How can we evaluate students?

[Taitertots]

It is critical that we find an unbiased way to evaluate students to determine whether or not our schools are effective.

Many people on DU seem to believe that standardized tests don't accurately measure how well students at a school are doing. I'd like to know what process they believe should be used to evaluate students.

Seems like right now the lack of ability to measure school efficiency means policy is guided by the blind leading the blind.

[elleng]

1. VERY difficult problems,

and none of us should look at them lightly.

Hope to read Diane Ravitch's book.

“School reform today is like a freight train, and I’m out on the tracks saying, ‘You’re going the wrong way!’ ” Dr. Ravitch said in an interview.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/education/03ravitch.html

[msongs]

2. oral evaluation is very effective, in combination with 1:1 interview and writing nt

[Orrex]

4. If resources weren't an issue, that might be a more attractive option.

I mean, right now we've got a teacher:student ratio of 1:40 in some areas. We're a long way off from 1:1 interviews, in terms of time or human availability.

In addition, I know plenty of very smart people who can't write worth shit. Some of them work as accountants, engineers, chemists, and the like. An evaluation based on writing is every bit as biased as an evaluation based on an aptitude for advanced physics.

I'm kind of a hostile witness here, in fact; my degree is in English with an emphasis on writing. As proof, I offer my sublimely eloquent use of the semicolon in the preceding sentence. :evilgrin:

[tonysam]

3. Teachers ALWAYS evaluate; that's what they DO as part of their JOBS

The issue is with standardized testing, which doesn't measure squat and kids don't take seriously. Besides, they are being "measured" against others and not really what they have learned.

[Taitertots]

8. Are grades an effective measure of how much a student learned?

I don't believe they are.

[Birthmark]

5. WHY should we evaluate students?

Isn't that the job of teachers? This obsession with testing is pointless and counterproductive. Education actually did exist before standardized testing.

[Taitertots]

10. WHY? So we can know if policy decisions are effective or not

Should our policy be decided by people with absolutely no way of knowing whether or not it is working?

What objective measure are we going to use to evaluate the performance of our education policy?

[Birthmark]

13. Is there some policy...

...that's going to change the subject matter that is taught?

Maybe what we should do is get the hell out of the teachers' way and let them teach the actual subject instead of implementing policies.

[Taitertots]

15. The libertarian approach

How do you know that will work if you refuse any objective standard for determining if it works?

The whole education system is based on a series of existing policies. How do we know if the status quo is worth preserving? I'd prefer some objective means to determine what policies should be implemented/continued.

[Birthmark]

19. We know what works.

We arguably had the best education in the world up until we started worrying about standardized testing.

If you're looking for some "one size fits all" solution that will produce amazing results in each and every student, well, it won't happen. Even generalized rules won't be of much help. Teachers and students are individuals. The interaction between teachers, students, and subject matter is complex. It always has been and it always will be.

The two worst developments in education in America are standardized tests and degrees in teaching. I'd be wholly in favor of ditching both.

[Taitertots]

23. Correlation isn't causation

We had the best education system before integration. But I'm not going back to institutionalized racism for a fantasy of days past.

You need to show that the presence of standardized tests CAUSED the drop in American educational quality. It is irrelevant that they happened at the same time.

[Birthmark]

35. You're doing it wrong.

Think it through, figure out your logical problem, and start again...this time without the cheap integration bullshit.

[Taitertots]

39. Just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean one caused the other

You need to explain why standardized tests CAUSE a decrease in educational quality. Otherwise it has as much support as the integration position.

What standard are you going to use to determine that education is better now than in the past?

[mike_c]

20. I do not believe that any such objective standards exist...

...and I say that after 20 years in higher education. Education is an entirely subjective process.

Look, I just gave a university zoology exam that a percentage of the students failed or otherwise did poorly on. Is that my fault? How would we determine that? Every single student makes decisions every day about how much time and effort to devote to study and learning. Until I have control of those decisions, how can I be held responsible for their outcome?

Teachers provide opportunities for learning, but we do not have much control over what students choose to do with those opportunities. Neither do we have much control over the time scales students decide to employ-- the process of integrating new knowledge is a lifelong endeavor-- I'm in my fifties, and STILL having "ah-hah!" moments integrating information I nominally "learned" twenty years or more ago. Should we fault my professors at the time for my not appreciating the full breadth of understanding they offered me then? Or is that partly my responsibility, as a student and LIFE LONG LEARNER?

[Taitertots]

24. The objective standard is the exam you gave

You wouldn't proclaim that they had learned the material if they all failed.

What would you think if everyone failed your test and got 100% on the same test when instructed by other teachers using different methods? How long would that go on before you took the opportunity for learning and changed your methodology.

