UFC lightweight champ Sean Sherk was sitting ringside at the fight...

[Wetzelbill]

Mayweather and UFC president Dana White have had a war of words over the last month or so. Mayweather says any boxer could jump in the UFC and knock everybody out. White says he'll pay Mayweather lots of cash to fight Sherk. Which, of course, Floyd would never do. Not if he was smart anyway.

Here is more on it, plus a poll "Mayweather vs Sherk."

http://www.nbcsports.com/ufc/1432228/detail.html

[Ekirh]

1. So out with the

Boxer versus Wrestler hypothetical questions of old. . and in with the Boxer versus MMAer of new . .

if anything it be more interesting than the clips of Ali versus Inoki I've watched before. (Although the site of seeing Ali and Inoki in the same ring is still great. . . even better than Gorilla Monsoon and Ali doing a wrestling spot)

[Wetzelbill]

2. in terms of just seeing it, it would be interesting

for however long it lasted. It would be a bad move for a guy like Floyd because he'd be lucky to last more than a minute with Sherk, and then that would really hurt him financially. Not like he doesn't have enough already, but he's not a big draw in the first place, and it would hurt him to lose that badly. Which he would. Unless he somehow caught Sherk with one punch, but not likely.

[Ekirh]

5. Off topic . .

Who you got for UFC this month? Liddel or Rampage?

[Wetzelbill]

8. I would be surpised if Chuck didn't win

but not overly surprised. Rampage beat him once and is definitely capable of doing it again. But since that first time, Chuck has gotten way better, plus been on a major roll. Rampage had been brutally knocked out a few times etc. It's hard to tell if it's the same Rampage. He looked good against Eastman, but we'll see.

[H2O Man]

3. That's funny.

I think most average boxers from the amateur ranks would flatten the guys from the UFC.

[Awsi Dooger]

4. It would be a dream betting opportunity

I'd be salivating for months. The stiff handicappers would actually give the UFC guy a chance and you'd get a ridiculous bargain price on Mayweather, or anyone else.

Just like if a college football team played an NFL team. A top college team may look competitive but once they were on the same field as an NFL team the fans would gulp at how uncompetitive the game would be. You'd get a stupid pointspread like the worst NFL team a small favorite of a TD or two, and they would cover that many times over in the first half alone.

[Wetzelbill]

7. oh there is no way Mayweather would win

If he lasted more than 1 minute, I'd be surprised. Mayweather is a one-trick guy, he knows nothing else. He'd be taken down at will be a world champ like Sherk. Sherk's just way to skilled for him. Now if Sherk was dumb enough to stand up and try to trade with him, that would be one thing, but otherwise, it would be all over.

[H2O Man]

9. While I agree

that it wouldn't last 30 seconds, it's not because the fellow would pose any problem for Floyd.

[Ekirh]

11. See this is what I'm talking about. . .

The MMA verus Boxing argument ;).

Honestly I don't know how I'll go.. if the boxer can keep it a stand up competition.. I think hands down the boxer will take it.. if it gets taken to the ground I think the MMAer would really have the upperhand (It also depend on the MMAer and how well their ground work is . . . some of way better than others). .

Of course I watch more MMA than boxing (And I don't watch too much MMA.. just enough to say I'm a decent fan of it) so I can't give a strong opinion.

I think it's mostly mute.. cause be too much at stake. UFC is on a good surge right now . .. and I'm not sure if they would want to risk one of their guys getting schooled by a boxer.

speaking of MMA disasters.. still waiting for ex WWer Brock Lesner to make his MMA debut (I think in K-1)

[Wetzelbill]

14. that's old thought

Back to when nobody even knew what would happen in a fight. Until the last ten years the concept of what would happen in a fight is pure speculation. It's not anymore. People have to be well-rounded. Otherwise they'd be dead. Like I'd fight Floyd as a pure boxer anyday. With the skills he has now. Give me some time to get into shape and I highly doubt he could even beat me, let alone a guy like Sherk. If he stood the way he does now or tried that roll the shoulder defense. I'd salivate at that. Now Floyd is such a great athlete that if he was serious and spent a few years learning all kinds of stuff, maybe he could be competitive, but right now the average MMA guy his size would eat him up. Boxing really isn't fighting. Not anymore than wrestling is. It's just one facet of the game. But no, Floyd wouldn't even be competitive, that's not speculation, that's just a fact. It would be like saying Floyd could just step in and beat an Olympic champion wrestler in wrestler match, simply because Floyd knows how to tie people up in a clinch. Not going to happen.

