking out against Coretta?
What is their standing? They take issue with these heroic women. Why?

[ruggerson]

12. Because they think it's "demeaning" to be compared to our struggle

as if they have more moral authority than those heroes you mentioned.

:thumbsup:

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Of course

that is what the religionists said to Mrs King about it too. Of course.

[Tyo]

16. Why are we placing the onus on ourselves?

I shouldn't have to justify my rights as an American citizen to anyone. Screw that. If people want to deny me the same rights that the majority enjoy they need to tell me why. The onus is on them not us. Don't defend. Attack. We need to be the prosecution not the defense.

[Toasterlad]

17. Many Leaders of the 50's Civil Rights Movement, Including Coretta Scott King

...equate the civil rights struggle of African-Americans to the current civil rights struggle of gays today. They are wise enough to see that the underlying theme is the same: the privileged majority keeping down the oppressed minority. Unlike those who refuse to see the similarities in the struggle, these good men and women are not interested in playing oppression olympics. They understand that the oppression of ANY group of people is the oppression of ALL groups of people.

There is nothing sacred or holy about the discrimination that black people went through. It is not something to be revered and enshrined. It is a history lesson about how hateful human beings can be to one another, and it should be USED to teach.

[Sebastian Doyle]

18. Let's go back in history about 10 years.

Matthew Sheppard. James Byrd. Two horrible hate crime murders that took place right around the same time.

One was beaten into unconsciousness, tied to a fence and set on fire. The other was tied to a truck bumper and dragged down a gravel road until his body literally disintegrated.

Now can somebody tell me how it matters which one was black and which one was gay?

Both were murdered by shit sucking bigots, simply because of who they were.

Bigotry is the problem. And there's no kind that's acceptable.

[cecilfirefox]

19. Matthew Shephard was never immolated. Just beaten into a coma he never woke from. :/ nt

[Sebastian Doyle]

20. My bad... I could have sworn I remembered hearing he had been burned as well

Not that it really makes much of a difference after you beat someone to the point of their brain stem not functioning. :evilfrown:

[keepCAblue]

55. Clinton Scott Risetter was. So was Seaman August Provost

Clinton Scott Risetter of Santa Barbara was set on fire while he slept, because he was gay.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/mar/02/local/me-hate2

Seaman August Provost, after being shot multiple times, was set on fire.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/03/slain-sailor-shot-also-may-have-had-burns/

I am sure there are many, many other equally horrific cases of immolation. It seems to be a habit for many murderous bigots.

[JackBeck]

21. The pink triangle and Pride flag are images that are exclusive to the LGBT movement.

And they strive to include all persons of color who are LGBT.

"SILENCE = DEATH"

Another image and slogan that we can all embrace, regardless of the color of our skin.

I could share a few others, but ultimately what I have an issue with is when a white, gay person in this country casually borrows imagery from the African-American/Black experience , in order to drive home their point. If people of color were to use imagery that was ours without our permission, the language would be much different. Instead of borrowing, it would be "stealing".

"Comparing gay marriage to interracial marriage and Loving v. Virginia".

This is judicial precedent, so anyone that argues that another civil rights group should not look to this case as a basis to help establish a law that would cover other groups trying to gain equal footing on a Federal level should pull their head out of their ass.

"Comparing civil unions to 'colored drinking fountains' to illustrate separate but equal".

We should definitely work on finding a better example, instead of co-opting imagery that should be exclusive to the African American experience. There are plenty of testimonials on You Tube about what happened in New Jersey since civil unions became law. Our own personal stories should be compelling enough to convince the public that we are currently facing injustice.

"Comparing the torture and murder of Matthew Shepard to lynching."

Matt wasn't lynched. He was brutally murdered. And like lots of gay people who are murdered, it involves overkill. I've been trying to get people to talk about overkill for years around here, especially when it comes to passing inclusive hate crimes laws.

"Any use of the phrase 'back of the bus'".

I can't recall any collective effort from any group denouncing others from using this colloquialism.

[ruggerson]

25. I think the larger point

is that we SHOULD focus on the similarities when discussing the political aspect with straight, white people (or closed-eyed members of minority populations). It has resonance for them. Why would anyone in the AA community or the LGBT community be offended by comparisons? Of course we know that both group's experiences are utterly unique, but if we can draw powerful similarities that resonate with people, doesn't that aid commonality of purpose and ultimately lend more political legitimacy to both group's fight to live in an America that is both colorblind and orientation-blind?