[mike_c]

25. well, that's an interesting scenario but I don't think it ever actually happens....

Again, you're speaking as if teachers have full control over student learning, when in fact they have VERY LITTLE CONTROL. Remarkably, shockingly little. In the teaching/learning interaction, BOTH teaching and learning have to occur-- but they are manifested by two different people, neither of which actually has much control over the others' responses.

If the rather black-and-white scenario you suggest ever actually happened-- one instructor whose students all routinely failed, and another whose students all routinely succeeded, both teaching the same things-- then yes, I might agree that was evidence that one teacher was better than the other. Maybe. But really, that situation NEVER occurs, or is so rare that it might as well not be part of the conversation.

It shocks me to think that some people might believe that such a dichotomy actually exists in real classrooms. It doesn't, at least not in my experience.

[Taitertots]

26. It is an exaggeration

If all your students always scored lower than other students at a statistically significant rate wouldn't it warrant analysis into the difference?

If we scored a million students and factor X had a statistically significant correlation wouldn't investigation into factor X be worth investigating?

You are confusing very little control with no control. Are students going to have recess? Are students going to have a soft drink vending machine? Are students going to have 60 minutes per class or 90 minutes? Are students going to have 100 or 200 days in class? Should these decisions be pulled out of a hat or are we going to analyze their effects and decide what is best?

[mbperrin]

40. My students always score lower than the median at the school I teach in.

I am assigned only students who failed the TAKS test their 10th grade year. My US History course is the prep for the 11th grade TAKS test. I start with 180 students in 6 sections, 0% of whom passed TAKS last year, and overall, about 58% will pass the 11th grade TAKS (based on the last five years of results).

One of my colleagues teaches AP/IB. She has 90 students in 6 sections, and her pass rate is 95%.

Another of my colleagues teaches regular students, who enter his class at about the school rate for passing, 90%. About 90% of his students will pass the TAKS for him.

Your assumption about some sort of heterogeneous makeup of classes is simply not valid here, and the way the data reads to a stranger is that I am a really horrible teacher, whereas my principal assures me that the reason I'm on this detail is because of my good results - the two previous remedial teachers averaged under a 10% pass rate.

Magic numbers standing alone just don't tell us much.


The real measure of success for students is to look at their lives 20 or 30 years down the line and see how they did. I live in the same neighborhood I've taught in for three decades, and I see my former students all the time - 100% of the pharmacists at Walgreens here are my students, as well as the owners of two restaurants, manager of the car dealership, butcher at Albertson's, and a whole lot more; it's very pleasant; I get to meet their families, including their children, some of whom I have the pleasure of teaching.

[Orrex]

34. Depending on the subject matter and the format of the exam it could be rather like an IQ test

IQ tests are famously purported to measure intelligence, but in fact what they measure is one's ability to take an IQ test.


If all of the students in one class failed the exam, while identical students in a different class all got 100%, then it could be argued that the latter instructor was better at teaching the students how to take the exam, without proving that the students had learned the underlying material any more fully or correctly.

In short, there is no objective standard that applies equally to all students. And even if there were an objective standard, I'm not sure that you have any objective means by which you might identify the standard as objective.

[RandomThoughts]

6. That is really tough.

The evaluation process sets the teaching if used as the measure of success.


I would think, a 10 years out testing. After 10 years, check how many students of a school are in paying jobs, if they are happy, if they are not in prison, or have had violent felonies. Score more points for a person that is in a field considered helping people showing compassion(even if underemployed), and score more points for a field that indirectly helps society by advanced skills like entertainment, research, or science. Also the contentment of the individuals would be part of the score, basically are they content and happy and add to society in a way that most think is better. People that hurt society, or work in sectors that do not help society would be negative scores, while people that work in fields that help improve society through knowledge or compassion would be good scores.

Then take that score and compare it to last years to see if the school is improving over each year. However individual teachers would be held to less of an account, since the measurable effects of teaching really are long range effects and not short range.

From those scores you could find what systems do the best.

The thing is, this can be done now by comparing many societies, and can find what mix of teaching styles and courses are most effective.

[Taitertots]

12. That wouldn't measure if students are learning

It is also mostly subjective. Who decides which jobs "hurt society", "Show compassion", or "help society"?

It is also heavily biased against low income areas. It just punishes poor people by reflecting their lack of opportunities. Getting a job from rich daddy in an already wealthy area doesn't mean your school is good.

[Davis_X_Machina]

7. I believe...

...firmly in assessing them based on their times in the 40-yard dash, in pads. Or their vertical leap.

This prepares them for success in the real world.

