Need some advice, insight regarding my 3rd grader...

[CoffeeCat]

I have an third-grader, a daughter, who is performing well-above average in reading//reading comprehension and she
is a model student as far as behaviors go. However, she is having problems in math. Her teacher mentioned that
she was the only student, besides the special ed student, who did not pass a math assessment.

This teacher said she is giving my child until December, and if she hasn't improved, she is going to recommend her
for special education.

I am concerned about this. My child gets math. She can do the problems at home with me. Her issues seem to stem
from getting test anxiety and also from a personality clash with the teacher. My daughter had a terrible experience
with a babysitter. She was physically abused and I called the police. My daughter tends to clam up around teachers
who don't have calm personalities. I think a teacher, who has a more stern approach, triggers my daughter into pulling
inward. This teacher is very high strung. The stress just drips off of her. I think my daughter tends to go into
protective mode around this teacher. I don't see this as the teacher's fault. It's just my daughter's natural healing process.
She needs to learn that she's safe--even around people (and teachers) who aren't as gentle as lambs.

In fact, I do like this teacher. I think she really cares. I volunteer at the school a lot, and I have adored
all of their teachers. I'm just wondering if this teacher's stressful personality type is dictating this "urgency" that
may or may not be in the best interests of my child.

I think my daughter can overcome these obstacles if given some time. This is not an intellectual problem--it's developmental
and is stemming from some of her emotional struggles. Furthermore, she's the youngest in her class--with an early
June birthday.

This is a generalization--but I sense a manic urgency with this teacher to FIX THIS NOW. This could clash with my
belief that my child needs to gently "come into her own" and blossom in third grade--as my 4th grader did. I'm worried that all of
this extra testing, special accommodations and doting over her--will make her feel that there is something wrong with her when
she just might only need some space and time, and some extra tutoring--and everything will click. I hope that makes sense.

This is all new to me. I don't even know the right questions to ask. Can anyone provide insight into my situation
or any opinions?

[blm]

1. Talk to the principal about switching to the calmest teacher available. I think your case

deserves the special consideration.

[CoffeeCat]

4. That would be wonderful...

...but I invision that kind of request totally blowing up in my face. I would be, in effect, saying that
the teacher is the problem.

I really don't see a huge problem! That must sound like denial, but I feel that my child is learning to
negotiate her emotions, and that developmentally--she is unfolding. She just needs some patience and time.

I want to help my child navigate the situation. The problem is that the teacher is wanting this solved NOW, in
a way that I feel is pretty drastic. However, admittedly--I am a babe in the woods when it comes to special
education, so maybe there is something I am missing.

I appreciate your insight.

[blm]

13. I don't think you presented it as the teacher's fault, but, just an uncomfortable fit

for a child who has undergone recent trauma, and I think the principal would appreciate that distinction.

What state are you in?

[naaman fletcher]

2. A number of options..

Talk to principal, and is there any school counselor she can talk to?

You can also look at getting a private counselor, or send her to a private school if the principal won't help, but of course those cost mucho $$$.

[Ian David]

3. What if she wore ear plugs during tests and quizzes, so she didn't have to hear the teacher?

Or is the problem not just concentrating during tests, but also learning during the class?

[CoffeeCat]

5. I sense that there are general issues that...

...affect her learning in the class and the test taking.

[Ian David]

9. Probably best to move her to another class. And if she isn't already, to get her therapy.

Maybe also some kind of stress-management, yoga, or relaxation class, in addition to a support group.

[nykym]

6. Dear Coffee Cat I know what you are

going through, I think I would see about having her switch teachers first. Our daughter was having a real hard time in school just keeping up. If I remember correctly it was third grade too. We had to fight the system to keep her back, but that's another story. If your school district does testing for learning disabilities, please go that route. We did and it has made all the difference. Most times they cannot pinpoint a single problem but understand that there is something not working right. In our case she was in regular classrooms but given extra time and extra help. The learning disabilities label was removed when she entered 8th grade. She is now in 10th grade and and has been an honor student since entering middle school. Now in high school she excels in most subjects and has made the Junior Honor Society of which she has just been elected as president. Keep after the school to do something, monitor them as to their progress and remember it is not your daughters fault.

[CoffeeCat]

10. Wow, what an amazing success story...

Kudos to you, and your daughter, for her accomplishments. That is a wonderful story and I'm glad you shared.

It is important that I hear these stories as well. If there is some academic or special-needs issue that
needs to be resolved with my daughter--I need to be open minded about it and not fear it.

I'm sure you went through some of the same emotions...you don't want your child to feel that there is
something "wrong" with them. That can really do damage.

Sounds like you did a great job, navigating all of this with your daughter. :)

[LibDemAlways]

7. I would tell the teacher what you've stated here - that your

daughter can do the work, but that she is having anxiety problems in the classroom. I think you should arrange to meet privately with the teacher and the principal and express your concerns there just as you've done here. Of course you have to be extremely diplomatic in the way you broach the topic of the teacher's personality/style, but if she's truly a caring teacher she'll be on your page in wanting what's best for your daughter.

If there is another third grade teacher you think would be better suited to your daughter's needs, I don't think requesting a transfer is out of order. You know your child best and are her best advocate.

Good luck in handling this. I know school issues can be very thorny.

[FBaggins]

8. Be careful... and then be calm (and let her see it)

Be careful... because in many parts of the country, schools are given more money for kids with a learning disability or other special need. So there's all the incentive in the world to label your child - but that doesn't mean it will HELP her.

There's also (obviously) no incentive for the teacher to think that she might be part of the problem.

Now be calm. Understand that kids often progress in fits and spurts and that those pulses don't correspond to the highly planned/scheduled designs of the school. It's perfectly ok for a child to be advanced in one subject, but not another. She may just as easily reverse the two next year. The danger is that it will eat into her head that she's "just not good at math" when all these adults are racing around trying to "fix" the problem. Don't let her see YOU stressing out about it because she won't see the difference that you're really stressing out about the teacher's stressing out.

Be confident. They aren't "experts" who know more about your daughter than you do just because they're teachers.

If you have the time, I would take her aside and love all over her. Let her know how proud you are of her for how well she's growing up... what a woman she's becoming... how well she's doing in so many subjects. Then tell her that not everyone learns the way that some teachers teach. It doesn't make them a bad teacher... she just can't handle 25 kids with different learning styles and meet all of their needs. It certainly doesn't mean that your daughter isn't good at math.

Then take the time to work on her math at home. Don't stop when she "gets" the current subject. Move on to the next three so that when they come up in class she has already mastered it. That confidence could easily overcome her current perception.

I used to tutor kids with math "problems" and you would be shocked at how many of them have the skills they need... but just don't have the confidence. Build that confidence.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. That's a myth; school districts do NOT profit from kids with disabilities

School districts are reimbursed at a reduced rate for special education programs. After hiring extra staff, and finding space for the program and supplying it, school districts lose money. The Feds reimburse only 27% of the cost and until about a year ago, they only reimbursed 19%.

[FBaggins]

16. It isn't a myth

And I didn't say anything about federal dollars, nor do they have to turn a "profit" for it to be in their interest to do so.

Whether it is the case or not in your district I can't say... but there are absolutely schools where this is true.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. The federal govt funds all special Ed programs in all 50 states

I teach special ed. There is absolutely no drive to qualify kids for special ed so districts can make money off of them. It is ignorant and irresponsible to tell a parent that a school is motivated to classify children as disabled for the money the district will bring in.

[FBaggins]

22. Did I SAY just "special ed"?

And no... they most certainly do not fund all programs for children labeled in one way or another as different from other kids ("special ed" "special needs" "learning disabled" whatever).