[JackBeck]

30. I don't take issue with comparing both movements and looking at the similarities.

Anyone that argues that the LGBT movement lacks any similarities to the African-American/Black fight for civil rights struggle is an idiot.

My point, which was speaking to the issues raised in the OP, is that certain imagery should not be used just to simply make our argument more valid. Concepts such as "separate but equal" belong to every marginalized group. But the use of images that depict separate water fountains? That is not mine to use as a gay, white man. Those images speak to a specific time in this country's history that has nothing to do with my current fight for equality. Having a civil union instead of marriage is vastly different than being forced to enter a building through a back door and then segregated even further by having to drink from a fountain with "colored" inscribed on a plaque above me.

We previously were able to come up with our own imagery, like the ones I mentioned above. I think educating more people about the history behind the pink triangle, for instance, could be an amazingly powerful tool in making more people compassionate about our fight.

I find it quite arrogant, actually, when I see white men, regardless of their sexual identity, deciding at their casual leisure what should and should not be at their disposal for full use. Even though I don't enjoy heterosexual privilege, I can still easily access my male and white privilege whenever I see fit, if I choose to do so. Once I recognized that I actually still had privilege, that the "gay" didn't cancel out the other two, I became a lot more aware of what was going on around me, especially in regards to issues involving communities of color.

Also, I would hate living in an American that was colorblind and orientation-blind. I would prefer living in a country where our eyes are wide open and we can clearly see people for who they are both inside and out. Instead of hearing "I don't see color/sexuality", I'd rather hear, "I see your color/sexuality and it doesn't bother me."

[JackBeck]

38. delete.

[bliss_eternal]

41. wow, Jack...

amazing post! :hi::hug:

Quote:
Even though I don't enjoy heterosexual privilege, I can still easily access my male and white privilege whenever I see fit, if I choose to do so. Once I recognized that I actually still had privilege, that the "gay" didn't cancel out the other two, I became a lot more aware of what was going on around me, especially in regards to issues involving communities of color.

[JackBeck]

50. We've known each other online for a couple of years, bliss_eternal.

But I feel we finally found an opportunity to acknowledge each others' realness. Especially once all the distracting pettiness was removed that had buzzing all around us for far too long.

Thank you for your kind words both publicly and privately. As a community, my hope is that we will continue to grow stronger by building friendships like the ones developed over the past few days.

:loveya:

[ruggerson]

42. Well that's all I was suggesting

if all of this boils down to an argument over semantics, then I agree with a lot of what you say. Of course we should rely on our own imagery and our own stories, they, in and of themselves are indeed powerful and resonant. I've never seen images of separate water fountains used to make a point about marriage equality. I have heard people employ "separate but equal" (or "jim crow" in the metaphorical and abstract sense to mean specifically and only "separate but equal"), but I've never seen people use water fountain images or segregated bathrooms to make a point about gay rights. I would find the analogy rather inept. We should take care to remember that every group's journey is unique, which should, in and of itself, preempt pointless metaphorical flourishes.

(Btw, I've never even heard the phrase: "gay is the new black" until Mr. Granderson's piece deriding it.)

Since gay people of color have their own disagreements over what are and are not proper symbolic comparisons, I don't think it's a matter of "arrogant" white gay people deciding what metaphors to use. In fact I think that plays a bit into the notion that the gay rights movement is nothing but a "white struggle" with little bearing on, and little to offer to, non white communities. That is an argument that I've heard from those that do not understsand gay history and those that would seek to divide us or worse.

Your language is better than mine in describing iwhat kind of America we hopefully seek to live in. I would further tweak it to read: "I see your color/sexuality and I accept and value you for exactly who you are."

[bliss_eternal]

49. here's a few of the article links:

hope this helps! :hi:

Gay Is the New Black? **Advocate Cover**
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=94736


Gay Is the New Black...uh oh.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=97327

[Toasterlad]

53. Separate Water Fountains Are the PERFECT Metaphor For Civil Unions

I will never apologize for using such imagery, and I don't care who is offended. Separate water fountains, back of the bus...it's all separate but equal, which is EXACTLY where we as a society are with homosexuality today. Remember the saying, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? That's what we're doing. Because we didn't learn the first time.