[FLyellowdog]

11. Regardless of whether they are crippled or not....I agree.

[DrDan]

9. seems like I have been reading about whether standardized tests

should be used to measure teachers - not students.

[exboyfil]

14. Standardized testing is not perfect but it is a start

Math, grammar, and reading comprehension are all skills which can be tested. Knowledge of science and social studies can also be tested. What is done with the test results is the real question. Holding a teacher accountable based on a test given in November is ridiculous, but teachers who are way out of the box can be identified by testing at the beginning and the end of the year for those students who have been with the teacher all year.

Determining school accountability should be driven by market forces - while many parents do not take an active interest in their childrens' education, many others do. For example I am dissatisfied with certain aspects of my child's education next year, and I plan to Homeschool in certain subjects next year. It may be a drop in the bucket, but the school system will know why I took this action, and why they will not be receiving the head count money for my daughter next year (at least in the homeschool subjects which might be up to 4).

[stray cat]

16. they have to be evaluated individually over time - if all the students fall behind in one class room

that might suggest the class should be looked at

[mike_c]

17. evaluating students is unfortunately NOT an effective measure of success....

I know everyone WANTS student success on some sort of assessment to be an effective way to measure teaching and learning success, but it just isn't.

It would be if teachers could open students heads up and pour in knowledge, that is, if students themselves weren't the primary arbiters of whether learning is effective or not. But that's just not the way education works.

There are TWO partners in the process, maybe even more. Teachers are only one of them. The best teaching in the world, whatever that is, won't be effective unless students want to learn and are motivated by their own internal desires to work at it. And even when they are-- the best case imaginable-- real learning is something that takes place over longer time intervals than academic semesters, quarters, or years. I finished college a couple of decades ago, and I'm STILL integrating the information I learned, making connections, realizing what's important and what isn't, and so on. Learning is a process, not an immediate outcome. Education begins that journey-- it does not end it. Teaching is more about providing opportunities for learning than anything else, but it's up to students to decide how to act on those opportunities. Those decisions are not under teachers' control. They just aren't, no matter how much we like to think they might be.

[Taitertots]

18. Then what is an effective measure of success n/t

[Davis_X_Machina]

21. Asked and answered...

here.

[Taitertots]

27. The willful ignorance approach

I guess you have no position to address any issues with education. You have no means to determine if policies are good or bad.

[Catshrink]

28. I'm curious about your position.

Are you or have you ever been a classroom teacher?

[Taitertots]

29. Have you ever been the president? n/t

[Catshrink]

31. No and I don't presume to be an expert on foreign policy.

But, from your response, I'm assuming that you are not a teacher yet you assume to know all about education. Right. You do not understand education until you have done the job. Period. There is no substitute.

[Taitertots]

32. You do not understand government because you are not the President

There is no substitute.

You can't pretend that only people who are employed in a field are qualified to make statements about that field.

It doesn't take a policy expert to know that going to war in Iraq was wrong. It doesn't take an educational system expert to know there is a need for an objective measure of effectiveness.

[Catshrink]

33. Oh you can make all the statements you want.

But those in the field who know a thing or two have the right to call you on your bull shit. Clearly, you are an "armchair teacher," a person who believes he or she is an an expert on education because they went to school.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

22. partly, how students evaluate the benefits of their educations years later...

...but even then, we have to understand that their perceptions are governed by events that are not under teachers' control. See my comments about this above. I simply do not believe that any objective measures of education success exist. Sometimes crappy students succeed remarkably in life. Other times, successful students fail.

Each person brings something unique to the process of learning. Some are enthusiastic, others resistant. I think the focus has to be taken off of teachers, most of the time, and put where it belongs, on students and their various motives for learning or not learning.

[Taitertots]

30. That is impractical

How are we going to determine if students should have recess periods and if so how many/how long? Wait 20 years and ask them if they feel like they learned.
How are we going to determine how many days per year students need to attend? Wait 20 years and ask them if they think they benefited from it.


How are we going to determine the factors behind the various motives students have for learning or not learning without an objective standard?

[mike_c]

37. and that is precisely the point....

Real indicators of education "success" are difficult or impractical to measure, so we substitute measures that are easier, but which do not actually reflect the quantities we wish to estimate. It's a classic human mistake. There's a valuable lesson about the human condition in there-- if we can't measure how blue something is, but can estimate it's redness, we all too often measure red over and over and over, wondering all the while why our efforts to make those numbers increase don't lead to any greater blueness.

[FBaggins]

36. The first step is to make up your mind on WHAT you are evaluating.

Your post says the students... But then it looks like you want to evaluate the schools.

That isn't the same thing at all.