A Note To Politicians Who Support Merit Pay, Voucher Schools, Charter Schools

[Dinger]

and the like, . . . .


Public school teachers VOTE!:patriot:

[Chulanowa]

1. A note to all voting teachers...

Your vote only counts if there's a difference in the options presented to you. If both parties are supporting the neoliberal raping of our education system, who do you vote for?

[Dinger]

2. You Said It All (nt)

[endersdragon34]

3. Someone answer my question!

What the heck is wrong with charter schools (or vouchers for nonreligious programs for that matter)> When your forced to learn stuff 3 years (at least) below your level for years, while being bullied to the point of torture (for being an aspie) such an option sounds GREAT. A voucher to get into a Montessori School or a charter school designed for aspies would be a great option for such a kid. But most options cost a lot of money, so I was stuck not learning anything in regular public schools. Does this sound like a good option to you?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. Vouchers are an inefficient use of state education spending.

You can turn a bad public school into a good one for less money than it would cost to send all the pupils to good private schools.

Also, a vouchers system would mean that the public schools would get worse (less money per pupil, and a disproportionate number of good pupils being creamed off), making things worse for the children who need help most - those whose parents don't take advantage of opportunities offered them.

[endersdragon34]

5. Just curious

Isn't that money that is being given to the private school "his/hers". I mean its the money set aside for their education, why not give them a choice of where they want to have it spent? Yes you will be losing that money in the public school, but you will also be losing students to spend it on. Public school is not made for all. Montessori education would have been GREAT for me. A school where I can actually learn what I want to learn, how I want to learn in, and when I want to learn it... that would be heavenly. I would love it if they created a local charter school with that sortof educational ideals, but until then it would be nice to have a private school option, even if your dirt poor. Do you really believe that education can be "one size fits all" like we try to do it now?

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. No one is stopping you from going to a Montessori school

You are free to make that choice.

I am also wondering how old you are since Montessori schools are for elementary aged students. We have several in my district and they are PK thru grade 6.

[endersdragon34]

10. Actually poverty can keep you from going to a school like that

The fact that I was poor kept me from going to a Montessori school, Montessori education costs money. Currently the only option to give poorer students an education like that is... charter schools. When you are living day to day that much money is hard to come back. And I meant that in the past tense. As way back when (well 10 years ago anyway)

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Montessori schools have scholarships

http://www.montessori.org/enews/imcenews_04_06/imcenews_04_06_finan_aid.html

[endersdragon34]

12. True, but just because you apply...

Doesn't mean you will be accepted. I don't know, my mom tried several times, never worked. They probably just weren't willing to offer a full ride and anything short of that wouldn't be enough (I remember how much financal trouble my family went through when I needed to play $75 to play football one year). Beyond that just because there are other options out there that cost money doesn't mean there shouldn't be some free options. Especcially when other options that aren't Montessori teaching (for special needs kids for example) cost serious money (like $20,000+ a year).

[endersdragon34]

14. P.S. This is what I dream of

I dream of a educational system where rather then having 10 big schools we have 100 small schools (exact numbers subject to change :-p). Where each school is designed to teach a different way, and a kid and his parents can choose which one they wish to attend. There will be schools for special needs kids, schools for math/sciences, art schools, Montessori schools, year-round schools, and every other type of school you can imagine. Yes I know the costs of this will be huge, but the benefits will be even greater. So far the only schools (and therefore the only teachers) that seem to be pushing for this type of system is the charter schools (some of those are seen in magnet schools, but even magnet schools are in large part "neighborhood schools").

Every other school seems to be pushing for a one size fits all model of education, wherein its assumed that my kid learns exactly the same way as the neighbor kid, and we both learn exactly the same way as everyone else in the neighborhood (which gets bigger and bigger and bigger the farther on you go). The only way one escapes this assumption that they learn the exact same way as those next to them is tracking, which A) doesn't come along for most until at least 8th grade, for many closer to high school and B) God help you if your on the lower track (no one else will). Is this the type of educational system you all wish for us to have? And what do you suggest a parent of an impoverished but highly gifted Asperger's kid do?

[tonysam]

18. Because Parents Don't "Choose " Private Schools; the Schools

choose which students to admit, that's why.

[endersdragon34]

21. That seems to be splitting hairs to me

Most private schools will take just about anyone who can pay (with some restrictions in other ways), now if a kid is a frequent disturbance they might kick them out but short of that, not really.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. That's not true at all

Private schools are usually very selective about who they admit.

[endersdragon34]

54. Gifted private schools yes

other sorts of private schools not really, for example Montessori schools will take just about anyone. But then again I am more for chater schools then private schools anyway.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. Montessori schools can be pretty selective too

They generally don't take kids with moderate or severe disabilities.

[endersdragon34]

61. Hmmm

From everything I have heard they are all about students with learning disabilities... but then again considering they don't get much public funding... I can't really blame them for not taking kids with moderate/severe disabilites. Public schools receive great amounts of funding for such students, montessori schools would have to do it getting nothing. When the teachers themselves generally get paid between 30-40,000..., and the school has little other funds to work with, I can't really blame them for not taking such students, can you?

Beyond that montessori schools would be way too unstructured for students with severe disabilties.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. No public schools don't get lots of money for kids with disabilities

And 30 to 40 K a year isn't a very good salary for a college grad.

[endersdragon34]

65. First off my point exactly

Montessori schools don't have the resources public schools. And I have heard that $18,000 is spent to educate the average autistic child (which I would assume means low-functioning autistic student). Montessori have nowhere near those kinds of resources.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Public schools have more administrative expenses

You can't really make this comparison.

[endersdragon34]

69. And what is the average per pupul expendature for a NT student?

That takes into account administrative expenses to so you compare the two you should be able to get to the truth right... as far as I know its almost $10,000 less nationally, and even in the most expensive states its almost $5,000 less... so once again Montessori doesn't have those types of resources.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. No you can't compare public and private schools

using per pupil expenditure figures. For one thing, public schools pay for transportation, which is the second biggest budget item for a public school district after salaries. Private schools don't have that expense.

[endersdragon34]

72. I'm not

I am comparing public schools and public schools per pupil expenditures. Special needs kids (especially those with moderate to severe disabilities that you mentioned) cost a lot more for a school to teach period. Go look at how much a private school education for a kid with severe disabilities costs sometime... its not cheap. But the simple point is that it make sense that Montessori schools wouldn't take every last student. Thats all.

[LuckyLib]

22. Montessori education is more than

"A school where I can actually learn what I want to learn, how I want to learn in, and when I want to learn it..."

Learning and teaching are organized and structured differently, (and I happen to believe logically and sensibly in terms of human desires and motivation) but it is often mistakenly described as "do what you want" -- not true. Curriculum is closely developed, carefully structured, and teachers know their learners very well. Most importantly, learners come to know themselves.