Quite frankly, I find it very offensive as a white gay man to be told that I'm not entitled to use the same arguments and imagery from a struggle that is much, much MORE similar to mine than it is different. And I question the rationale behind drawing such distinctions. It's Oppression Olympics, and I have no time for such drivel. The Civil Rights Leaders from the 50's, the ones who have spoken out in favor of equality for homosexuals, have whole-heartedly endorsed the application of these arguments and imagery to the current struggle for equality. Their approval is good enough for me. Not because they're black, and I'm not, but because they were THERE. And, more importantly, because they GET IT. Oppression of any is oppression of all. It's not MY fight now just as it wasn't THEIR fight then. It's always OUR fight.

[noamnety]

22. One of the difficulties

in using strictly images from the gay community is that they generally aren't known outside of the gay community - so unless you are preaching to the choir they are meaningless. As a culture, we are taught in school about Rosa Parks and Birmingham. It's a common vocabulary. But gay is such a bad evil word that it can't be taught in our schools, we aren't even sure we can let our kids read a book about a straight couple if the author was gay. We certainly aren't going to be teaching about Stonewall. I'm ashamed to say I don't think I even knew of Stonewall until after I joined DU. I don't have any photographic images from it burnt into my head, not like I do of other civil rights riots, or Kent State. That's the primary reason that comparisons rely on appropriated pieces of history from other struggles. If gay people had been allowed the privilege of having a public history all this time, they wouldn't be standing here now without a way to reference it to others.

[cboy4]

23. Nice drive by OP

Unrecommended.

[tbyg52]

24. Why? I'm all for using as many arguments as apply, so

why would anybody want to eliminate the ones you suggest? They *are* applicable.

[Prism]

26. I will not surrender to homophobia

And that's what this entire nonsense about black imagery is about. If Baynard Rustin and Coretta Scott King said it's ok for LGBTers to build upon that legacy, that's good enough for me.

Don't let homophobes fool you when they attempt to cloak their bigotry with racial concerns.

[omega minimo]

45. you know better

[donco6]

27. Why?

No one has "dibs" on historical references, or upon the use of comparisons.

[NMMNG]

28. While we're at it

Let's not use the following lest we "offend" the RRRWers

Marriage
Family
Christian (According to them you cannot be both gay and Christian)
Man
Woman
Love
Commitment




People might like to pretend they "own" words and concepts but they don't. If they want to get offended because they can't stand the idea of those nasty LGBT people sharing words with them that's their problem, not ours. We shouldn't be forced to come up with an entirely new "gays only" vocabulary to appease bigots.

[omega minimo]

46. .

[Neecy]

29. Like it or not....

There are valid comparisons that can be made. I wouldn't argue degrees, or exact phrasing as you do in the OP. But there are parallels in our struggles for justice and I see no reason to shy away from that.

That said, I *do* think this 'gay is the new black' thing is pretty ridiculous, although the only place I've actually seen that used in a serious manner is the controversial article that's currently posted on GD-P. As long as racism and economic injustice exists in this country I think the phrase is pretty offensive. But I'd like to see something equally ridiculous dropped, which is that we can hide who we are, we can "pass" at will and therefore if we're discriminated against it's somehow of our choosing. THAT crap needs to end and fast.

[NMMNG]

31. "Passing"

I too am sick to death of the notion that we can/should "pass" to avoid bigotry and harm. This often comes from "Christians" who cry about persecution they face, and would consider it a horrible affront if they were told to hide their faith (don't wear religious jewelry, don't go to church, don't talk about faith, etc) to avoid such problems. So why is it we're supposed to hide who we are to avoid the bad behavior of bigots who choose to be hateful prats?

[Tyo]

33. Classic blame-the-victim mentality

I love it when they try to excuse gay-bashing with the argument that if we didn't "flaunt it" maybe we wouldn't be attacked. I guess no straight person can reasonably be expected to ignore something like my holding hands with my boyfriend in public. Hardly surprising if such provocative behavior drives some of them to violence. We were just asking for it.

[NMMNG]

34. They're always so big on personal responsibility,

and making people "pay" for their actions, except for when they're the ones acting. Then it's always somebody else's fault they did what they did. Don't blame the rapist, blame the woman for not wearing a burka and chastity belt. Don't blame the abusive husband, blame the wife who keeps "making him angry". Don't blame the gay basher, blame the gay person for not acting straight.

Nice to see you again, BTW. :hi:

[keepCAblue]

56. Many light-skinned blacks "passed" as whites to avoid bigotry....

What do you know, another parallel between the LGBT and Black civil rights struggles.

Oops, sorry, forgot we're not supposed to make those kinds of comparisons, lest we offend...