[Awsi Dooger]

23. The difference in athletic ability would be shocking

And not in Sherk's favor.

But this is what I love about sports. People who set the odds and bet into them are prone to the same lame conclusions. I remember the great recent example, when Michael Johnson ran the compromise 150 meter dash against the Canadian 100 meter champ. Everyone I knew and respected agreed the 100 meter guy had all the best of it. You get the lead in a race like that and the adrenaline takes you to the finish line. It's just like a match race in horse racing where the front runner has all the best of it. Meanwhile, the 200 meter guy tenses up and falters. Yet the betting odds had Johnson a massive favorite. He got killed and actually pulled up to save embarrassment.

I realize that doesn't seem to directly apply here, but I guarantee if there were betting odds you would have MMA goofballs insisting Sherk had a chance, to the point he would be favored or at worst a much lesser underdog than warranted. A world class athlete like Mayweather wouldn't break a sweat in disposing of him.

Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. Remember that and you'll never go wrong in sports analysis. Speed kills. Running game prevails. Driving and putting in golf. Your argument is there has been a massive shift in fighting. Bullshit, to use a term from a recent thread. Boxing is an established sport and attracts the superior athlete. It is a true sport not trash sport. Give me the boxer every time and I'll take my chances and laugh my way to the collection window.

[Wetzelbill]

25. see you speculate

what your opinion is has been proven to be false. You look at the top ten pound for pound fighters in the world, and tell me, what sport any of them could be world-class at besides boxing. Very few of them. MMA has guys who have won gold medals or world championships in other sports.

It's not that there was a massive shift in fighting, it's just that we know what works. And being a striker alone does not work. Floyd would have to one punch people to even win, and that isn't easy to do. His athletic ability doesn't mean shit if he can't fight, and the guy can't fight. He can box, yeah, but that doesn't mean he can fight. It just means he can throw a punch, but Floyd is more of a defensive fighter anyway. His style of fighting wouldn't work, he'd have to relearn everything. One clinch and he'd be in serious trouble.

Name one boxer who has got into MMA who has just absolutely destroyed everybody? There has been pretty solid boxers who have tried. It's not the difference in athletic ability here that would be shocking, it would be the difference between a well-rounded fighter, who is an unbelievable grappler, and a one-dimensional boxer who wouldn't know what to do when he was clinched, shot on and taken to the ground. He'd be like a fish out of water. It's a fact, proven time and time again, a one-dimensional boxer, will lose to a decent MMA fighter.

[TroubleMan]

18. A pure boxer in an MMA match would be the college team.

And the same goes vice-versa for an MMA artist in a boxing match.

They're two different sports. Although MMA uses boxing as one of it's foundations, you can't use a pure boxing stance against a guy who's extremely good at takedowns...or even leg kicks. Look what happened to Ray Mercer when he went into kickboxing. He decided not to cross-train, and got KO'd with leg kicks. Add takedowns to that, and it's not fair.

Of course, the same with putting an MMA guy in a boxing match. Top level boxers have refined their art so much that an MMA guy can't compete at the top level. When the MMA guys can't kick, clinch, or take it to the ground, they are out of their element. In that case the MMA guy would be the college team.

This whole boxing vs MMA thing is BS...they're too different to pluck a guy out of one and have him compete at top level without cross-training. They're two different sports.

I'm a huge fan of both, and I don't understand what all this boxing vs MMA crap is about. They're different sports.

[Wetzelbill]

20. I'll give you another one

I was a serious wrestler, competed overseas etc. I rolled around with guys who did submission stuff when I was about 20 or so. Even that is way different. My instincts as a wrestler led me to practically walk into submissions. I would wrestle around with guys who were lesser athletes than me, but who could catch me in a choke quickly because I didn't know shit. Pure one-dimensional ignorance gets you beat. It doesn't matter if you are a boxer, kickboxer, a wrestler, or a submission guy, if that is all you know, the best MMA guys in the world, who are well-rounded fighters, will eat you alive. It's just how it is.