[endersdragon34]

24. Ummm I might be reading this wrong

But, "The Montessori environment contains specially designed, manipulative "materials for development" that invite children to engage in learning activities of their own individual choice. Under the guidance of a trained teacher, children in a Montessori classroom learn by making discoveries with the materials, cultivating concentration, motivation, self-discipline, and a love of learning." (http://www.montessori-namta.org/NAMTA/geninfo/whatismont.html) sounds a lot like what I was suggesting, all curriculum is designed to be student centered and it generally allows students to learn at their own pace and in their own ways (using the activities) especcially at lower grades. I might be wrong but it sounds like I would at least be far more able to "learn what I want to learn, how I want to learn it, and when I want to learn it".

Also on another part of that website it says:

"5. Children in Montessori classrooms are relatively unsupervised and can "do whatever they want."

Montessori is based on the principle of free choice of purposeful activity. If the child is being destructive or is using materials in an aimless way, the teacher will intervene and gently re-direct the child either to more appropriate materials or to a more appropriate use of the material."

Once again it seems like what I was saying. Though admittedly I haven't been in that many rooms. In fact much of what that page says (http://www.montessori-namta.org/NAMTA/geninfo/miscon.html) seems to go along with my orginal statement.

[LWolf]

6. Sure:

The main issue is one of equity. "Charter" schools are private schools run with public money. They do have to be approved by a local district. They don't have to adhere to all the same regulations and structure that the rest do.

There are plenty of ways to improve the system, and sub-systems within that system, without privatization.

Charter schools are the pre-step before vouchers. Both are tools of privatization. The ultimate agenda with privatization is to destroy the public education system, not improve it.

Here's a post I wrote 14 months ago on this subject. I stand by what I said then:

As long as those who have $$ can pay for "more," then the playing field is not equal. As long as those who don't feel served by public ed have other choices, then transforming the ps system into a flexible entity that allows "choice" within the school walls, and provides things like small class size, more adults per students on campus, more resources, etc., that has the resources to serve the needs of all, instead of the needs of the many, the average, or the majority, don't have to happen. Public ed can remain a factory system designed to produce low-cost results rather than community systems designed to produce high-quality results.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=6548#6574

[endersdragon34]

7. So what should be done?

Can we agree that one size fits all education is bad? I mean no successful educational system seems to do that. Charter schools are currently our only effort to move out of that society. Charter schools are currently the only way we could have a Montessori type school (for example) in our current system is through a charter school. I don't think its neccessarily the charter school option you are against, just the name. So let me post an example of my ideal charter school, and lets see if you have a problem with it.

http://www.spectrumcharter.org/

So? And yes I know not all charter schools are like that, but only charter and private schools are like that, so its the only option we seem to have right now if your an aspie like me. I could also show you some posts from some of my groups showing you how much trouble aspies and other learning disabled kids have in normal schools. Most moms seem to either hope for private/charter school options, or else pull their kids out of school entirely and start homeschooling them (another option that requires a lot of money).

[LWolf]

15. Of course one-size-fits-all is bad.

I've never, in my 26 years in public education, met a teacher who thought otherwise.

One-size-fits-all is part of the "standards and accountability" movement, which is, in the long run, destroying public education.

Don't take that to mean that I, and other educators, don't want high standards, and object to being accountable for the things we can control.

But that's not really the agenda of the group running things right now.

I have always been a vocal supporter of more local control, and more choices, within the public education system. It is certainly possible. I worked for 21 years at two different public schools that modeled those concepts. That all went away in the 90s with the advent of the standards and accountability movement.

One outcome of that movement has been to forcibly standardize schools. Not many educators did this willingly. Another outcome is to further the blame game, the mis-direction propaganda setting educators up as incompetent, which furthers the march towards privatization.

Your example? My objection is that ALL public schools aren't allowed to specialize, or to customize their learning programs. That charter schools are allowed to do so, and are exempt from many of the regulations that public schools are not, and that they do so with public money.

One of the outcomes of a less-regulated charter school system is that schools can be great or horrific; until a local district decides to revoke a charter, there are few quality controls. Should a district attempt to adopt something that is working, and apply it to all, it immediately becomes watered down and ineffective. Charter schools as pilots simply feed into the one-size-fits all mentality, with the assumption that if a "pilot" program is successful, then it will be adopted district wide.

So what should be done?

Here are just some of my proposals; I've shared them many, many times:

1. Abolish NCLB, which helps the further degradation of public education.
2. Turn the bureacracy upside down- put the power in the hands of the stakeholders: families and teachers at the local site level. Put the admins in charge of facilitating the decisions made by those stake-holders. Leave reasonable regulatory controls in place, but get rid of much of the miles-thick, labyrinthian ed code.
3. Reduce class sizes in all grade levels across the board to the research-based optimum 15.
4. Fully, and differently, fund the general fund. No more ADA, which is just an excuse to NOT fully fund. Fund every school equally. And, along with that, get rid of categorical funding, with too many strings attached, for special needs students. Fund support services for any student who demonstrates any need, whether or not they meet a pre-determined self-limiting statistical qualification.
5. Invest in clean, safe, healthy, modern, school environments.
6. Invest in abundant resources of every type for every school.
7. Provide a complete support staff for tutoring, supervising, counseling, health care, and all other duties outside of instructional duties that teachers now do themselves or do without.
8. A longer school year; 200 instructional days.
9. Non-student days for all meetings, staff development, etc. that eat into the time that teachers have to plan high-quality experiences, evaluate results, and customize to suit.
10. Universal FREE public pre-school - college and/or trade school. Including full-day kindergarten.
11. Provide health-conscious meals, breakfast, lunch, and snack to all students, every day. No junk foods or drink.
12. Provide supervised small group "study halls" for all every day, instead of homework.
13. PE every day.
14. Extensive music and art for all.
15. Allow individual schools to choose a focus, philosophy, methodology, etc., and allow families within that district to choose their school.
16. Expand transportation services to allow # 15.
17. A comprehensive, radically aggressive program to address universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care, poverty, adult illiteracy, and adult education levels in every community, since those factors influence learning outcomes more powerfully than the best school program.


The problem with the changes, improvements, etc. that charter schools offer is that they don't offer them to all. As long as you allow yourself to be convinced that real, radical, systemic, positive change can't be effected within the system, you perpetuate the destruction of public education.