States and counties have their own programs and requirements and whether or not YOUR program provides such an incentive is not evidence for all schools everywhere. It is ignorant and irresponsible to pretend that your personal experience is the way things are everywhere.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Wow. Which part of "FEDERAL PROGRAM" do you not get?

[FBaggins]

33. The part where it's accurate.

The IS state funding of education programs for special needs/ed/disabled/whatever students.

You said the federal government provides the funding (implying that whatever formula they use was the exclusive way it worked). You were wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. And states get the money from the feds

You really don't understand this do you?

[FBaggins]

46. That's simply untrue.

They get SOME money from the feds.

States and counties have always provided the bulk of education funding accross the board (both "special" and other). Do you REALLY think that they don't care about special needs kids?

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Talk about a strawman!

When did anyone say anything about not caring about kids??

And no, it isn't "simply untrue" that the feds give money to the states for special ed and the states allocate it to school districts.

[FBaggins]

55. Who said it? Why... you did, didn't you?

Why else would you assume that all such funding came from the federal government?

States and counties are the primary providers of education in this country. The feds have a growing, but still small role.

And no, it isn't "simply untrue" that the feds give money to the states for special ed and the states allocate it to school districts.

Nice try. Nobody said that the feds don't provide any funding... I simply corrected you when you claimed they provide all of it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Oh now you are adding "all"

You are going to have to show me where either of us said "all" funding.

I will repeat. The feds allocate funds to every state for special education. The states allocate those funds to individual school districts. This is not a money maker for states or school districts since the feds pay less than a third of the total cost. Until recently the feds paid less than 20%. So school districts actually LOSE money on special ed since they are mandated to create programs and provide services which cost money. Hence, there is no incentive to label kids as disabled.

That is the truth. Not my opinion, not the way I think it works, but the truth. And this is the reason it is incorrect to tell parents to be careful because there is an incentive for schools to label their children. That was your original point and you are wrong.

[FBaggins]

64. Feel free to explain your disagreement then

I was talking (clearly) about state and local funding and one of you jumped in to tell me that I was wrong and that the feds funded such programs. I kept saying that I had no knowledge of how the feds handle it but did know how many states split up the funding... and you kept saying things like "what part of federal don't you get"?

If it wasn't what you were saying... are you now admitting that you had to valid point to make?

I will repeat. The feds allocate funds to every state for special education. The states allocate those funds to individual school districts. This is not a money maker for states or school districts since the feds pay less than a third of the total cost.

And why does that matter if the feds aren't the ones providing most of the money? The question here is what incentive the local school and/or district has in identifying a poor performing student as disabled. It doesn't matter whether the feds do or don't give them more if the state DOES.

<i>That is the truth. Not my opinion</i><P>

I've given you several studies proving otherwise. At what point will you provide something other than your own personal experiences and opinion?

I'm just asking because some of us sleep at night.

That was your original point and you are wrong

It was my original point... and it remains correct. In MANY areas of the country (I neither know nor care whether that includes yours), schools absolutely will identify a child as special needs because they get extra funds. The OP should NOT assume that her child is disabled just because one teacher says that poor performance in ONE area means that she is. Mom should be very careful about potentially attaching a stigma to a vulnerable child when it's just as possible that the teacher did a poor job on that subject or (more likely) they child has a different learning style than the teacher is equiped to target.

Keep in mind the OP story here. The student is performing well in other areas and scored poorly on one particular assessment. The teacher has actually said that she's giving her a deadline to improve or she's recomending here for special ed. Think it through... does that make sense? Does the teacher REALLY have enough evidence to give mom such an ultimatum? What's your explanation for it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Good lord, you are dense

Once again. The state gets it money from the feds. So yes, it does matter that the feds give them the money for special education. Unless the state finds a money tree to fund these programs, they are dependent on federal funding. And since the feds don't fund 100%, every special education student costs money and does not bring in any lottery of funding for the state or the school district. Thus, there is no incentive for labeling kids as disabled.

I also don't see special ed as an ultimatum. It's not like the kids are locked in a jail cell and beaten daily for their difficulty learning.

I would also argue that yes, the teacher may indeed have enough evidence to make a referral to special ed. She is a professional who has been trained in state guidelines and district procedures. Once the student is referred, there is a clear process in every state that the district must follow which clearly outlines the rights of the student and the options available to address his/her disabilities and their impact on the student's learning.

[FBaggins]

78. The state does NOT "get it's money" from the feds...

they get SOME money from the feds.

The MOST that was ever even PLANNED was for the feds to provide 40% of the funding... and it NEVER got anywhere close to that.


You keep saying that because the FEDS don't provide enough per kid there is no incentive to mis-label them. That would be wrong even if the feds provided all of the funding (because a NON disabled kid doesn't cost as much extra as a truly disabled kid)... but that's not the point. The school (and/or the district) gets more money than the feds are providing. The incentive is the school's... not the state's.

It's not like the kids are locked in a jail cell and beaten daily for their difficulty learning.

Of course not. And for truly disabled kids there's nothing wrong with it at all. What you fail to recognize is that for underperforming kids who are NOT disabled, it attaches a stigma (internally as well as with other kids) that there's something "wrong" with them - when this is not the case (nor is it the case for truly disabled kids).

I would also argue that yes, the teacher may indeed have enough evidence

"May"? Oh please. Nothing in the OP gives such evidence. So that's just speculation.

Mom (the OP) clearly said "I'm worried that all of this extra testing, special accommodations and doting over her--will make her feel that there is something wrong with her"... WHY was your response that she SHOULD have her child designated as disabled?

[MichiganVote]

51. No they don't.

[FBaggins]

56. You're making yourself look foolish.

Is it intentional?

You're REALLY going to claim that you work in a public school and think that the county and state don't provide funding? You REALLY think the federal government provides all/most of it?


Really?

[MichiganVote]

31. Ok so where is this school district smartie? Where is your evidence?

[MichiganVote]

28. And as we all know, the Federal Gov't has done a piss poor job at it as well.

[MichiganVote]

21. Your position is in error and I work in special ed. which is more than you can say.

Read my internet lips. Public Schools Never "make money" from the special ed. kids, the certification of special ed. kids or ANYTHING having to do with specialized instruction which COSTS money. So get over it. You're wrong and proud and I are right.

[FBaggins]

23. Once again... if you want to build straw men... fine.

Just don't expect me to pretend that this is my position.

Nobody said they "make money". A "Fiscal incentive" does not mean that somebody makes a profit. But many schools DO, in fact, get more money when they classify students in any one of a number of catagories.

And what makes you assume that I have no experience in the area?

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Semantics

You said in many parts of the country, schools are given more money for kids with a learning disability or other special need. So there's all the incentive in the world to label your child

Telling you that you are mistaken is not a straw man.

[FBaggins]

30. It is when you make up what I said

Morover... I'm not wrong.

It's a simple fact (and there are MANY studies to demonstrate it) that states that have funding formulas based on the number of children in one of these categories have statisticaly signifcant higher rates of increase in classifying kids into a funded category - compared to states where funding does not rely on such categories.

There ARE parts of the country (most states in fact) where schools DO get more money based on the number of kids classified as LD or special needs.

Trying to spin that as "profit" isn't honest... because that isn't what I said.

[MichiganVote]

So which states? Which studies? You put forth the assertion, where's your evidence?

[FBaggins]

34. How many will be enough for you to admit your error?

Just so I know how much time I'm wasting correcting you.

Your knee-jerk reaction implies the number approached infinity.

[MichiganVote]

37. You stated "most states" receive "more" money. Sounds like a late night for you. Better have at it.

[FBaggins]

39. Avoiding the question, eh? AND building another straw man?

What a surprise.

