Theist / Atheist views of human nature

[bryant69]

Just curious about this issue.

Bryant

[Jed Dilligan]

1. Purely neutral?

Why not ditch the two junk categories and add the tabula rasa?

[cyborg_jim]

2. Neutral Atheist

Unless you purposely left it out to force a decision one way or the other,

[bryant69]

3. Junk categories?

I'm sorry I can't accomedate the whole range of opinions on religion with only ten poll questions. Inevitably some people aren't going to fit neatly into those categories.

You just have to do the best you can.

Bryant

[Jed Dilligan]

6. You think it's more important to include

"I like to vote!" and "Keep digging!" than an obvious logical and historically well-supported philosophical position?

Then I guess, keep digging.

[bryant69]

7. I see your point there. Nuetral?

[Jed Dilligan]

9. Sorry, wrong neutral!

I meant the absolutely neutral view of human nature. The idea that we are born neither good nor evil in any way, but our experiences make us what we are.

[bryant69]

10. OK.

I'll go fix it again. Edited to add - Can't fix it unfortunately someone voted in one of the categories. Oh well.

[cyborg_jim]

11. Ugh

I did even though it wasn't what I wanted.

Cock-up all around.

[Finder]

4. I chose somewhat positive...

but do not see human nature in terms of positive or negative--it is simply just human nature.

As I am sure you know, I am a relativist. I also see human nature as somewhat predictable in most circumstances.

[Finder]

5. Are you going to share yours as well? n/t

[bryant69]

8. I think most humans are assholes - almost 100%- including myself

My religion teaches salvation which means that someday we might not be assholes. In the short term I'm not hopeful.

[Finder]

12. Ethics over salvation any day for me....n/t

[bryant69]

13. Nice. I presume that you never fail to live up to your standards?

Bryant

[Finder]

14. Well I try to set realistic standards...

and they really aren't any different than the ones I set when I was a believer.

[bryant69]

15. Is there a difference between realistic standards and low standards?

[Finder]

18. That would be in the eye of the beholder...

in most cases.(again, I am a relativist)

I like to think my standards are higher than those around me(IRL) but that could be ego.lol

[Finder]

21. What do you think of animal nature...are all animals assholes?

Yes, this may be a trap.lol

[bryant69]

22. Human nature is different from animal nature

Animals can't be assholes - some have personalities and might be jerks (witness Stampy) but to reach the depths of assholery, you need a bit more.

Bryant

[greyl]

37. That may be the most destructive aspect of salvationist religion.

The idea that God botched the job when creating humans, or that humans were purposefully created in a divinely flawed state, really disgusts me. What is it based on? Not evidence from the real world, just some stuff some assholes wrote, I guess.

How would you persuade this woman that she needed to be saved because there's something divinely wrong with her and the members of her tribe who have lived sustainably in relative peace living a lifestyle that has been time tested and evolved for a thousand generations?

[Random_Australian]

46. Really? I have a question - perhaps it will sound a little arcane but no matter -

Do you think the people of the ancient aboriginal bundjalung (spelling!) tribes acted like assholes?

A little background:

The tribes were 40,000 years old - the oldest unbroken culture of all time. (and now most of the dialects are extinct)

They were pretty much co-operative hunter/gatherers and yearly held a large feast.

So, (and I'm not judging you or anything), do you think they would have acted in an assholish way?

[cosmik debris]

16. Ambiguous Wording

Are you asking whether human nature exists? Are you asking whether human nature is good or bad?

Regarding the first question, It exists to the extent that you define human traits as nature rather than nurture. You'll have to distinguish which traits are which.

Regarding the second question, good and bad are moving targets. I can't make a value judgment with uncertain values. By whose yardstick do I measure good and bad?

[bryant69]

17. Well it's assumed that you would judge based on your own yardstick

Polls measure what people think the truth us, not what the truth actually is.