[endersdragon34]

16. Double post

Double post please delete

[endersdragon34]

17. So....

I think you like the idea of MOST charter schools, and what many people are trying to do with charter schools, you just hate the name. We get rid of charter schools right now we will be sending some kids back to harmful environment, some back to where they won't learn, some back to where they will be bored, etc. All we have right now other then charter schools are neighborhood schools. But back to my orginal point, what did you think of that charter school I showed you? You want to get rid of it? :hopes not:

And I am not sure about the whole idea of making some charter schools too much more regulated. For example how do you measure how good a charter school for learning disabled kids is doing? Should it be measured in students happyness (kid goes from wanting to kill himself to loving school every day)? Should it be measured by test scores, and if so to what standard (do we expect the learning disabled kids to be doing just as well as their nondisabled peers or would it all be about individual improvement which would be damn near impossible to measure)? Should it be measure by how many parents want their kids to go there (an interesting measure but really hard to quanify) or what?

Beyond that in many school districts most public schools are allowed to specialize in another "school choice" option, in other words magnet schools. For example though they were neighborhood schools I went to middle school at the technology magnet and that attracted many students to the school (and probably some students went to other magnets) likewise my elmentry school was one of year-round school which attracted many students (and no doubt scared a good deal away). I personally also enjoy the idea of magnet schools, but they are harder to take to the extreme, and a disability magnet (for example) isn't quite as good as a charter school IMHO as part of the joy for a disabled kid to be surrounded by other disabled kids is not to be around the bullying lil fuc... kids that make their lives a living hell.

But I never think a charter school should be used as a pilot (neither should a lab school for that matter), so I think we are in agreement there. But that does beg the question why not adapt things that are happening at the charter schools for other populations. For example (and I appologise for always going with disabilities but its what I know) say a charter school for aspies comes up with new methods of teaching asperger's students social skills... shouldn't it be adapted to every school who works with aspies (which would probably still be every school). Same thing with arts and the like. While it shouldn't be used the same way neccessarily, why not use it?


As for your suggestions, I like some don't know about others. For example, I am not wild about the idea of lengthening the school year 20 days (about a month), and couldn't imagine the cost in trying. We would have to tear down a lot of older schools (which are mostly in great working order), probably make many schools a lot smaller (harder to provide AC when the school is quite spread out) and many other things that I don't think will work that well. My high school (which sucked for its own reasons) was a mostly great school but going to school the first week was horrible, providing 2 weeks more before the fall and 2 weeks more in the spring would be impossible. Beyond that I think any extra learning that could be done in those 20 days would be better served by providing other options for kids to learn throughout the summer (in any number of ways) for practically as cheap.

And yes, national curriculum standards are horrible... but Obama seems to be very much for it sadly

[LWolf]

20. No, you do not yet "get" it.

I don't like the idea of ANY charter schools.

I like the idea of ALL public schools being given some of the same freedoms and flexibility that charter schools now enjoy, with enough regulations to guarantee safety and some quality control.

I do not want public money spent on schools outside the system.

I want all schools within the system fully supported as semi-autonomous entities.

[endersdragon34]

23. Charter schools are public schools...

But beyond that you really want to go tell all of those aspie kids they have to go back to their neighborhood school, go back to not getting taught, go back to getting suspended for small things on a regular basis, go back to being depressed and potentially suicidal. When those are you two options which are you going to choose? I would hope the keeping the charter school open.

And you still haven't told me how are you going to regulate safety (I am sure every school is doing that now anyway, there is absolutely no sense in not doing it) or assuring quality control (yep they want to ruin these kids for life I am sure). Short of test scores how do you plan to do that?

Thats the whole point of school choice, to allow students to choose what kindof school they want to go to for the exact same cost (free). There will never be a "public school" (as you put it) that is just for disabled kids, or just for artistic kids, or whatever. Beyond that, what parent is going to choose a charter school that is hurting there kids. It won't last long if that was to happen. I think you just secretly are a fan of NCLB (jk mostly but you get my point).

So lets say this, how about we open up charter schools to more regulations, and/or make all public schools "charter schools" or magnet schools.

[LWolf]

25. No, Charter schools are NOT "public" schools.

They are private schools given permission to operate, with public funds, by local school districts.

They do not have to abide by the same rules, regulations, calendars, and contracts that public schools do.

It's a half step from public schools to vouchers.

Part of the organized effort to privatize education.

[endersdragon34]

26. Please quit ignoring 99/100ths of what I say

and feel free to go back to responding to all my other points... not that you will. But beyond that they are independant schools, but they are almost entirely dependant on public funds and if the public funds go away so does the school. So basically all public school means to you is rules, regulations, calendars, and contracts. Thats nice. To me it means free education supported by the governemtn, interesting difference in opinion. But beyond all that, the school can not continue to exist if at least some people don't like it, which provides a good amount of regulation. Thats the real differnce, it focuses on the people, not the government... I get why that could scare you.

[LWolf]

27. When you are no longer pushing

the false propaganda concerning charter schools, then the rest of your remarks can be addressed.

Respond with a post that acknowledges charter schools as the tool of privatization that they are. Then give your perspective on privatization.

If you support privatization, we don't have anything further to talk about. Privatizers are the enemy of equity, of equal opportunity.

If not, then we might have a conversation.

[endersdragon34]

28. Your really starting to get on my nerves

PROVE THAT IT IS FALSE PROPERGANDA. I don't even care if its with one of your leftist sites. Prove what I say is properganda.

For example, that school is not trying to privatize anything. Its trying to save asperger's kids from ignorant people like you from turning them in to the next Ryan Patrick Halligan (look it up though I am sure you will deny all of it even as you try to shut the school down).

EVERY child has an equal chance of getting into that school as they determine admission by lottery (which from what I have heard they have to by Utah State law) as do most charter schools. Heck because of that they don't even have stictly asperger's students (they have some moderate to low functioning autistics rather then aspies that would benefit from the school more because they have to be totally fair). So how exactly are they the enemy of equity and equal opportunity. (Didn't see that one coming did you?)

In fact I have heard of many charter schools like that. Its not too hard to make charter schools take on everyone, just make it part of the state/school district law. So they aren't as a whole the enemy of equity and equal opportunity, they just can be.

P.S. If you would have clicked one part of that website you could have easily found out they use a lottery to determine admission.

[LWolf]

30. You don't need a website to prove it.

It has nothing to do with being "leftist." :eyes:

Interesting that you should assume that anyone opposed to charter schools must be a "leftist," and that your tone seems to indicate censure of the left.

Just for the sake of clarity: Yes, I'm a leftist.

I've also been in public education long enough to watch the privatization agenda evolve over time. Another DUer posted this timeline:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5251132

Want evidence that charter schools use public money without the public oversight that is required of other schools?

Simply show up at a school board meeting, where the status of a charter is being discussed. I've been to many.

Or meet with charter school administrators, and ask them to discuss what public regulations they do, and don't, follow. I've been there, too.

I've been on the end of recruitment efforts by charter schools. I have worked with some teachers from local charter schools.

Frequent contact with charter school administrators and teachers offers abundant evidence of freedom from the rules, regs, and oversight that standardizes public schools.