[Wetzelbill]

6. in a boxing match, never in an MMA fight

not even close. Boxers have tried it, lots of kickboxers too. It's not pretty.

[H2O Man]

10. What boxers? n/t

[Ekirh]

12. I know Butterbean

Did mix martial arts.. (Actually has a 10-3 record but I don't know much about the quality of his opponents) but other than that he will have to come back and give a better list than the one boxer I provide.

Note: Not trying to prove boxers can't go toe to toe with MMAers (In fact I just gave one with a winning record).. just giving the only answer to the question I know.

[TroubleMan]

16. His last win was by submission, and a few of his fights were "special rules."

First of all let me state that Butterbean has become a decent MMA artist. They brought him in on training wheels by giving him really, really easy opponents who have no ground game, and a few were "special rules" where they had an automatic stand-up after 15 seconds on the ground. For a few of his opponents, it was their first MMA match.

However, he has worked hard on his takedown defense and submissions. He has a load of girth, so once he learned how to use that weight correctly, he has become pretty good at keeping people from taking him down. His last opponent actually had a ground game, but Butterbean actually outworked him on the ground and submitted him with a keylock. He's a huge guy with heavy hands, and now that he's got a half way decent ground game, he's a legitimate threat to all mid-level guys. Still his only shot at beating the top level guys is a big punch, but he's been working very hard to be a legitimate MMA practitioner.

Here's his record:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=9394

You can click on his opponents to see how much experience they had. IMHO, the wins vs Cabbage (Wesley Correira) and James Thompson are good wins against decent opponents. All the other guys are not very good.

[Ekirh]

33. Thank you for the info N/T

[Wetzelbill]

13. Melton Bowen

was one of the first. Franz Botha did not too long ago. Yuri Vaulin fought in an early UFC. Ray Mercer got knocked out in K-1. Then when you say that you think an amateur boxer could win, well, lots of MMA guys were decent boxers. Like Stephan Bonnar is a Gold Gloves champ. Jens Pulver has a 4-0 pro record. Antonio Noguiera has boxed, and trains sometimes with the Cuban National Team. Vitor Belfort is undefeated as a pro boxer, and he's a BJJ black belt. It's different, you have to position your weight differently. I've boxed before, plus was an elite wrestler and know some jiu-jitsu. If you get in a fight and somebody stands up in a boxing stance, good luck, they'd get taken down in a heartbeat. Floyd would be way out of his element.

The one exception? Jeremy Williams. He started in MMA last year. But he had to relearn everything he did. He's submitted people using chokes. Fights way differently on his feet than a only a boxer would. If he didn't he'd be done. Williams is good not because he is a boxer, but because he's an actual fighter now. Well-rounded with good skills. There was a guy, a world champion kickboxer, just an animal, named Stefan Leko. He tried not ever learning anything but striking and never lasted more than a minute and a half in three fights agains marginal MMA guys. That's what happens to guys who only know one thing.

[H2O Man]

29. Many, many

years ago, I was in high school wrestling. I had boxed guys who won NYS wrestling titles, and was 4-0 against them. (Two 1-round KOs; one 2-rd KO; one 3-rd KO). I'm sure they would beat me in wrestling. In street fights, I would have beat them. Easily. Probably all at the same time.

But that's not my point. One of the times I reached my most unpopular points came when I was wrestling against a kid in his school. I was training for a fight. Anyhow, he shot in for a take down, and without thinking -- definitely without thinking -- I landed a quick right to his jaw. As he lay flat on his face, the entire gym started booing me. Even my own team.

I admit I know very little about the other "fighting sports." I am sure they are all good athletes, and tough guys. I'll have to watch some more of it on tv. I will say, though, that I don't know any boxers who were limited to only knowing how to box. Many, like Carmen Basilio, were tough street fighters who caught the eye of a retired boxer. Others have survived the youth facilities, jails, and prisons of this country. It would be an error to assume they are limited in their ability to fight.

[Wetzelbill]

31. that's funny that you knocked a guy out

like that. Once in practice, a guy shot on me, got my leg and I sprawled out and launched an crossface at him, it was more like and uppercut, but I hit him with my forearm and not my fist. He went out cold. He was stiff, I know you know what I mean, when somebody gets knocked cold and they still have there arms in the air, stiff. It was almost like I shot the guy, haha. I must have drilled him perfect.