I stated that most states PROVIDE (not "receive") more money to schools based on a funding formula that weights special needs kids heavier than others.

Once again... give me a number.

[MichiganVote]

42. Waiting for your evidence darling. Cough it up.

[FBaggins]

44. I thought as much.

To afraid to say three studies... or six?

I know... it's because you know how it would make you look after they were posted. I suppose I can give you a pass.

Here are a few quick ones:

The Impact of Fiscal Incentives on Student Disability Rates

http://papers.nber.org/papers/w7173.pdf

The Effects of Fiscal Incentives in Special Education: Evidence from Capitation Finance Reforms

http://client.norc.org/jole/SOLEweb/9055.pdf

Special Education Financing in California - A Decade After Reform

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_809SLR.pdf

[MichiganVote]

49. One state down and "more" to go. And you really should read your own articles more closely.

[FBaggins]

58. Oh please.

Those aren't all one state... and don't even pretend you've read any significant part of them.

You wouldn't have made your ridiculous comments if you had.

[FBaggins]

60. Nine more states for you.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~edhuey/SE_FinanceReform_8-31-09.pdf

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ807907&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ807907

Don't forget to cry "uncle" when it hurts too much. :)

[FBaggins]

65. No reply "darling" ???

I can keep going.

Emphasis mine.

Growth in special education spending may mask a shift in regular education
funds resulting from a willingness by some districts to classify as
“special” children whom, in 1967, were considered within the normal span
of learning styles teachers confront. New classifications may result from
greater sensitivity to causes of learning difficulties, a desire to relieve regular
teachers of disciplinary problems or the burden of special attention some
children require, or an attempt to take advantage of state reimbursement
formulae that allot more dollars per pupil for special education students.
Reimbursements may be a means of effectively increasing compensatory
education spending, if common academic disadvantages of low socioeconomic
status are the real bases for special education classification. Lines
between special and regular education placements are indistinct; wide variations
in district practices are evident. It is widely believed that Northeastern
districts are more prone to claim that children with learning problems need
“special education.” Our data may support this: in 1991, Fall River and Middletown
each spent 22% of all funds on special education, more than other
sample districts.30 Claiborne and Spring Branch spent 12% and 13%, respectively;
remaining districts spent 16% to 18%.

Where’s the Money Gone? Changes in the Level and Composition of Education Spending - Rothstein

Here's a good rebuttal by someone who disagrees that the incentive has actually impacted designation rates.

Note that he provides some good counter arguments to earlier reports' conclusions - but NOT to the fact that the schools get more money if they pad those rolls. He just questions whether their behavior is actually affected by it.

www.csef-air.org/publications/related/greene_forster_comments.pdf

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. LOL I posted your exact words! That's not making it up.

You're on a roll here. :rofl:

[FBaggins]

48. Sure it is...

It is when you "post my exact words" as a defense that your PRIOR strawman wasn't one. You said that I claimed they "made money" on the designation AND the previous post said "profited".

Since I never said either... "posint my exact words" is still a strawman when you're claiming it means I said something I didn't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. "more money" and "incentive" don't imply profit??

Good grief. You just can't admit you are wrong. You cautioned this parent to be careful because schools label kids to get more money. Two of us who work in the field are telling you you're wrong. And you are too proud to admit it.

How sad.

[FBaggins]

59. That's correct.

Perhaps you're limited to an "elementary" understanding, but if you've ever taken a serious economics class you would learn that "incentive" and "profit" aren't the same thing.

Two of us who work in the field

You don't, in fact, "work in the field". You provide the end service. That's like a car mechanic claiming that he knows all about how the funding of a rebate program works and how the auto company is hoping to restructure their debt.

Tell me... WHY would the NBER publish papers looking at the impact of fiscal incentives on designations of students if there was no such thing?

Why didn't they just say "doesn't happen" ? They could have saved lots of time.


Note - there are other possible incentives that aren't financial in nature. I don't know enough about the post-NCLB rules, but in some areas "special needs" children were not included in standardized test reporting. I have a coworker that says this was the case just a couple years ago here in NC, but I have no personal knowledge of this. You've no doubt read of schools/teachers who have cheated in order to report better scores... would you put it past them to take some of the lower-performing students out of the pool by classifying them as "these kids don't count" ???

[MichiganVote]

26. Once again, schools do not earn, make money or have any fiscal incentive re: special ed. kids

Schools do not get more money they get less. What mixed up muddle heads who don't now what they are talking about write on the internet is shit about "count". Count refers to the children who are counted as being enrolled. There is no "more" money when a child is certified as special ed. Factually on a daily basis it costs districts more money to instruct these children. The Feds provide some money to states from a mandate that has never been fully funded. Hence, the state money never does cover the full costs of educating special needs kids. THAT is the truth.

Your lack of experience is evident to anyone who does work in this area and I do. So beg someone else to argue with you.

You are wrong. I am right.

[FBaggins]

36. That's nonsense.

Riight... they get LESS money for special needs kids.

Did you expect anyone to believe that?

Factually on a daily basis it costs districts more money to instruct these children.

Of course that's true. If they ARE disabled.

What you're missing is that the school has to educate the same group of kids. All that changes is the label and the amount of dollars the school receives.

[MichiganVote]

38. My God, I don't know how I missed it. You clearly must work for the Dept. of Ed.

They're the only ones I know who can claim such a monumental lack of logic.

[YvonneCa]

43. And then they must provide services in the district...

...or send the child elsewhere for services and pay for them.

[MichiganVote]

45. That's right. And IF a child is sent to a specialized program out of district, there is -0- money

received in district for the child. But the district must absorb the costs of transportation and in some cases of an aide for the child. Plus any special instructional supports. That's called tax money.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. My district spent over a million dollars last year on kids sent to other programs

The expense is just incredible.

[FBaggins]

66. I agree.

There's no debating that for truly significantly disabled students, the costs are well above any current funding formulas.

There's no incentive to identify a child as special needs if the kid will be sent out to other programs.

But that's also clearly another discussion. There would be no financial incentive for doing so. There MIGHT be an incentive for a school to make such a designation to get rid (I don't mean that in a bad way) of a child who was too much work for a local school but whose needs could be met at a specialized facility. But that's why we have such programs. You can't question their motivations there. But the OP would know if her daughter fit into such a need.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. "All that changes is the label and the amount of dollars"

You are leaving out a whole bunch of other stuff. Like specialized instruction, related services, accommodations, modifications, transitions plans, transportation . . .

In bizarro world, I guess you assume we just label kids, collect all that money and go home!

[MichiganVote]

52. Yup. School districts just rolling in dough these days.

[FBaggins]

53. Again... you assume the child IS disabled.

If a school really has a bunch of disabled children, their expenses will be much higher... and the extra funding is unlikely to cover that.

But there is little to no accountability for spending on each individual child. The school can provide specialized instruction WITHIN the school at a far lower expense (since the child doesn't actually have the special need that is so expensive to meet).

Once again... the statistics are far simpler than this debate. States that provide funding to schools based on how many kids are designated "special" see far higher rates of such designations than states that don't.

And when California switched from one funding method to another, the disability rate fell rapidly over the following few years. The obvious physical disability rate barely changed... but the discretionary identification of underperforming (but physically healthy) children as disabled dropped rapidly.

Why do YOU think that happened?

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Pure hyperbole with no links

You aren't even worth responding to anymore.

[FBaggins]

68. See posts 58, 60 and 65. n/t

[FBaggins]

69. Lol! Game, Set, and Match proud2BlibKansas

Sorry I didn't look at your posting name before now.