[endersdragon34]

34. Just a note

I asked for proof not opinions. And once again I don't define public school by rules and regulations, so I don't give a damn if charter schools bend them for the sake of their students. But anyway I can't see you try to go against a professionally done article and professionally done studies. To bad I will have to go soon.

[LWolf]

36. So go talk to the admins of your local charter schools.

Make a comparison list of what public regulations they follow, and what they don't.

Then ask them how much public money they get.

Go to the primary source of the "proof." Charter schools take public money without the same public regulation that public schools operate under.

Unless you really don't WANT proof.

[endersdragon34]

41. No need

I don't define a school by the regulations it follows and they get the exact same per pupil as the public schools do. And just one source would go a long long way.

[LWolf]

43. It's not defining a school.

It's defining PUBLIC schools, and the public school system.

Charter schools increase inequity in that system.

What is it about that inquity that you don't, or don't want, to get?

[endersdragon34]

46. Equality of students not schools

Schools are just institutions, so I don't really care about them. For example do you really have a problem with the USPS? Probably not. Yet they are one of the least equal parts of government in existance. They are the only ones that can deliver to a P.O. Box and they are the only ones that can touch your mail box, thats inequality for you. If the students are equal thats what I care about, and if every student has an equal chance to go to charter schools and charter schools are created and grown to meet demand for them in the system (and as stats show its generally the poorer minority students who use them) thats equality to me.

[LWolf]

47. Equality of opportunity is the point.

Making sure that every student finds the opportunities most beneficial to their intellectual, social, and emotional growth within the system, not without.

Since there is no "one-size-fits-all," that means re-vamping the ed code to provide needed safety and oversight, but rolling back authoritarian, top-down control on materials, methodologies, schedules, etc..

It means giving every school the advantages that a charter school outside the system enjoys.

Equity.

[endersdragon34]

49. Why not just make enough charter schools that everyone can go to one?

..and leaving schools outside that for those who don't want to go there. Once again equality of students not schools. Providing enough control over the charter schools that charters will be revoked if the school is proving harmful to students, but having enough deregulation that school can fulfil a need in society without fear of repisial. I don't know that doesn't seem like a harmful idea to me.

[LWolf]

51. Why not make sure that the public school system is equitable?

Why not do what we need to do WITHIN the system, instead of going outside, and undermining the system?

Why support a tool that makes it possible to further degrade the system, instead of making the system better?

[endersdragon34]

55. If it further degrades the system

No one will choose to send their kids there. If it makes the system better parents will choose to send their kids there. And not one of your suggestions suggested a student just for aspies or just for artistic kids or anything like that. In fact much of that would inherientally go against the regulations you seem to love. But beyond that I wouldn't mind turning all public schools into charter schools and giving them the exact same amount of freedom as charter schools... but then they would become charter schools :-/.

[LWolf]

57. A vigorous, healthy system of public education

is vital to maintaining any pretense of democracy in a what passes for a democratic republic.

The right wing has been working for my lifetime, at least, to undermine, degrade, and finally, privatize public education. It's a power play. The gatekeepers can choose who gets a high quality education, who gets poor quality, and who gets none. Who is able to move on into positions of power, and who will be denied. Who will provide the next generation of cheap labor and cannon fodder. Who will be taught to think, and who will be taught to believe what they hear.

That's a dangerous agenda. I'm sorry you buy into it.

[endersdragon34]

58. I am sorry...

...you enjoy asperger's students getting tortured in the public education system you love so much. :) And the gatekeepers don't keep anyone out of a charter school. If they did why would poor/minority students take advantage of them more often. Most charter schools opporate on a lottery, so theres no gatekeepers. What don't you get about that?

[LWolf]

62. Actually, I've just enjoyed my asperger's students.

And they were not tortured under my care. I have one currently in my regular ed class, but he is certainly not the first.

It IS possible to nurture the best in human nature, rather than the worst.

Is this all about autism and asperger's to you? You can't see beyond one particular group of students with special characteristics and needs to the bigger picture?

[endersdragon34]

66. Bullies happen

Watch Autism: the Musical sometime (and note both Henry and Wyatt were forced into a special education private school, an option for them not for everyone considering tution can be anywhere from $15,000-35,000... it helps to have a rock star dad I guess), or read "Freak, Geeks, and Asperger's Syndrome" (and note that boy ended up dropping out of school because of bullying despite being intelligent enough to write a book used by many psychologists/teachers/etc. at the age of 13) or any number of books or movies about asperger's syndrome. They will all talk about how horrible bullying is for Asperger's kids is and how hard it is for us to find an appropriate school.

And no its not all about autism and asperger's to me, its just something that I can relate to. Though for example, I also know how crappy gifted students have it (as one of the mothers I help out said, "Its like he spends 1 hour a week with his mental peers and the rest of the week with mentally retarded kids"), or how crappy artistic students have it, etc. Those students have no real place for them.

And FYI I hate utiltartiarism... to me that just means you don't give a damn about kids like me.

[LWolf]

77. Of course bullies happen.

They aren't inevitable, though.

Our culture nurtures the formation of bullies, and rewards bullies for their growth. That's a cultural issue, not an educational issue.

Given an appropriate structure and setting, we can manage bullying. In the case of my asperger's, and other students with social differences, I've found it helps to spend a lot of time on community, team-building, and to explicitly and overtly teach the celebration of differences.

It's not logical, feasible, nor efficient to try to segregate students into different schools by specific traits or characteristics that might provoke bullies. It's logical to bring diverse people together to learn and work together, and from each other, just like real life. It's also logical to explicitly teach the behaviors that are necessary for the health of the community.

Speaking of which, you wouldn't happen to be an aspie yourself, would you? I thought of that yesterday, after I'd read, responded, and logged off. Some of your posts make more sense to me in that light.

[endersdragon34]

80. Of course its an educational issue

Unless you think a student getting depressed and ceasing to learn has no impact on their education. Look at the Ryan Patrick Halligans of the world and try telling them that bullies aren't an issue worth creating a school over. Yes yes I know we can't do this everywhere, but where its been done, either with magnet, private, or charter schools it works great. Beyond that severe ADHD, asperger's, and HFA kids all get along extremely well together (as do kids with other mild disabilities) and all know what its like to be bullied. Why not create a charter school that serves all of them, no need to discriminate.

Just curious what grade do you teach? I am guessing elementry school. See in elementry school those sorts of strategies work quite well... by the time you move up the scale to where a kid might have 7 teachers at a time (and seven different sets of classmates) it doesn't work so well. And that is when bullying is at its worst as kids become less and less tolerant of differences (not to mention become more and more clicky).

But I am going to do you a favor. Go to a yahoo group called Asperger's Support (its where my friend and I came from) and notice the issues these parents (most of whom have given up on public education altogether, generally in favor of homeschooling) are dealing with when it comes to public schooling... maybe then you might get a glimpse of what it means to be an aspie in todays society. Then try telling them to their face, that there shouldn't be schools designed to work for their kids... you won't get very far.