None of this is worth arguing over. I mean, I love all the sports, been a boxing fan since I could ever remember. But the fact is, pure strikers don't do well in MMA. They never have. Now you got guys who are exceptional athletes and learned how to defend a few things, and they have become excellent fighters. The only thing I'm saying is a fighter has to be well-rounded to be successful. It's not a case of one thing being better than the other, it's more of a case of being a good all around fighter. That goes for anybody. Pure wrestlers used to come in and smash guys in the UFC, because they would just take guys down at will, and because nobody really knew anything back then, the guys would flounder around on the mat not knowing how to escape or defend themselves. Then all of a sudden wrestlers were getting taken out by Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys who would get taken down but catch people in weird chokes and stuff. Then after a while BJJ guys and wrestlers were getting stuffed by boxers and kickboxers who learned how to defend takedowns and would just smash guys on their feet. Somebody out of their element is almost like a child against a skilled guy. It's why an MMA guy would be a fool to stand up and trade with a striker. That's happened. MMA guys have fought boxers and kickboxers in K-1 and other organizations. That's not pretty either. Just like it's not pretty when some karate guy gets taken down to the mat and pounded by a grappler who they can't get away from.

[H2O Man]

32. Right.

I have two older brothers. We grew up very poor. All we could afford to do, besides farm work, was to fight and argue. So when I disagree with people on the DU:sports forum, it's not serious. My normal brother has started watching the MMA stuff, so it's only right that I dismiss it. (grin)

Actually, I have a couple friends who have NEVER let me forget my wrestling experience. I try not to think about that day -- more unpopular in that gym than I am among the four De La Hoya fans on DU.

[TroubleMan]

15. Sure...in a boxing only match, but not in an MMA match.

This boxing vs MMA thing is sort of a straw-man argument on both sides.

If you take any athlete out of his sport and have him compete with top level athletes in another sport, it's not fair.

(Assuming top guy vs top guy) If you put a pure boxer in an MMA match he'll lose. If you put an MMA guy in a pure boxing match, he'll lose. In fact many amateur and pro boxers have come into MMA - none of them have dominated (yet). However, boxing is a great foundation to base an MMA career on. In fact, you have to know boxing in order to compete at any level in MMA beyond the lowest levels.

The classical boxing stance is not the best stance to defend a takedown or leg kicks. For instance, Mayweather stands with his leg way out in front, which is bad for both leg kicks and takedowns. For Mayweather, he would have to change his stance a lot, and also the way he has a tendency to duck low and to the side when he dodges a punch would leave him open kicks or knees to the head. Mayweather would have to rework a lot of his stance and defense, and learn to sprawl, clinch, and basic submission defense. Mayweather is an incredible boxer, but his style is one of the worst crossovers to an MMA style. Also, the Mayweather vs Sherk argument is also a mismatch in weight class. Sherk cuts down to 155 from around 180-185 lbs. He's a much bigger guy than Mayweather. If Mayweather was to match up with somebody, it would be with Kid Yamamoto, who's the world's best at 145 in MMA. Great counter-punchers like Mayweather have done very well in MMA, but they have a wider stance, and also have great wrestling and takedown defense. Unless the payday was astronomical, I doubt he would be willing to retool his game this late in his career to make this happen.

However, there are several boxers who's style would crossover well into MMA. Ricky Hatton's style IMHO would be a good crossover. Muhammad Ali's style would have been good; because of his great foot work, he could circle and jab, circle and jab, and then sprawl or counter when they came in. There are several others, also, but to be truly successful they would have to do a large amount of cross-training, because you don't want to lose just because on one takedown.

Bodog reportedly is offering Fedor Emelianenko 3 million per fight, so MMA paydays are getting up there with boxing. A superfight would now generate enough interest to be and absolutely huge payday, so we may see these match-ups. However, I don't like the idea. Boxing is boxing....MMA is MMA. You can't take an NBA player and put him in the NFL and immediately expect him to succeed without a lot of practice and training (unless he already was playing that sport). You can't pluck a pure boxer out of boxing and put him against the top level of MMA without a lot of training...he won't win, and the same goes vice-versa. Great boxers can rise to the top in MMA, but they would need a lot of wrestling, submission defense, and need to learn how to check leg kicks.