You say that you work in special ed and your posting name says you're from Kansas.

Can you please explain for the rest of the board how your state's "catastrophic aid" funding works for special ed?

Specifically, if you aren't in Blue Valley, Olathe, or Shawnee Mission districts, can you tell the board how much less funding you're receiving per student because those three districts have suddenly discovered that an unusually high percentage of their disabled students have catastrophic disabilities?

And, of course, if you are from one of those districts can we all laugh now? :) 85% of newly designated "catastrophic" students come from one of those three districts and roughly 70% of state catastrophic aid funding now flows to those three districts. Of course these districts would NEVER mislabel a student for more money... so could you please link to stories of the natural disaster (or other) that actually crippled so many of your kids over the last two or three years? The easiest disaster story will be found for Shawnee Mission. They had no catastrophic claims until this year when they have 333 - shifting almost four million dollars from other district's special ed funding to their own. Those poor kids. It must have been horrifying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Fail.

I don't teach in Kansas.

You need to stop now. You are way out of your league here.

[FBaggins]

76. Lol...

we're not even playing the same sport.

Ok.. so your posting name doesn't reflect where you live.

I note that you can't respond to the issue raised. Care to look into it?

I didn't think so... you can just go on asssuming you actually know what you're talking about.

Let's hope that your students are more open to correction.

[donco6]

97. Catastrophic aid

First of all, your tone is really nasty, and I hesitate to even respond to your questions as it appears you believe you know everything already and delight in jabbing others for some reason.

Be that as it may, the term "catastrophic" has nothing to do with a natural disaster. It's simply the term the feds use to refer to students whose actual costs exceed 3.5 times the district's normal per pupil funding. When the district has a student requiring a court-ordered placement, for example, it's fairly common for the costs to exceed $40,000 per year. In that case, the district submits paperwork and they receive a supplement to pay for these identified costs. It's a reimbursement, so the district has to demonstrate they already spent the money prior to asking for the reimbursement.

[FBaggins]

103. Thanks donco6

I understand what it means. And the "nasty" tone is simply because I gave a reasonable (and accurate) caution that some schools mis-label students for reasons other than just a mistake... and others wanted to pretend that it simply never happens and took offense (and offered more than their fair share of offense and "nasty"). They were wrong and I documented plenty of examples. I have seen no acceptance of this on their parts... they just faded away.

The "natural disaster" was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying "you know and I know that there weren't REALLY 333 kids who were suddenly catastrophically disabled in one year in one district" We all know that the district was lying.

Now... they felt they had a good reason to do so. They were badly underfunded for special ed and felt that other districts were getting a disproportionate share of spec ed dollars. They found a loophole and exploited it. Not to turn a "profit", but to secure badly needed funding. The problems with this are clear:

1) They lied.
2) Other districts lost millions of dollars in THEIR spec ed funding because they lied (an average of $1,100 per unit).
3) 333 kids were labeled as catastrophically disabled when (with a few exceptions) they weren't.

This happens all around the country. I've seen a badly-funded inner-city school designate a number of poorly-performing kids as "disabled" because they needed a reading specialist and couldn't get one in the budget. The kids weren't disabled... just disadvantaged. Label them disabled and you can bring in that specialist and teach some kids how to read.

That's not a "profit" motive. The motivation is that same as any good teacher... to help kids learn.

This happens all across the country and pretending it doesn't is naive at best. Another example I gave is the school district that receives a flat amount per disabled student. Some kids require tens of thousands of dollars in assistance and others just need to be shifted from their second grade class during reading periods and into a smaller class led by an early reading specialist. Depending on the school and the number of kids already in the program... this may cost nothing at all (oh... sure... paperwork and time... but not necessarily a budget line). If you have a non-disabled child who does well otherwise but is a little behind on reading... who does it "hurt" to label him as mildly disabled? You can then put him into the group getting the specialized help and the school gets a lump sum that doesn't really have to be spent on him. That means we can fund the more expensive kid who isn't getting the help he needs right now.

What I'm saying is that the motivation may be sound (if perhaps less ethical in execution) and it isn't "profit"... AND the incentive to do this is built into the structure of the funding formula.

It happens in business all the time. A manager has a $10,000 budget for conferences and has only spent $8,000 of it when the year is almost over. If he doesn't spend the rest then he loses the $2,000 left over AND next year's budget is reduced by $2,000. So what does he do? He finds a conference that they wouldn't otherwise attend and sends someone to that conference. It isn't how the system is intended to work... but don't pretend it doesn't happen.

ALL I was telling mom was to watch out for the possibility that the teacher/school may have different priorities than she has. They care about her daughter to be sure... but not as much as she does... and the recommendation MAY not be because her daughter is actually disabled. Plenty of teachers here have read the story and said "that doesn't sound right".

What nobody seems to "get" is that there are only three possibilities in this scenario:

1-Daughter isn't disabled but teacher misidentifies her as such because she doesn't know what to look for.
2-Daughter isn't disabled but teacher misidentifies her as such because she has another priority.
3-Daughter is disabled and mom has been given appropriate evidence of this but is hiding it from us for her own purposes.


People seemed to take offense that I thought #2 was possible. I happen to think that both #1 and #3 would be more insulting.

[Kerrytravelers]

105. If you'd like an observation from someone who didn't "get into it with you" and has no motivation to

do so, then I will say the following:

The frustration came from your post #8 in which you said the following:

Be careful... because in many parts of the country, schools are given more money for kids with a learning disability or other special need. So there's all the incentive in the world to label your child - but that doesn't mean it will HELP her.

The Special Education/Special Day Students educational funding takes priority above general education and gifted education. Schools aren't given just "more money" because of a label. That money is designated for that particular student. There is absolutely no direct monetary profit or monetary gain for a teacher to push a student into special day classes, or for a district to push this, as the money goes directly to the student's educational services, many of which must be brought in from outside sources. I personally deal with this every day. Every time one of my independent study students receives special ed services, I do not benefit, nor does the school or district. The money is allotted from the state to the particular service provider. As the teacher of record, I have to sign off on this, so I know exactly how much each session costs, etc. There really isn't any debate on how this works.

Be confident. They aren't "experts" who know more about your daughter than you do just because they're teachers.

This really comes across as completely disrespectful. I can't tell you how taken aback I was by that statement. It was really insulting.




Other suggestions in the post were fine. Confidence building. Working ahead. All fine. But there was a glaring error in regards to funding and quite an insult. That really rubs people the wrong way, regardless of your intent when writing.

Take it or leave it, but this is just an observation. Teachers are dumped on all day long, and we are used as political pawns. We are in the trenches, dealing with not just educating, but we're also social workers, police officers, counselors, baby-sitters, we buy our students clothes when they need them, shoes when they outgrow them, breakfasts, lunches and dinners when students are hungry, we make home visits to check on their welfare, we have to make the painful CPS calls, we are the ones who buy classroom materials (papers, pencils, desks, chairs, books, etc.,) I've even had to buy my classroom heaters when the weather turned cold and the heat was turned off. And when we're told that we're not "experts" and have some sort of monetary incentive to push a kid unnecessarily into special education, well, yes, we bristle a bit. The whole thread was taken off track by the side conversation and subthread regarding funding, etc. CC came here for advice from educators and perhaps other parents who have faced the prospect of special ed with their children.

In regards to CC's situation, this teacher may just be young and dumb, although I think, according to CC's account, the teacher is actually recommending Resource, which is a completely different subject from Special Day class. Resource is special education, but it doesn't come with the special education/ disabled label that CC first understood it to be from the teacher.