[LWolf]

95. I think that there are numerous things

that affect learning, and one's educational experience, that are not educational issues, but societal dysfunctions:

poverty
prejudice
the American passion for competition
abuse, neglect, lack of attention and appropriate discipline at home

The educational system is there to offer educational opportunity, not to solve the nation's social problems for her.

Address those dysfunctions at the societal level, and they will decrease at school. Delegate them to "the schools" and you get today's environment; a system put in place to educate, not police or parent, trying to do all 3, and struggling.

[endersdragon34]

98. I agree actually

But bullying in particular takes place at school. Almost all bullying that an aspie ever receives starts at school... if we can provide a bully-free environment somewhere else... that will be able to educate them better by providing programs more appropriate for them (karate class instead of gym for example, karate is great for kids with asperger's and ADHD and some charters are already doing this) why not do it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Awesome post you linked

Incredibly brilliant too :hi:

[LWolf]

109. That it is.

;)

:hi:

[endersdragon34]

29. P.S.

I hate privatization when the school district itself is offering the exact same opportunities. When the school distict isn't offering the same opportunities and every student can make use of the privatization I can't be all that against it.

[LWolf]

31. If that's the case,

then the goal should be to make sure that public schools CAN offer those opportunities.

That is a different agenda, and would require different actions, than pushing charter schools.

Edited to add:

It's been my agenda for 3 decades now. And charter schools weaken the effort.

[endersdragon34]

33. Like I said

I define public school as free schooling avaible to all. You define it by rules and regulations. So to me they are the same thing.

[LWolf]

37. I define public schooling

as non-profit, publicly funded education that offers equal opportunity, and that operates under public oversight to regulate how those funds are spent.

[endersdragon34]

40. So whats your problem with charter schools?

Charter schools are generally non-profit and publicly funded. They provide equal opportunity. And they certainly have many forms of regulation, even if not the exact same forms of regulation. So whats your problem?

[LWolf]

44. Once again:

First of all, not all charter schools are non-profit. Edison schools, for example.

Secondly, charter schools use public money, and benefit from freedoms that public schools operating in the system do not.

That's inequity.

[endersdragon34]

45. LOL now your just being picky

For example you now (for the first time) don't have a problem with all charter schools (now thats some progress :) ) just some. Good. And for the 20th time, I don't care what regulations they do and don't have. It should be about equality of the students not equality of the schools, and if every student has an equal chance of going to one of these, thats equality to me.

[LWolf]

48. How disingenuous can one be?

Until every district in the nation operates as a group of "schools of choice," allowing all families within that district the option of choosing a school based on it's different programs, methodologies, etc., then every student will not have the opportunity to choose a school based on its differences from the rest of the schools around it.

That kind of restructuring will never happen when you allow some schools to step outside the rules, and standardize the rest.

[endersdragon34]

53. Equality of students not schools

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT SCHOOLS BEING EQUAL! So in my mind we should have charter schools in every school district (and hopefully find a way to provide equal funding to every school district), provide open enrollment so people can get to the school districts with charter schools (cause lets face it, Ft. Madison, Iowa (for example) is never going to have that many schools of choice), and provide enough charter schools that any student who wants to go to one can (and any sctudent who wants to stay in the public schools can) and we will see what the students decide.

[LWolf]

56. lol

Schools shouldn't be equal; they should have equal opportunity to design and implement custom educational experiences.

When they are, then students have equal opportunity to choose.

If you don't give a damn about the system, then you don't give a damn about the students they serve.

[endersdragon34]

59. LOL

If we allow more charter schools, and provide them for any student at all who wishes to take advantage of them thats equality to me. And students do have equal opportunity to choose now, the only process hurting that is lack of charter schools... bet you know my solution to that.

P.S. Like it or not charter schools are now part of the system, and you don't give a damn about them.

[LWolf]

63. charter schools are EXEMPT

from the regulations that would make them part of the system.

They are also not the "savior" of public education, presenting them that way doesn't help your admittedly weak case.

The more you talk, the more I hear that you are actually fine with "one size fits all" solutions, as long as the solution in question is "charter schools."

[endersdragon34]

67. Charter schools are not one size fits all though :-/

All charter schools are different and work differently, unlike all neighborhood schools which roughly work the same. If we have enough charter schools that everyone who wants to use them can, who cares if they are all equal. We give charter schools to anyone who wants that option and neighborhood/magnet schools to anyone who wants that option and let the people decide.

[LWolf]

78. Charter schools are not one-size-fits all.

If there weren't a political agenda to standardize public schools into one-size-fits-all factories, thus destroying the system and opening the door to further privatization, All public schools would have the flexibility to customize their services.

Which is the point I've been making, repeatedly, for 2 days now.

[endersdragon34]

79. So why not let the parents decide?

I have no problem with unstandardizing public schools (though they were pretty standardized back in the 90s as I remember it) but that doesn't mean no charter schools have a place in the world.

[LWolf]

96. That would be the point

of allowing public schools to differentiate their offerings: parent choice within the district.

[endersdragon34]

99. Okay I have no problem with allowing schools to differentiate

but why not allow charter schools outside the system that won't worry about taking the kids with the worst problems? I still think you like the idea of charter schools, just not the name. You just want every school to be a charter school. I agree with you there... so why are we arguing? BTW in your system will you be okay for open enrollment for someone from Ft. Madison, Iowa for example (I believe they have one high school, one middle school, and one elementry school in that area) or would that cause you to worry too much about white flight.

[endersdragon34]

32. P.S.S. Good article about Charter schools and equal opportunities

http://www.jlup.org/journal/vol3no3/Skabla_Charter_Schools.pdf (sorry forgot to add the link initally)


A couple of noteable passages:

"Another argument is that only the most affluent children attending public schools
will move to the charter schools.29 National statistics show this is not the case. A
2004 report commissioned by the United States Department of Education shows
that charter schools serve a disproportionate number of poor and minority
students as compared to public schools.30"

"Overall, students rated the charter school they were currently enrolled in
as ‘excellent’ 4.9% more often than their previous schools and as ‘good’ 14.5%
more often.33 The same polling of students also rated their likes and dislikes of
their current schools. A majority of students rated academics, such as good
teachers, the fact that they “teach it until they learn it,” and that the teachers do
not let the students fall behind, as the main reasons why they like the charter
schools.34"

"Parents polled showed overwhelming support for the charter schools, with
two-thirds claiming that the current charter school is better than the previous
public school with respect to class size, school size, attention from teachers,
quality of instruction, and curriculum.35" (And also its important to note they do this with the exact same amout of money per pupil)

I read it all but it tends to drag on from there a bit to things we agree on for the most part. The best part is between pages 5-8. So are you going to go against a law and policy school at a major college... would be interesting if you did. The burden of proof is on you now I think.