[ZombieHorde]

32. No, those comparisons are legitimate. nt

[Tyo]

35. In the eyes of many AAs apparently those comparisons are not legitimate.

I'm not AA, I'm the other AA, so I don't presume to speak for them but that's what it seems like to me. And that's fine. It's their history after all. Personally, I think that the GLBT story is compelling enough in its own. I don't see why we need to try to hitch a ride on the struggles of others. We need to stand on our own, make our own case and, most importantly, challenge those who oppose us to state their case. All they have really is religion and the ick factor.

[Smarmie Doofus]

36. I always thought the experience of Jews in Europe was a more...

... apt comparison. Centuries of ostracism ( note the "racism" in "ostracism"?)and...periodically... much worse. All rooted in superstition and misunderstanding. Always based on an idiotic insistence on (religious) conformity.


With overtones of moral and ethical superiority.

Driving many Jews into conversions and many more into "conversions" and driving most simply underground.

Sound familiar ?

Problem is most Americans are unfamiliar with any of this. But they do know about the "back of the bus."


>>>>here seems to be a great deal of backlash happening at the moment towards the LGBT civil rights movement for its use of certain images or comparisons that are related to the black civil rights movement.>>>>>

People who object to the comparisons with the AA civil rights movement are anti-gay. (Otherwise they wouldn't be objecting.) So I'm not sure "backlash" is exactly the right word here.

No analogy is perfect. But good analogies can help people see things in a fresh context. I'm not sure the onus is on us to "come up" with better comparisons. Some of the examples you listed are nearly EXACT analogies: What happened to Mathew Shepard? If that wasn't a lynching, what the heck was it?

[Tyo]

37. I agree

If we must use the someone else's struggle as an analogy for our own, it seems like the struggle of the Jewish people is reasonably close. Of course there are Jews who are not at all happy about gay victims of Nazi concentration camps being memorialized along side Jewish as victims of the Holocaust. Our inclusion apparently diminishes the impact and clouds the focus. Maybe it does. It's their Holocaust. We were just lagniappe.

I think we need to tell our own story rather than trying to sit with people who would really rather we wouldn't. We will fight for them whether they want our help or not. If they don't want to fight for us that's the way it goes.

http://www.forward.com/articles/107570/

[Smarmie Doofus]

39. It's beside the point that some Jews and some AAs...

aren't happy with the comparison. The parallels we make will stand or fall on their own merits.



>>>>New York State Assembly Member Dov Hikind, a Brooklyn Democrat whose many Orthodox constituents include numerous Holocaust survivors, has decried the planned addition as a distortion of the Holocaust’s meaning with regard to Jews.

“It’s easy to say, let’s include everybody, let’s be universal, diversity is great,” he said. But he added, “It just isn’t fair. It diminishes and really dilutes what the Holocaust is.”>>>>>

In this case, your talking about a minority of a minority of a minority. Hikind is a longtime anti-gay demagogue and the largely Hasidic district he represents is fanatically anti-gay. They've toned down their "sodomite" and "abomination" rhetoric in recent years ( We are a MUCH more politically formidable presence in the city now than we were in the 80's) but trust me, they hate us. And believe me, if the memorial just mentioned Gypsies, there would have been no brouhaha.

They are not representative of Jews in NYC generally... or elsewhere, for that matter.

[Tyo]

40. That's good.

It's not like I want to reject people who support us. I'm glad that they are there and we need all the help we can get. But...
In the end we have to rely on ourselves, on our own history, we have to look to our own teachers and our own heroes. Our cause is rational and just and we have suffered as much as anyone for simply being what we are. We don't need hitch a ride with anybody else.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. You make a very good point (also read your other post)

The struggle between the Jews and gays is not all that dissimilar. Considering I have grown up as a Jew, and am quite familiar with our history, I have often given presentations to Jewish groups and used "gay" to replace "Jew" and then let them know I was talking about Jews the whole time. For most, it drives the point home. The Holocaust is unique to us (Jews) in that the goal was to destroy us entirely, not so for the other groups (possibly the Roma, but they weren't seen as a "threat" just an "annoyance").

Jews and gays a comparison (bigoted version):

Jews undermine society (they are commies in democracies, liberals in dictatorships, money-grubbing in socialist societies, and free-loaders (socialists) in capitalist societies (as well as being greedy). GLBT undermine society by destroying the social fabric of male and female roles.

Jews try to destroy Christianity (Islam) and started with Jesus. GLBT try to destroy Christianity with their "lifestyles."