Again, take it or leave it, but from an outside perspective, that is where the issues likely began. And, as I stated in another post (somewhere in this forever long thread,) I'm not interested in rehashing and redebating. I'm not intending to argue, but just make some gentle points. I hope you take them in the spirit in which they were written.


kt

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. +1

[donco6]

79. I agree with everything, except -

your assertion that schools would purposely label a kid special ed just to get more funding. That's preposterous. The cost of delivering additional services required for kids who are categorized as special ed FAR FAR outstrips any additional funding we get.

But this kid shouldn't be considered for special ed anyway, IMO. Being behind in one class is not an indicator in any rubric I've ever seen. I think this teacher doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

[Kerrytravelers]

86. "They aren't "experts" who know more about your daughter than you do just because they're teachers"

Actually, it isn't the classroom teacher who will do the assessments for Special Ed, but people who do specialize in specialized testing. I am an Educator work in a very specialized Independent Study Program and many of my students are actually Special Ed students, which is why they are with me to begin with.

[OregonBlue]

11. I agree with most posters here. Begin with the teacher. If your daughter has no problems with math

at home, it is not her ability to learn. You need to meet with the teacher and point this out (very diplomatically). Ask the teacher for advice about how to help her in the classroom situation. If there is a school counselor, definitely get advice there. If the teacher doesn't respond, you must go to the principal. It will not be good for your child to be placed in a remedial class if she doesn't actually need it. You have to be her advocate now. That's your job.

[CoffeeCat]

18. Thank you---

...for validating how I feel.

I feel as if this teacher wants me to immediately agree to special ed. She wanted me to agree to it during
conferences.

As you said...I am my child's advocate. It's my job.

My child has some emotional issues that she is working through, and it is affecting her classroom performance. She
has the brains, she just needs some time. That doesn't mean she needs special education.

I am open to learning more about where my child is. I'm not ruling anything out--but my gut tells me that putting
her in special ed is like calling a firetruck to put out a fire because you have a tree that's not blooming. I feel
that the wrong solution could really harm her and I am scared.

I need to get my ducks in a row--find my own specialists, get some testing done and come up with a plan and tell
the school that this is what we're doing---and we'd appreciate their help and support.

My daughter does have a therapist that she saw after the trauma. I'll give her a call and go from there.

Thanks so much for saying the very words that I needed to hear. Sometimes professionals just want you to
defer to their expertise. Even if it's wrong.

[FBaggins]

81. Bravo Mom! (Testing recommendation provided)

You're right... you're her advocate and it is your job. It sounds like you're on the right path and I'm confident that your daughter will thrive with your loving support.

It MAY be, when all is said and done, that your daughter learns differently than others (call it whatever you like). There's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing to fear - as long as you are there supporting her. I understand the fear of labels and social stigma, but you shouldn't avoid the right program if it really could help her. That said... you're right to think that it's way WAY too early for that determination.

I recommend that you consider the Woodcock Johnson Test of Cognitive Abilities. I've used this with my kids for a few years now and the results are VERY useful. Find a testing company that has someone you connect with who can sit down and observe the entire test (this is common). That can tell you more than just the raw test scores. She will likely be able to tell you WHY your daughter missed a question… not just THAT she had. The testing is not outrageously expensive. It will also tell you where your daughter is advanced… and how far advanced she is.

My younger son, for instance, hit a roadblock with long division with remainders when the numerator hit three digits and the denominator had five. This wasn’t really a concern, because seven year olds don’t “need” to master 5th grade math on their first attempt, so our usual reaction would be to set it aside for awhile and do something else – then come back to it. But he continued to have problems when math had always come naturally to him.

The proctor (or whatever they call her) for the WJ battery pulled us aside after the test and confirmed that he had trouble with these problems, but told us that he had no trouble at all with the concepts… it was his handwriting. His fine motor skills hadn’t developed to the point where he could write all of the numbers small enough and keep them all lined up. It didn't hurt him with the shorter division problems because he was just holding it in his head, but couldn't with so many digits. Instead of 6-8 problems per page we printed one out large on a single sheet of paper… he had no trouble.

[donco6]

80. I totally agree. For the teacher to even suggest this based on one class -

is total BS. Special ed evaluation has to be based on a whole spectrum of issues. I would talk to the principal.

[Sabriel]

12. I advise independent testing, so you go in with backing of your own

We had our daughter tested independently and got quite different results than the classroom teacher, for many of the same reasons you list above.

Once you know her abilities/strengths/needs through independent evaluation, you might have some different things to say to administration.

Keep her out of special ed any any cost. We resisted the push to label (mostly because we're both educators), and we've never regretted it.

I agree with the wise person upthread who advised lots 'o love, respect, reinforcement, and discussion. Your daughter shouldn't be made to feel shitty just because of one aspect of what can be a dehumanizing, alienating system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. That can be very expensive and not always covered by insurance

I would recommend checking your policy first.

[Sabriel]

17. You're right; we paid for it out of pocket

We found a children's psychologist who offered sliding scale services.

[CoffeeCat]

19. Great advice...

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. That is sound advice, because right now--I'm not
completely sure about the answers.

I just feel that the school has the wrong answer right now.

So, was the school pushing to do the same thing to your daughter?

If I may ask, when you produced your own set of data--based on professional experts--was that difficult for the
teachers who were recommending special education? Did they see it as an attack on their own expertise and
opinions?

I am not sure--and I hate to speculate, but this is what I sense--that the teacher cares about my daughter
and has her best interests at heart--but there's this frenzied urgency I sense. I don't know what it's
about! Maybe she feel that my daughter's poor performance reflects negatively on her? Maybe she's
under a lot of pressure to solve this NOW...I just don't know.

I wonder if when a child is labeled "special ed" if there could be some relief--because that means the problem
is with the child--and not the teacher. I don't know, I feel this is the wrong decision and I don't understand
the dire urgency to make such an ill-proposed decision.

Just thinking out loud...

[MichiganVote]

24. STOP. Now listen. And I will tell you what you will do.

First, do you like and trust the principal of the school? Do you even know the principal? Then go to that person and lay it out. Tell him you would appreciate it if your daughter could take her tests in his office or with another teacher to see if her test scores improve. Did she seem to relax with her teacher from last year? Could that person help? Is there a school counselor you would like to refer her to. If the problem is performance anxiety, no amount of specialized instruction will help.

Second. Ask the principal what strategies are employed BEFORE a student is referred to a specialist for testing for a disability in math. Ask if the school has a student assistance team that has reviewed her case. Ask what other teachers do when kids seem to be developing math anxiety. It is a real problem which means it has real solutions.

Third. Ask for a parents rights booklet re: Special Ed. It may be called a Procedural Rights Handbook. Review it. Sign nothing until the school has shown you why there is a difference between her progress in math last year as opposed to this year. IF you do sign, insist that you talk with the Psychologist who will test your daughter to explain your concerns BEFORE she/he lays an eye on your kid. Ask them to explain how they go about testing kids, ask for any information you want BEFORE they test your daughter. It saves hassles later and will help your daughter feel at ease.

Fourth. Kids who do not perform well on tests do not always require specialized instruction. They do require a different way in which to be tested or assessed. That should not be a problem for a good school. Sure the teacher wants all of her teachers to succeed, that's fair and that's fine. But...But, special education is for kids who have already shown that average instruction is not working. That does not seem to be the case.

Go with God. :) And please...some of us in education are very good at what we do. So don't assume the negative unless or until you have to. Then be clear, be firm and stand up for your child. Good professionals will respect you and to hell with the rest of them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I'm wondering if she should ask for a 504

That would address the testing issue by providing accommodations.