[LuckyLib]

35. Hear, hear! And no room for "But, but, but, . . . . . " Your list would begin to solve so many

seemingly intractible problems with preparing our young people for the future.

You have to be an educator. Only someone who's been "in the trenches" gets it to this extent!

Thanks!

[LWolf]

38. Yes, I'm a teacher.

26 years in the trenches, and counting.

Thanks for your support.

:hi:

[LuckyLib]

39. As I read all these threads and responses on teachers and schools I just shake my head.

These are very complex and complicated problems, and there are no easy answers or knee-jerk solutions. Unfortunately, our culture seems to love both of the above, as well as blaming either kids and their families or teachers for the struggle to educate our next generation. The only thing we can do is patiently stress how many variables are at work here when we talk about 'reforming schools' and 'closing the achievement gap'. Your list went a long way to making clear the multiple influences teachers address in their work. Bravo!

[LWolf]

42. Thanks for your support.

It helps.

:hi:

[Sancho]

94. Thank you!

:thumbsup:

[tonysam]

19. And to Destroy Public Education is Anti-American.

Anybody who promotes privatization schemes and business models for education, including the fictitious "merit pay," is anti-American.

[SpiderMom]

70. Trying to catch up...

So, I've been reading this lively discussion about the merits of charter schools and public schools, and I have finally reached the point where I feel the need to respond.

In a perfect world, public schools would not be driven by NCLB and would not be, in many ways, broken. We would all send our children to the school in our neighborhood, and their needs would be met. Rich, poor, black, white, disabled, gifted... all of their needs would be met. That would be a beautiful day, and I'd love to see that happen.

However, indulge me by letting me share my story...

I am the mother of an amazing 7.5 year old little boy. I've known he was "different" since at least his second birthday, when he was reading the color words to me off his crayons. Beyond that, he also showed extreme sensitivities to things like swinging, riding a bike, and his social interactions with other children were (and are still), well, odd. That's a very simplified, quickie version of my child... but you get the gist.

Two years ago at four, my child entered into the public education system of NC into a year-round kindergarten. My child started school (who was by now reading at a third grade level), and shortly thereafter started showing signs of extreme anxiety. He simply shut down and started worrying to such extent that he couldn't even walk 5 houses down to the playground for fear a car would run over him. After extensive psychological testing, cognitive therapy, occupational therapy, etc. it was determined that he showed signs of Asperger's Syndrome, General Anxiety Disorder, and had an IQ of at least 150 (some scores were ceiling scores, so likely higher).

The school tried to accommodate him by allowing subject acceleration in reading for the remainder of kindergarten. That simply wasn't enough, but we tried it. First grade started, and it was like starting over again. New principal, new teacher... we had to get subject acceleration in place again, which took at least 18 weeks. The school was overcrowded, the teachers stressed by NCLB requirements and behavioral issues. There were days when the teacher literally had him shelving books because she didn't know what to do with him. My son was rarely taken to the second grade classroom (in a different building) for the subject acceleration. After much debate and discussion, it was decided that he should accelerate permanently to 2nd grade for the remainder of the year.

In second grade, some of his educational needs were partially being met. Although, in math he was now leaps and bounds beyond the second graders! Still a big problem. And socially, he didn't fit in not only because he was six and in second grade but also because even for a six year old he was quirky due to the Asperger's issues on top of the giftedness. We had a very caring, wonderful second grade teacher, and she flat out told us that the school was not set up for a child like ours. The principal even agreed. And, truthfully, we couldn't see allowing our six year old to go into third grade the next year.

We looked at Montessori options for the next year. Not an option really due to cost and due to the fact that they only go up to 3rd grade in my local area. Then we looked to charter schools. We applied to a couple in our area that seemed to know how to help our child, but did not gain admittance due to the lottery system and not enough spots available. Private school was not an option due to financial constraints.

So what option did we choose? I am homeschooling this year. My tax dollars are paying for an education in the public schools that my child simply cannot take advantage of. So, yes, in a perfect world public schools would suit everyone. But the fact remains that right now they just don't. I don't want to get into a debate about the merits of homeschooling, but I do want to know how kids like mine who are twice exceptional can ever fit into mainstream public school?

There need to be more choices, not less. Maybe if there had not been a cap on charter schools, my son would have had an alternative this year. What option did I possibly have given the situation as it stands now?

BTW, my mother is a third grade public school teacher at a Title 1 school in NC, so I am well aware of the issues teachers face. And, just for arguments sake, I am a registered Democrat, voted for Obama, and am not at all homeschooling for religious reasons.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Your tax dollars pay to educate your community's children, not just your own child

I am also not aware of any charters that cater to children like your son who have special needs. In my district, the charter schools would likely refuse to admit him in the first place. But perhaps some communities have charter schools that serve kids with challenges like your son.

It sounds like special education programming would be what your son needs but since he is so bright, it might be tough to qualify him. Gifted programs are not mandated under federal special ed regulations but there are grants made available to states to create their own gifted programs and they are generally supervised by special ed administrators. You could probably get more information from your state's dept of education.

I would also encourage you to investigate more public school or even private school opportunities because socialization is going to be increasingly important for your son. It sounds like academics are going to be easy for him. Making friends and working with his peers are going to be the important things your son will gain from his education.

[endersdragon34]

74. I am good friends with her...

and she told me that me saying "**** you" would be appropriate, and she will respond later (shes going to her sons scouting meeting now... thats where a lot of kids get socialization attempts right?). Have you ever been a twice exceptional kid in school? I mean honestly how the **** can you say things like that. How do you know what our needs are. Academics are going to be easy for us? Yeah sure if you don't mind being bored 8 hours straight a day (well I suppose lunch and recess generally aren't that boring for us.) But you are right about one thing... we certainly don't stand to gain any chance to learn anything besides how to socialize in school, cause God forbid we do that.

Also it would seem you have never heard of a little thing called Least Restrictive Environment... and you claim to be a teacher... LOL I find that HIGHLY unlikely. He shouldn't be in special education anymore then any neurotically kid should be, it would be nice to place him around his peers, but thats just for his own benefit, not for yours. He does have problems with his social skills... but there are very very very few special education programs in America that will help him with that (and most of them are... :gasp: charter schools!)

And yes there are many many charter schools that are designed for kids with disabilities. I could post a few here if you would like. And her son applied for a charter school for gifted students (they must have an IQ of over 145 to apply) earlier this year, but due to lack of openings (that it sounds like you feel is a good thing) her son was denied... funny that.

P.S. Before you go and say I think he should be in special education... theres a difference between saying he should be in a school designed to meet his needs... and a room in school designed to meet the needs of kids with an IQ less then half of his.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. I am a special ed teacher with a masters degree

and 30 years of experience working with kids like you. With hundreds of success stories on my resume.