[H2O Man]

30. Years ago

at the Broome County Arena, in Binghamton, NY, the promoters put an internationally recognized martial arts instructor again an amateur boxer in a "mixed" fight. The amateur boxer dusted the guy, easily. I'm not saying it would always happen, but there is a history. Old-timers like myself would point out Bob Fitzsimmons, for but one example .... though the younger generation might not be aware of why I would mention him.

Your point on athletes trying to change sports is absolutely on target. Wilt Chamberlain would have been humiliated if he tried to box Ali; and though, as Howard Cosell points out in his first book, Ali used to "practice" with a few of the NY Knicks, he wouldn't have been able to compete in the NBA. More, though Vince Lombardi said Ali would have made a great football player, Ali saw football as a "violent" sport.

[TroubleMan]

17. In a MMA fight Sherk wins easily. In a boxing match Mayweather wins easily.

It's not a fair fight either way. Sherk's takedowns are unstoppable even with guys who been practicing years on wrestling and takedowns. There's no way Mayweather could keep it standing, even to get one or two punches in. Also, Sherk couldn't stand up with Mayweather, but especially without the threat of a takedown. Sherk relies on ground and pound, and although he can handle himself in a MMA match where he can kick, clinch, and use dirty boxing...there's no way he can win in a Marquess of Queensbury rules matchup. In a MMA match, Sherk wins by a first round submission. In a boxing match, Mayweather wins with a 1st or 2nd round KO.

Also, as I stated earlier in the thread, Mayweather's style is not one that translates into MMA well, and Sherk is a bigger guy. It would be more of an argument to put Mayweather vs Kid Yamamoto.

[trumad]

19. Exactly

which makes the whole debate kind of silly....

[Wetzelbill]

21. the problem with the debate is

that it's not really a debate. MMA people don't say that a guy like Mayweather isn't skilled or isn't a great boxer. No serious MMA fan, fighter, trainer or promoter would actually say that boxing isn't a great sport with vital aspects to it. The problem is Mayweather, and some boxing writers, think that MMA is a lesser sport in terms of skill. Max Kellerman is an exception, he's not ignorant he knows that it's a hybrid sport that takes techniques from all disciplines that work in a fight. It's not a case of Boxing vs MMA really, it's more a case that Mayweather is so ignorant about fighting that he believes any boxer could jump in an MMA fight and knock everybody out. That idea went out 15 years ago. Nobody credible believes that anymore. A boxer isn't really a fighter, he/she is a boxer. Just the same as a wrestler isn't really a fighter, he/she is a wrestler. But is it good to know those skills? It sure is. Floyd happened to miss the revolution about what actually works in a fight, even though he lived through it.

[Awsi Dooger]

22. MMA is a lesser sport

I'd literally thrill to bet against every one of those stiffs if there were actual matchups and odds. You guys rave about Sherk. What a farce! I've seen the little stiff once or twice. He's a 5-6 guy with short arms. Became a champion when he was 33 years old. Is that really the guy you're staking the mantle of the sport on? Ha. Best of luck.

MMA attracts inferior athletes and will continue to. It's a garbage sport that people want to pretend will turn into something mainstream. Meanwhile, I already pointed out in the boxing thread that no one bets on it here in Las Vegas. One place tried to book it and they get almost zero action.

It's a great sport for people desperate to relate to smaller lesser athletes tackling one another, and somehow believing they represent something significant, as opposed to the equivalent of single A baseball, if not much lower than that.

[Wetzelbill]

24. it's not that he is the mantle of the sport

It's just that he is an actual fighter, Mayweather is just a boxer. It's not that Mayweather is the better athlete, it's just that Sherk is the better and more well-rounded fighter. Not to mention bigger and stronger. Guys like Mayweather would be easy to take down. I bet I could take the guy down almost at will. Imagine what a guy like Sherk would do to him. Floyd is a runner and he often throws one punch at a time, off his heels. Easy pickings.