[MichiganVote]

35. Have to provide medical documentation that substantially interferes with her achievement.

Make the school and the teacher (sorry proud I'm sure you're a good teacher) work a little harder by providing a plan of strategies and clearly a different testing environment. If its a state test and they want to provide accommodations they usually need a 504 Plan or an IEP but if its district testing they can do that with a student service plan.

[FBaggins]

67. Moreover...

such option usually happen AFTER the child is determined to be special needs.

This sounds WAY too early for such a step. She's doing well in her other subjects and has given mom reason to think that she has the math skills but has trouble demonstrating them to the teacher/test (and has a sibling who overcame a similar stumbling point at the same age). This sounds like a mom who is properly involved in her daughter's education. All the respect in the world to the good teachers out there, but mom is probably in a better position to know whether her daughter has a special need.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. You can't have a 504 AND and IEP

Once again, way out of your league here.

[FBaggins]

77. Did somebody say that you could?

Once again with the straw men, eh? Can't find evidence that I'm wrong on what I've said so you've got to make up things for me to say? or is it perhaps a reading comprehension problem?

BOTH are types of written plans that are for kids who have already been determined to be disabled.

[Kerrytravelers]

90. "mom is probably in a better position to know whether her daughter has a special need."

Maybe. Maybe not. It is always good to consider what the education professionals are saying. It is also good to do independent research and ask other education professionals outside of the situation.

This isn't directed at CoffeeCat, but there are some parents who just don't always know what is academically best for their student. That doesn't imply they don't love their child and want only the best, but teachers study education to do this very thing. And specialists in testing and assessment study their fields for this very thing. It would be like me, the teacher, going into my doctor's office with a bump and then insisting that he is wrong and I know best because it is my body. I certainly have insight and information because the body is mine, but my doctor went to medical school for this very thing. Perhaps I should listen... and perhaps I should get a second opinion.

CoffeeCat is doing the right thing. She listened to the teacher. She is working with her daughter. Because the child is in additional tutoring, clearly CoffeeCat is willing to work with the school and is taking their advice. But she is also educating herself and getting opinions from professional educators. She's listening, taking advice, and getting a second opinion.

[FBaggins]

91. I agree

Of course it's "maybe, maybe not" who actually does know best. But I maintain that mom IS "in the best position to know" (this being her daughter that we're talking about).

We both know that there are plenty of parents who are "in position" to know... yet don't. But even a moderately responsible parent simply has a big “advantage” over the teacher because she has so much more context… more experience with the student… more knowledge of everything else going on in her life (and doesn’t have dozens of other kids added to the mix and a school administrator breathing down her neck).

In addition to this, I understand the knee-jerk defense of the “education professional” We both know many hard working educators who really know there stuff (most of them in fact)… who have our children’s education as a true “calling”– but we also both know that the term “education professional” is not fairly applied to absolutely everyone within the profession. There are some true duds out there and far more who are trying hard but are just not up to the task (by which I mean, they do fine with “normal” kids but are out of their depth with any challenges). Some are just new to the profession and make those growing-pain mistakes.

We’ve both said that something doesn’t make sense in that teacher’s response. We’ve also both seen that CC is well involved in her child’s education. This is one of the good parents. I did caution her to be open to the possibility that her child has a minor disability, but there simply isn’t anything like enough evidence now to even begin that conversation (let alone hold it over her head). Then the more recent update where the teacher introduced a new concept (in a valid way, but not necessarily a way every child has experience with) and cast judgement upon the poor girl because she didn’t “get it” right away. Something is “wrong” and I don’t think it’s mom or daughter.

I will also maintain the position that got me in so much trouble here. Anyone who has been in this profession long enough can’t question the fact that there is more that goes on than simply the best interests of the child. Schools have internal politics and priorities that we wish weren’t there… but almost always are. Maybe the school is paid a lump sum for each “disabled” child but pays far more for severely disabled than something minor. Maybe they already have an instructor in house who will do a little tutoring and it adds nothing at all to their expenses, so they can use the money on some truly disabled kids who are underfunded. I’ve seen heavily-minority schools that are badly underfunded and designate under-performing kids as “disabled” to bring in the funding they desperately need. I understand the motivation is good, but if I’m the dad I don’t want my kid labeled falsely because of that motivation. Maybe the teacher isn’t particularly confident herself at math (we aren’t all good at everything) and doesn’t know HOW to get CC’s daughter over the hump and this is a way for HER to get some help.

Everyday Math has strengths and weaknesses, but regardless of your opinion of it… it’s different from how mom (and likely teacher) learned 3rd grade math. Maybe this is a new curriculum for the school and the teacher has years of experience recognizing the common stumbling blocks kids have with the old curriculum but just hasn’t seen them for EM.

The rest of us wish it weren’t so, but mom is the only one who we know has only the best interests of her daughter at heart. She’s done the right thing by asking for help here and she’s gotten some good advice (even from those I debated semi-heatedly). I think she should trust her instincts.

[Kerrytravelers]

95. I have no opinion of Everyday Math. I've not used it before.

You can say the same thing about any profession. Medical professional. Dental professional. Etc. The point is, educators are often not regarded as professionals. And there was nothing knee-jerk in my reactions or posts. I think you're reading more into my post than I actually wrote.

What got you "in trouble" with the educators in this thread is that they are teachers who work in special education or with special education. Funding is not straight forward, and we see that every day. Schools do not "make money" based on student identification as special ed. The child's educational funding is placed in priority. Funding is a beast in education, and those on the front lines see that every day. And, to be honest but not intended to be unkind, I've read your posts in this thread and I'm not going to enter into a repeat of the previous conversation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. In my state, all testing is covered

So it doesn't matter if it is district testing or the state tests. An IEP or a 504 mandates accommodations for ALL testing. I also think a letter from a parent is enough to get a 504. I don't think medical documentation is mandated.

[Kerrytravelers]

87. I'm reading through this and was just thinking the same thing.

What may need to happen is a conversation about alternative testing situations. Untimed tests, taking the test in a different setting (library, counselor's office, etc.,) or perhaps breaking the test into more than one part so one section could be done in the morning and another in the afternoon. There are all kinds of alternatives that could be worked out.

I taught third grade for years. I would just accommodate without the 504 if that is what worked best for a particular student. Often times, the accommodation would be scaled back as the student adapted to the testing setting. Other times, we went all year long. I would advise the parents of students who really required a more permanent accommodation to look into a 504.

I'm agreeing with the other educators in this thread. One step at a time. It seems way premature to be looking into special education. In fact, and maybe it is just a state difference, but we don't "recommend" any student for special education based on such a flimsy situation. Special Ed is a huge process, requiring quite a bit of intervention first, except in very rare and extreme situations (such as severe emotional disturbances {SED}) I can't quite figure what this teacher's aim is, unless it is to put a scare in the parents and student, which is not only completely unnecessary, but actually quite insulting to children who require Special Ed services.

Let's say the teacher does recommend special ed, and for some crazy reason, no intervention is required (which isn't going to happen, but anyway, for the sake of argument,) no assessment coordinator or administrator is going to look at this situation, if it is just as presented {which I assume it is,} and think this child requires special ed. They will push it back to the 504 level. I can't see this reasonably going into special education services.

CoffeeCat, there are some very experienced educators, particularly in the area of special ed, in this thread. Take a look at their pieces of advice.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[kaylynwright]

63. switch classes

Maybe she could switch classes?