While you are . . .

[endersdragon34]

76. God help us all...

FYI I find the phrase "like me" to be quite insulting... would you say that to a neurotypical kid? Probably not... So what are some of your examples of success stories and why are you so eager to shove a stuent with a 150+ IQ into special education programming?

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. The children I teach have not been shoved into anything

They are taught by caring and highly trained professionals in a small group environment where their individual learning needs can be met. My students make AYP every year. Parents all across our district request their children be placed in my program. I have taught several kids who have come from charter schools and homeschooling. Several have had very high IQs. 99% of them are happy and make great progress.

[endersdragon34]

83. Have they had parades in your honor before

Or is your head not quite that big?

P.S. If you define great progress as AYP... I seriously question you. For a gifted student AYP is nothing, and nor should it be. No one with a 150 IQ should be in the same class as kids with 50 IQs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Most of my kids are not gifted

Many are mentally retarded. So yes, making AYP is indeed a big deal. A very big deal. I am one of the few sped teachers in my district to accomplish that - and every year.

Don't know about a parade. But if they do I will take pictures and post them.

[endersdragon34]

85. So you recommand gifted kids be in the same class as mainly mentally retarded kids...

Not to mention have asperger's kids there too. That seems very wrong to me. It also seems to describe the problem that Spidermom and I have with public education in general. They have no place for twice exceptional aspies (or regular aspies for that matter) to exist so we get shoved off into special education (like you recommanded for her son in your infinate arrogance) or we are made to be tortured in the mainstream classroom not really learning anything and being bullied from middle school on. Are you really going to sit there and try telling me that this is a good thing?

Though you really do need to learn about modesty, if your a Christian read up on the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, you might learn something.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. Yes public schools educate all and exclude none

That would be the point of a well rounded education. No kids deserve opportunities all kids don't have.

Do you have a problem with kids who have mental retardation? What is wrong with educating them alongside aspergers kids?

[endersdragon34]

87. Would you have liked to have been in sped when you were a kid?

I have no problem with kids who are mental retarded, I just don't think asperger's students belong there anymore then neurotypical kids belong there. There is also a big difference between being in the same school as mentally retarded kids and being in the same classroom for every class with them. Something tells me you wouldn't have wanted to be in special education when you were a kid, why should I or her son?

P.S. Is there some reason your just responding to me now, not that I have a problem with it, but it is kindof weird considering shes the one who has a son you feel belongs in special education despite having a 150+ IQ.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. And you are assuming there is something wrong with special education or the kids enrolled in sped

Nice.

[endersdragon34]

91. LOL way to avoid the question

There is nothing wrong with most first graders, but when I am in 6th grade I would rather not be in a first grade classroom. When you suggest special education for someone with a 150 IQ it becomes clear you don't give a damn about least restrictive environment and therefore break federal (and probably state and local) law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. And you lack a basic undestanding of how special ed programming works

Perhaps you should do some research before making more comments. :shrug:

[endersdragon34]

100. I am pretty sure a kid with a 150 IQ doesn't belong in special education

BTW you have a basic problem with understanding both how charter schools and homeschooling work, and how much life sucks for the avg. gifted aspie (despite having allegedly taught them for, what was it, 37 years). But feel free to tell me where I am wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. Special education also serves kids with social/emotional needs

And some kids with 150 IQs can and do have learning disabilities.

Like I said, you are out of your league in this conversation.

[endersdragon34]

102. Funny thing about that

People like Amy there... agree with me. Just ask her. So what kinds of services do you give your asperger's students with 150 IQs and do you educate them all at anywhere near their level... or just at yours.

[noamnety]

103. hold up here

While proud2BlibKansan and I disagree on charter schools, I do have to stand up here for what she is saying.

We have gifted students with aspergers at our school and they do get special ed services and IEPs. They are still mainstreamed (and in honors classes as appropriate) for 6 of our 7 hours, and the other hour typically they would spend in the learning resource room. That doesn't mean they are learning the same lesson plan as the other kids in that hour - it means they are getting study skills, or social skills, or having a down hour where they can unwind ... it's not like they thrown into in academic classes with students who are severely cognitively impaired for 8 hours a day.

Some of our kids with aspergers spend a year or two with the learning resource center in their schedule, and then sort of graduate out of it (I'm sure there's a name for that, I'm not a special ed teacher.) And at least one who did that - who had an IEP and got special services - has been our valedictorian.

From informal discussions with our special ed teacher, I know that even the gifted students who have her for an hour think she is great - and some things she does with them include giving them tasks like saying hello to 5 people, or giving them coping strategies for panic attacks or temper issues, or giving them a quiet secluded spot where they are allowed to take any tests for their classes. Sometimes the distractions in a regular classroom can affect their test scores otherwise.

There are a lot of reasons why a gifted student might take advantage of special ed services - and that shouldn't interfere with them also getting an appropriate education for a gifted student. That's been my experience teaching in a charter anyway, and I don't see any reason to think traditional public schools aren't offering the same services there.

On the flip side, there are also cases like my husband who is dyslexic and gifted, and he spent his public school education being shuttled through remedial classes because of his reading skills - and then being bounced back to mainstreamed classes when the remedial English teacher realized he didn't belong there - and bounced back down again by the next teacher. He had a continual problem with teachers not recognizing the difference between intelligence and disabilities.

[endersdragon34]

104. I have no problem with any of that

In fact thats a lot of what charter schools will do. But everything she suggested made it sound like she was putting gifted asperger's kids in the normal special education room (and note how she reacted when I suggested such, like I was being rude for not wanting kids like me to be in a special education room as I think I put it most of the day.)

Beyond that as a formerly gifted AS kid... we have no business being on the same lesson plan as even our mainstreamed classmates. Look at Amy's son for example, being ready for second grade by 7, and still learning faster then her classmates... and then she gets flamed for homeschooling her son, because after all school will be easy for her son... Give me a break

And you would be amazed at how much special education services will hold gifted students back. The fact that I received them was one of the main reasons they never skipped me ahead a grade even when I test above level in every area (several grades above level in some areas). I was ready for high school mathmatics by 3rd grade... but I was only being taught multiplication in school (which I had known from before the end of my first grade year).

And yes your last scenerio happens all the time. Thank God never for me.

[noamnety]

105. Yes, I understand this:

"we have no business being on the same lesson plan as even our mainstreamed classmates"

I think the solution is to be on the same lesson plans as other gifted classmates. I had the same math situation as you - placed into 6th grade math several years ahead of 6th grade (the first year they let us test into a math class), and stayed in 6th grade math for a few years because that was as high as we could place into in elementary school. Then I got to seventh grade, and damned if it wasn't a full year of a review of 6th grade math.