Jews are too powerful (do I really need to explain this myth?!?). GLBT are too powerful because they have so much free time.

Jews control the media and Hollywood. Gay men control Hollywood. (I should move to Hollywood..I am a double threat.)

Jews are rich. GLBT are rich. (I guess to positives canceled the other out...damnit!!!)

Jews think they are more intelligent. GLBT think they are more intelligent.

Jews only look out for other Jews. Gays only look out for other gays.

Now, reality....

Job discrimination against Jews has lasted for centuries, for GLBT, it is still a reality. Though, in some cases, one may not know the applicant is a Jew or GLBT.

Housing has always been an issue for both groups. Both groups often found the only places they could reside in comfort, outside of a self-imposed ghetto, was African-American neighborhoods.

In the concentration camps, two triangles were 1/8 larger than all others making them easier for the guards to spot, the yellow triangle (the Star of David wasn't always used) and the pink triangle (used for gay men).

Hate Crime statistics (FBI) show that Jews are more likely to be victims of a hate crime than all other religions/non-religious groups combined. Gay men fall into the same category when combined with other sexual orientations, including bisexual and lesbianism.

Where we see divergence...

Jews are accused of dual-loyalty to Israel, and before her creation, always trying to undermine the current form of government in favor of the enemy government. They are seen as spies/traitors if they show any interest in Israel or disagree with American (French, Russian....) policy in regards to Israel.

While not being accused of dual-loyalty, GLBT are often thought weak and easy to compromise, and therefore, a security risk (DADT and others).

GLBT prey on children, not something often seen in accusations against Jews, except in 'blood libels,' stealing Christian babies and children for matzoh.

GLBT are sexual deviants. Never seen Jews accused of this, but I guess it is always possible, just not common.

Jews will cheat you ("I jewed him down (got a good deal)." or "I was kiked on the price (paid too much).") Isn't it interesting that to "get a good deal" and "get a bad deal" are both described in anti-Semitic terms?

"Cock-sucker" and "took it in the ass" are very powerful images, especially when used against men, of getting violated sexually. This is also a clear indication of the misogyny so common in homophobia.

It goes on, but it is clear to see there are a number of similarities and a few not so similar things. The point is it does NOT denigrate Jews to have their history of oppression expressed by gays. It should be that way with ANY group. Yes, there will always be differences, but when it comes right down to it, the bigotry is still there and the pain, suffering, hate, resentment, feeling of powerless, and shame are the same be they Jew or gay...I should know, I am BOTH!

[omega minimo]

47. "This is also a clear indication of the misogyny so common in homophobia."

Great thread. There's your answer.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. What?!

[sui generis]

51. We'll use whatever works, and that would be everything and anything

And FUCK anyone who has a problem with the comparisons - a civil right is a civil right, PERIOD. Anybody who ever had to struggle for their civil rights should damn well understand, or as far as I'm concerned they BELONG in the back of the bus, seeing as they're volunteering.

How ya like that comparison?

I am sick to death of "people of color" saying we shouldn't coopt their struggle. We are all people of color, get over it.

[Sandaasu]

52. That imagery is important to making our case effectively.

Loving v. Virginia set a judicial precedent that there is a right to marry without having government tell you who you can cannot be wed to.

The fallacy of separate but equal was demonstrated very nicely in that fight, and we should make use of that as a warning that civil unions will just end up the same way.

The problem of people killing others who are unlike them is an ongoing problem. There are so many examples of this. The problem here for us is the same as it was for others. People harm us because they're afraid of people who are unlike themselves, and in communities where such thoughts are common, the authorities tend to look the other way.

The civil rights leaders of that time are supportive of us. The fact that some homophobes have some issue with us relating out cause to ones of the past should not deter us. They're not going to treat us any better if we give in to their demands. They don't have a problem with it because we're wrong. They have a problem with it because they wish to keep us down.

[WillParkinson]

54. Sorry, that's just silly...

Every group discusses parallels with other groups.

Religion.
Ethnicity.
Gender.

I'm certain that Jewish people might take offense to the Black Holocaust museum. I know there were Jewish groups who wanted to keep gays, lesbians and gypsies out of history as having been murdered during the Holocaust, but it happened.

Like it or not, there are comparable things between the civil rights movements that blacks underwent and the civil rights gays seek to acquire. Just as the Black Holocaust museum can find comparable things to the extermination of millions of people in Nazi Germany.

[Deep13]

57. Why would you surrender your best argument?

If some people are resenting it, it must be working.