I had difficulty with some math assessments at that age. We did something daily (I think) called "Mad-Minutes." It started with addition, and you would add as fast as you could 1+1, 1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 1+5...and so on until you reached 20 or so per minute. The next level would be 2+1, 2+2, 2+3. That went all the way up to tens. Addition was fairly easy to pass and subtraction was ok also. However, I was the ONLY kid who couldn't get past the multiplication. It was extremely frustrating, stressful, and I dreaded math everyday. This emphasis on testing like this is ridiculous! It in no way demonstrated what type of students I was and turned out to be. I think in my case, it was a developmental problem-I just wasn't ready to think that fast! My sister couldn't pass it either 2 years before me, and my brother never could. We all turned out fine, so the amount of pressure kids get placed under to complete things quickly and in time is frustrating! Or the fact that some children really do just get nervous.

Can you talk to the teacher about it again, and see if she has any other suggestions besides putting your daughter in special ed (who doesn't need special ed)? Or, worst comes to worst, try to switch her into a different class.

[LWolf]

70. In 3rd grade,

I'm assuming it's the same teacher for math and reading, but the teacher is not as "high-strung" when she teaches reading?

The "manic urgency to FIX THIS NOW" is most likely coming from admins. The need to meet benchmarks under AYP has administrators pressuring us to do MORE, to do intensive remediation with those not meeting, to FIX THIS NOW before the final round of testing THIS SCHOOL YEAR.

All of that is driven by NCLB, not by the particular teacher.

She can recommend her for special education, but it takes your approval to test, or to put her in a program. If you feel that strongly, simply calmly and kindly let her know that you aren't going to give approval for testing or placement. Then give her an alternative way to address the issue. If she is under the gun to "fix this now," she can't just wait. "Extra tutoring" might be the key.

Of course, most schools don't have any "extra tutors" around to do that tutoring, except for the sped teachers, which might be why she wants to recommend her. Does your district keep a list of teachers who will do extra tutoring outside of school hours for pay?

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Actually the district can still test without parent approval

It doesn't happen often, but there is a clause in the federal regs that allows districts to proceed with an evaluation without the parent's consent. Not all districts will do so for mild or moderate disabilities, but in the case of an obviously severely impaired child, they will go ahead and do the evaluation.

[CoffeeCat]

83. My child isn't even disabled...

...or at least it has not been determined that she is disabled.

She's struggling with math, but she seems to mainly struggle with it at school.

Yesterday, the teacher mentioned that my daughter "got all of the problems wrong"
on a daily exercise. They haven't learned how to do division yet, or their division
facts. However, the exercise was to take 18 chips and divide them up--onto four
containers. My daughter's assignment was to write out how many chips would be on each
plate and to document if any were left over.

I did this with my child at home (with golf balls and plates!) and she did it just fine!
The classroom exercise may have augmented her understanding of the concepts.

We have a brand-new math program this year called, "Everyday math". First, they learn these
"everyday" exercises that relate to the concept (division) before (or in tandem with) learning
about the facts. I think it can be confusing and hard.

I am still learning about my child and this situation is a challenge. I just want to do the right
thing.

She's struggling with math, does that merit special education? I struggled with math...many kids
do. I was under the impression that not all kids do well in math...are they supposed to be special
ed students then? I just don't know enough about this and I'm trying to learn and do what's best
for my child.

[FBaggins]

84. Oh goodness mom! You may have just hit on the answer.

"Everyday Math" could very well be the problem (particularly if your daughter has no other subjects that cause problems).

I wouldn't say that it's the "concept" exercises followed by facts... that's actually a pretty good way to learn (though to assess your daughter's abilities based on that concept exercise is revolting!) - but there are plenty of problems with that program.

I'm not going to dig too deep for fear of attracting another attack by those with a vested interest in defending the system... but I recommend that you google a bit and see all the concerns with that particular program.

[Kerrytravelers]

88. Here is a suggestion:

Go online to Everyday Math https://www.everydaymathonline.com/ and look at what your child will be learning in advance of the classroom lesson.

It might be costly, I don't know your financial situation, but there are materials you may be able to order. https://www.wrightgroup.com/everydaymath/buynow.html?PHPSESSID=671b0ae6127e595ec6dc164077978d03&gid=207 Sometimes, vendors require either a credential faxed to them or certain classroom materials ordered on a district PO. If that is the case, you may want to speak with your school administrator about assisting your purchasing, perhaps ordering the materials you can then pay for, etc.

In my position, I have gotten to know K-12 curriculum for various ability levels quite well. I select the appropriate curriculum for my students on an individual basis since they are in Independent Study and not a traditional classroom based learning environment. You may want to take a look at the following vendors if you would like to purchase supplemental materials to help your daughter at home:

Buckle Down is broken up by state. They have standards based activities. The books are huge, but it gives you a good idea of your state's standards. http://www.buckledown.com/

eTap is an online site. If you need a password, PM me. I'll help you out! http://www.etap.org/

You might want to take a look at Touch Math. I have less experience with them, but I have colleagues who recommend this frequently. http://www.touchmath.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=WYT.welcome&page=UpperGrades

If you PM me your state, I can do a more in depth search through my vendors and see if I can find some that would be correlated with your state standards and meet you daughter's needs more specifically.

Please, feel free to PM me anytime. I'll respond as soon as I see the PM in my box.

:hug:
kt

[donco6]

98. Struggling with math does not mean special ed., IMO

We have Everyday Math here. Personally, I love it, and from a science teacher perspective, I like how it makes kids think of lots of different ways to approach and solve a problem. There isn't just one way to set up long division - the kids use the traditional way, multiple-minus, matrices, lots of different approaches. But for a parent (or someone my age - 50), it can be confusing.

EM uses a cycling technique where the concept is introduced, reintroduced, expanded, applied, then mastered. It's not a foundational approach. Sometimes kids need more foundation though. I just think your child needs a little more support, but not "special ed." I could be wrong and I haven't even seen her, but from everything you've said, that's where I would go first - with some type of Tier 1 intervention to see how she responds. Working with math facts, the games and the homework is also great. If your school has a math night, that's great, too.

Just my .02 worth.

[Kerrytravelers]

99. Is there anything that CoffeeCat can get online or order from EM?

Just curious. :hi: Sometimes just seeing the following day's lesson the night before might put CC's daughter at ease.

[donco6]

100. I can check - she's 3rd grade? n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

101. Yes. Third grade.

In my Post #88, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=16045&mesg_id=16181 , I linked to EM. I'm just not familiar with it to even being giving direct purchasing recommendations. Sometimes there are additional supplemental materials that can be ordered. Well, you know, you're in education.

How long has your district used EM? Are you piloting it or is it adopted. And do you mind if I ask what state you're in? I'm in California. I am in a position to make curriculum recommendations and would love to get the insight on someone who has used EM. This is my first encounter with it.

[donco6]

102. I'm in Colorado.

This is our third year.

We've seen our test scores increase pretty substantially with EM (they were truly in the gutter before, so even just using a consistent curriculum could be a big part of it). We've adopted districtwide, which was OK even with all of our different models (Montessori, EL, CES, etc.) because the teachers were begging for something - anything - that provided materials and curriculum. We had them review several different programs and they decided on this one, so we bought it. I really, REALLY like the way it integrates basic math with algebra and geometry, rather than keeping it artificially separate. It's really clever how it shows them that math is math, but can be represented in many different ways - with numbers or lines or shapes or grids or patterns . . . and all are valid.

One problem is that you have to make the math games. That can be a pain. What we did is have a few nights where they bought pizza and we just all got together and did an assembly line to make a bunch of games, then divided them up among us. It was OK, but there are so many more to make to really get the concepts across.

Like I said, EM is NOT skill-based, so there are no worksheets with lots of the same problem on it. But I think some of our kids could probably use this basic drill stuff once in a while. It goes against the basic idea of EM, which is more concept and problem solving, rather than "instant" recognition - but there are these problems on the state tests sometimes and it might help them whip through those problems . . . I dunno!