MMA has had gold medal athletes fight in it. From several different sports. Almost all MMA competitors have an extensive athletic background. College athletes, competed internationally in other sports. Many have amateur and pro boxing experience too. Boxing, if anything, has been sapped by athletes going into football, basketball and other sports. You go down to a gym, pick up a good boxer, bring him over to an MMA place and throw him in with somebody who is a well-rounded fighter, and he'd get killed. You missed this when it was an actual debate over ten years ago. The groundfighting revolution. It's pure ignorance.

Floyd Mayweather couldn't stop in and beat a world champion fighter in a fight. Not even close. Just the same as an MMA fighter couldn't step in and outbox a boxer in a boxing match. It's not that tough to understand, and it's been proven time and time again.

[TroubleMan]

26. In another thread you accused someone of having "world class ignorance," and now you are

exhibiting it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=215x48326#48537

You're bias against MMA is blinding you to the facts.

A boxer with no takedown defense will get taken to the ground and lose. It doesn't matter how good he is at boxing...he'll never get a chance to use it. Being a superior athlete is a moot point in this case. Mayweather is a much superior athlete to the people who do curling in the Olympics, but he can't jump right into a curling match and win. He'd be out of his milieu. It's the same with and an MMA match, right now Mayweather doesn't have the tools needed to defend a takedown, and he'd be facing a guy who is incredible at takedowns. He'd end up on his back and lose.

Here's where the superior athlete part comes in: If Mayweather trained wrestling and submissions for about 2 years (and a little kickboxing to defend kicks and a Thai clinch), then he could hold his own in an MMA ring with Sherk. Sherk could train his lifetime and never beat Mayweather at boxing. However, saying that any boxer with no cross-training could step into an MMA ring or octagon and win against an MMA champion is absolutely ridiculous.

Also, your superior athlete argument would have been true a few years ago, but now MMA is attracting world class athletes. Olympic wrestlers and great collegiate wrestlers are now entering in MMA, and have been for some time. MMA is now stealing athletes from the NFL, boxing, kickboxing, and other major sports...not a lot, but there are some trickling in. The money is now there, the rules are now there, and now the talent is starting to flow in.

Also, the trash sport comments are almost too funny....I can't believe a true sports fan (and a DUer) would utter such things....I hope you were being sarcastic. If you weren't joking, then you sure know how to lower the discussion down to it's lowest level. It's not as bad as saying Serena Williams looks like a buffalo (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=215&topic_id=44870&mesg_id=44870), but it's still pretty low. I think you're just clinging on to the past a little too hard. Every post with you is centered around how the betting action in Vegas is. That is not a good indication anymore of how popular a sport is. Most people do their betting on-line today anyway. 10-20 years ago that argument would hold water, but right now we're in a bush economy...that means you're average joe is broke. It happened when the first bush took office, and now we've had six years of this crap. People don't have expendable income to bet anymore. Also, with the internet, betting is more decentralized. Besides MMA is very scary to bet on. Underdogs win a lot, because there are so many ways to win a fight (and lose it). That's one of the reasons it's very exciting.

MMA doesn't have the storied tradition and history of boxing. However, to call it a trash sport is unfounded. Is it a relatively young sport...yes. It took awhile for MMA to establish a good set of rules and become more than just a street fight and grow into a sport. It took awhile for it to get organized properly. However, it's much more than a fad or garbage sport. It's here and it's here to stay. It's not taking boxing's place....that strawman argument is bullshit, too. They're both great combat sports, and no amount of whining from boxing-only or MMA-only advocates is going to change that. I know that some (like you) feel threatened by an emergence of popular new combat sport, and you're clinging to your old ways like an old lady clinging to her purse, walking through a bad neighborhood.

You're lashing out for no reason at a phantom threat. Please stop being so biased that you can't make coherent arguments based on fact, instead of emotion. I love boxing as much as you do, but I'm also a huge MMA fan. You don't have to like MMA (it's not for everybody), but you should respect it. If you don't, then you've already lost the argument, because you can't make an argument against it if you know very little about it (which is the definition of ignorance).

[trumad]

27. To be honest with you

I'd rather see a great boxing match than a great MMA match. But thta's my preference and if yours is MMA, great.

[Wetzelbill]

28. for me, either

it doesn't matter. I love both. I love all combat sports. Individually, if a person can appreciate each one on its own, they are all great.