That's yet another flaw with NCLB - a school that does that to a kid is considered a "success" - and is making Annual Yearly Progress - even though the students themselves may not be making any progress at all because the system doesn't allow for it.

That's part of the reason why I always use the word equitable instead of equal in education - and part of the reason I reject the notion that traditional public schools can solve all their problems with more funding. They need more funding, there's no doubt about that - but they also need to change their overall system in ways people aren't willing to acknowledge or address.

So we get this outrage that charter schools are able to bypass local oversight of some regulations - but when you try to nail down what those regulations are ... sometimes they are things like extreme oversight of lesson plans being aligned to the curriculum (subject by subject) which isn't necessarily how all children (or even most children) learn best, and certainly isn't how places like Waldorf schools operate. It isn't the only way, or the best way, but it's the state mandated way because it's easier to assess credit hours and transfer them when everyone is on the same system. Some of our educational system is designed for ease of administration, in other words, rather than learning effectiveness.

[endersdragon34]

106. Giftedness is so varied

I was in high school before I ever knew a kid who was anywhere near as gifted as me in math (or at least I was, I stopped being so gifted when I stopped being educated) in my own school (did Math Counts one year... there was certainly gifted kids there but were all privately educated at the local gifted school that we could never afford.) If not for a charter school or the like, I would have been the only one on my lesson plan. Thats why we need charter schools and magnet schools and other school choice options.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Thank you

We are in agreement :)

As for your husband, my degree is in LD and I have worked with many kids like him. I think most other LD/sped teachers would agree that they are probably the most difficult kids we have, in terms of the amount and type of academic remediation they need. So I am not surprised to hear he was shuttled through remedial classes. I hope we do better than that today.

[SpiderMom]

81. I didn't sign on to educate the community

There are, indeed, charter schools that serve children like my son. There just aren't enough spaces available for my child, and/or I would have to relocate my entire family to attend them.

For the sake of clarity on my part, are you saying that there are grants for gifted programs within special education? If so, that is news to me, and I would like more information about that. In my school district, gifted education is a once a week, one hour pull-out program that doesn't even begin until 4th grade (which is really a joke for a kid with an IQ of 150 anyway). And the general consensus of many on the school board and in the community (and throughout the nation) is that gifted education is a "frill". Giftedness is almost a dirty word anymore, and it's difficult to imagine anyone jumping at the chance to willingly add more services. Your own attitude seems telling since you say that academics will be easy for my son. As a child who grew up gifted in traditional, public schools, academics are not only "easy" but typically exceptionally boring for gifted children. Why on earth would I want my child to go through the brain drain that typically occurs with so many gifted children in traditional public schools? What a waste of an incredible mind!

As far as making friends and working with his peers, well that was part of the reason I took him out of school in the first place. He was an outcast at school, and, as I'm sure you are aware, kids are so quick to pick up on differences no matter how small. The problems were sure to only get worse. By homeschooling, we can choose the activities he truly wants to attend, find kids of different ages and similar intellect for him to socialize with (and it's been surprising just how many kids in my area are being home schooled because they are also exceptionally gifted), and study the subjects that fascinate him to as much detail as we see fit. He has ample opportunity to socialize with other homeschooled children and traditional schooled children alike. It is simply not possible to find that in a traditional school setting, because so often the goal is to bring and keep everyone on the same level.

And I don't mean to sound selfish, but if I'm paying for my child's education out of my own pocket because I truly did not see any other options (and the expense is considerable), why should my tax dollars be funding other children's education and not my own? But that's really a different debate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. And I didn't sign on to build roads or maintain parks

Education is a community responsibility. It's not an option where you can choose whether or not you want to fund schools. And yes, IMO, it does sound selfish to complain about it. My kids are grown and out of school. Should I get a refund on my taxes? Since I do understand the value of good schools (and from a selfish standpoint, it does help my property values to live in a good school district), I don't complain about funding my local schools.

Gifted ed is not mandated under IDEA. But states are allowed to apply for grants for their own gifted programs. If you don't like what your district or your state does for gifted kids then you should express your concerns to your local officials.

[endersdragon34]

92. Can I offer a suggestion

She doesn't want to stop paying for education, she just thinks if everyone elses son/daughter benefits from it, hers should too, even if that means having charter school options.

[MedleyMisty]

90. Your son is lucky

There's no way my mother could have homeschooled - my father died when I was seven. And really I don't think that the option would have occurred to her even if we could have handled it economically.

Of course I'm lucky too in that I graduated from high school in 1999 and so got out before NCLB.

Where are you in NC? I'm in Charlotte now but grew up in Surry County.

I could send you a list of gifted resources if you like. I'm not a parent but I have been researching it for a while now and of course most of the stuff available is for parents and about kids.

Oh, one thing I can share from my experience - start looking into Duke's TIP program. I took the SAT in 7th grade and my verbal score qualified me for their summer programs. There are scholarships available - I got a full one every year. The first summer I went to Davidson and then I went to Duke every summer after that and it was really one of the best experiences of my life. You get to take interesting classes and meet other gifted kids and it just rocks. And I think they're doing stuff for younger kids too now.

http://www.tip.duke.edu/

[SpiderMom]

93. Always happy to have more info!

I am in Hillsborough, NC... right smack in the middle between Duke and UNC. (I grew up in Statesville, graduated in 1992... went to Surry County for football games on occasion.)

There is a terrific homeschooling community in this area of NC, and I feel very fortunate to be living here. There's even a sub-group of gifted homeschoolers, so we're able to get together regularly with those families and kids for both social and educational activities. Homeschooling is not always easy, but it has been the best decision our family ever made. I'm not sure how long we will do it, but, for now, it's an excellent solution for our child. We'll stick with it as long as it works for us.

I actually applied two years ago for Davidson's Young Scholars program for exceptionally gifted children. My child met their requirements, but they wanted a portfolio of examples of his abilities. At the time, we were going through hell on earth and I truly had nothing that I could give them. I plan to give it a try again, but I'm afraid now it will require us to go through IQ testing again since our testing was over two years ago now. I understand that their support services are phenomenal, so it probably is worth the effort. I have also heard wonderful things about TIP, and am trying to learn all I can about it.

I'd be happy to have any resources you can provide. I've researched and read as much as I can get my hands on, but there is still much to learn. Any info about twice exceptional gifted kids would be wonderful, since we are also dealing with Asperger's Syndrome.

Thanks!!

[femmocrat]

8. Unfortunately, many of them vote for republicans.

Not all teachers are democrats! I couldn't believe how many (that I know) supported bush. :puke:

[Dinger]

13. LOTS More Are Dems

And in Wisconsin, we have been a powerful voice . We can be powerful in getting republicans, pseudo-Dems, and "armchair teachers" out too.

[Bergeret]

107. There are 6.2 million teachers in the US

That's a lot of votes. Hehe, good point.