On the EM website, it links to the Units and lessons. http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/parents/homework_help/3rd_grade/
It does show all the units for each grade, so you could look ahead if you want.

[FBaggins]

104. I think donco6 has accurately described many of the main advantages

and disadvantages of the program.

A couple more I've seen:

One of the things I like the most is that the student picks up a number of different ways to address a problem and becomes more comfortable picking one that works in a given situation. That's a "real world" benefit. My wife had me watch that youtube video assaulting EM and for the first half (showing some of the non standard algorithms) and I said "that's not how I learned it but it's how I do them in my head - so that's cool"). The downside is that we all know that mom/dad are important in education and THEY didn't learn it that way. They're likely to look at one of the matrix multiplication grids and say "huh?". If we want mom and dad to help with homework... that's a problem.

I really don't like the amount of time spent using a calculator. You just shouldn't need a calculator for 4th grade math.

I love the "spiral" concept but I disagree that EM ever gets to the "mastery" level. In fact, the teacher's manual specifically says that practicing to mastery is a waste of valuable classroom time.

My largest concern is the reports back from the higher-level math teachers saying that they're getting students in who just can't multiply and divide. They just don't have mastery of the prerequisite skills. That's a real problem.

An easy summary:

At the "grammar" level you memorize basic facts
at the "dialectic" level you learn to connect/relate these facts to understand how they work.
at the "rhetoric" level is analysis and synthesis... IOW "what does it mean".

These levels are developmental as much as they are anything else. "Grammar" school was designed through 6th grade largely because that's where they are developmentally. EM skimps on the "grammar" (memorization/mastery/facts/whatever) and attempt to incorporate higher levels of thinking. That's a great goal... but perhaps not as well designed as it could be. Not every student is developmentally ready for that. (oh... and BTW since it's the topic of the thread... failure to be beyond "grammar" developmentally is perfectly ok for a 3rd grader... it isn't a disability. It's possible that this is simply the wrong curriculum for this particular child).

[MichiganVote]

85. That reg. has been changed proud. Now its no longer possible even tho' it was used very, very rarely

[LWolf]

94. Good to know.

I've never seen it used, but I can see why it might be in an extreme case.

[CoffeeCat]

82. Thanks for all of your suggestions/insight...

I knew that there had to be something driving this "urgency" that I sense. I do like this teacher and I think
she is a kind person who only has my child's best interest. However, I was really curious about her cadence with
all of this. It's almost manic. Administration wanting to "fix this now" may be what is driving all of that.

With that said, math is not my daughter's strong suit. My oldest daughter was the same way in third grade. She
struggled and by the second half of the year everything gelled for her. I assumed this child was on the same
trajectory--but this teacher wants this solved NOW.

My daughter is getting extra help in math. She gets 20 minutes a day with other kids who are also having difficulties. I
also work with her on her homework and her math facts nightly.

i was shocked when the teacher pretty much said special ed was the next step. I don't even know what that means...would
she be in a separate classroom? Or is this just as simple as some extra tutoring time? What are the ramification for
my child if she is officially a special ed kid? I'm doing research now. I just have so many questions and lots of
learning to do.

Again, I appreciate your insight.

[Kerrytravelers]

89. In my experience, I'm not sure why this teacher presented special ed as the next step.

Proud can probably speak with more authority in regards to the special ed, as that is her specialty. However, from my ten year + experience, special ed is never held over as a threat or an insta-fix. Special education services are extraordinarily expensive and the funding for special education needs to held in priority above other allotments, which means that it won't be used as a quick fix just to move your daughter out of the way.

There are a ton of steps, interventions, etc. that has to happen first. It may simply be placed under the guidance of a Resource teacher for a set number of minutes per week. She may be required to complete a minimum number of minutes per week/month in additional tutoring, which is funded by the district or state. (This varies depending upon services, districts, etc.) I, personally, have never seen nor heard of a child in Special Day classes based on low performance in one educational area. I just don't see that logically happening.

All this being said, I encourage you to continue to research. Ask questions from people in the educational field. And, if necessary, and you are feeling pushed, consult an educational advocate. I recommend this to all my special education families, as their rights and the educational rights of the child aren't always utmost in the mind of some in charge. You just never know.

Also, I have one additional vendor to recommend. Take a look at their offerings. http://www.proedinc.com/Customer/default.aspx

[CoffeeCat]

92. Can I ask a question about educational advocates?

You mentioned that I should consult an educational advocate. I think this sound wonderful. I want
to consult the professionals. I'm in listening mode and I want expert opinions. I'm the first to
admit that I'm not an educational expert.

It is my understanding that my child would be tutored, by a special-ed instructor for 30 minutes a
day. The instructor would specifically focus on math. It is also my understanding that my child
would not learn math with her regular class, that she would learn and study math with this special
ed instructor. This is why I am confused. Why not just have my daughter tutored? Why special education?

I'm sure there are logical answers to these questions, I just don't have those answers yet.

So, how do I go about finding an educational expert? Is this through the school district?

Thank you so much for reading my post and for any insight.

:)

[Kerrytravelers]

96. It sounds like they are suggesting Resource (that is what we call it in California.)

Let me back up and walk you through Special Ed in California.

Special Education encompasses all ends of the spectrum considered "not average."
-Gifted students are considered Special Ed.
-Resource. Students are pulled from their regular classroom for specific core subjects, i.e. reading and math. They work in small group (4 or fewer students) or one-on-one. Resource is a temporary solution, in that once a student pulls up to a predetermined performance level, they are moved out of Resource.
-Special Day Class is special education because the students are pulled from a large class setting (average 20 students) and placed in specialized classrooms based on their diagnosis (learning disabilities, emotional disturbances, etc.) Special Day ranges from moderate to severe.


Honestly, Resource may be an ok idea. In a sense, it is like tutoring. She will work with a teacher who has an additional credential in Resource services (it may be called different names in different states.) This teacher does nothing but work with students who have very specific needs all day long. If Resource is offered, I'd take them up on it.


When I suggested an Educational Advocate, I was suggesting taking an attorney who specializes in Educational Law with you to the assessment and IEP (Individualized Education Program) meeting, if this is what the school is trying to push. Honestly, it doesn't seem as if they are, so you really won't need to worry about that expense. The reason why I suggest this to all my Special Education families is that it is always important to make sure that the child's needs are being met and not just half-assed because the state doesn't want to pay and wants to sweep issues under the rug. The district I use to work in was terrible in regards to respecting Education Code. I left the district because the administration was not dealing with the student's needs and, quite frankly, when the lawsuits started flying, I didn't want to be standing with the administration. (That is a whole other issue that has nothing to do with your daughter.)


I would ask the teacher and principal to sit down with you and walk you through their proposal. You have every right to ask for a day or two to consider their proposal. Do not sign anything. In fact, perhaps you can PM Proud, MichiganVote and I would be happy to receive a PM regarding what the school is offering. I bet you they are proposing Resource for Math and, if yes, I'd be inclined to take them up on their offer.

Feel free to PM me anytime! I answer education questions all the time. And if I don't know, I'll tell you such and help point you in the direction of someone who does!

:hi:
kt

[LWolf]

93. Every state and district

manages sped differently, although there are some standardized legal requirements.

Usually, the testing determines whether or not there is a significant difference between ability and performance, which qualifies a student for an IEP. The IEP sets goals and determines what kind of service a student receives.

Only the most severely disabled students would be in a special classroom. Most will be pulled out of the regular classroom for a period during the day for extra help, or will have someone come into the classroom to help there.

None of that happens, though, without your approval.

I wish the best outcome for your daughter, and for you.