I can see that you don't much like polls - and I obviously do, so I don't know that we are going to come together on this one. But all polls are generalities because they are multiple choice - and the answer to most poll questions is really an essay.

Bryant

[cosmik debris]

19. Yes, Absolutely!

Guessing from your clarification, your question seems to ask:

"Do unspecified traits meet indefinite standards?"

And my answer is Yes, Absolutely!

[bryant69]

20. So you really aren't able to understand the phrase

Human Nature? That's baffling to you?

Do you think most humans are pieces of shit or noble wonderful souls? That's the question - and presumably you know that's what I'm trying to ask. I guess you wouldn't use the word souls, but I mean it in a poetic sense, not religious sense.

Bryant

[cosmik debris]

23. I didn't begin the Nature vs. Nurture Debate

For at least a few hundred years people have debated what traits are human nature and which are results of environmental factors. If you know of a conclusion to that debate please let me in on the final word.

[Finder]

24. I love debating that subject...

and have to say my views have changed back and forth throughout the years.

Twin studies and primate studies as well as recent neurological studies have been interesting and essential to the debate.

[cosmik debris]

25. My best guess is that

We are the result of a competition between nature and nurture rather than the result of a single cause.

[Finder]

26. I agree with that guess.n/t

[bryant69]

28. I would agree with that

We are born shitty and then more shittiness rubs off onto us as we interact with other shitty people.

Bryant

[Finder]

29. You sound like a self-loathing human.lol n/t

[bryant69]

30. I don't restict my loathing to myself.

[Finder]

32. Sounds like you have had a rough time...

I truly hope you find peace.

[cosmik debris]

31. But that's not what I said.

And it certainly is not what I meant. I said that we are the result of competing factors.

Take attachment disorders as an example. An infant who fails to get nurtured at a vulnerable time may never form attachments through out his entire life. But it is possible that later in life, nurture could overcome the effects of nature and allow this person to form deep attachments. The competition is ongoing. And it involves two neutral forces. Nature can't be all bad if it teaches infants to suckle. Nor can nurture be all good if it produces spoiled self-centered brats.

In short, Human nature is different in all of us.

[bryant69]

33. So it's just a coincidence that most people end up as assholes?

Or what?

[Finder]

34. Define "assholes"...

I am really curious to know what you mean by that.

[bryant69]

35. You are unfamaliar with the term asshole?

That's interesting - have you led a sheltered life?

[Finder]

38. I am familiar with it but wanted to know your definition...

since you seem to think just about everyone is an asshole.

[bryant69]

40. Pretty much what you would think - wait let me check Dictionary.com

Here's some good definitions --> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Asshole

a stupid, mean, or contemptible person.

or

A thoroughly contemptible, detestable person.

Those work for me.

Bryant

[cosmik debris]

36. Nobody mentioned coincidence.

Except you. If that is your view, that's okay with me.

But what I said is that we are the result of competing forces and that the outcome is variable. You seem to have concluded that the outcome is consistent and that it is bad. So is that human nature or just your nature?

[bryant69]

39. Ah - I'm just projecting my asshole nature on other people?

People really are lovely and kind, gentle and wonderful, but all i see is assholes because i'm such an enormous asshole that my assholery distorts my vision? I have to concede the possiblity.

Bryant

[cosmik debris]

41. That's for you to decide.

Just remember that your observation may not be universal truth.

[bryant69]

42. I am pretty sure that some people really are assholes though

My distorted vision aside.

Bryant

[Evoman]

44. Do you think that perhaps your negative views are a bit distorted?

I mean...I'm sure you think plenty of the people on this board are assholes, often without cause. After our little chat yesterday, I felt like you were taking offense at something that I didn't mean to be offensive AT ALL. Maybe if you didn't automatically believe I was an asshole, you wouldn't take such instant offense at my words.

Lol...not that I'm not an asshole or anything. I'm a complete asshole :P

[bryant69]

47. I don't believe that you are an asshole

I don't see how you missed that your comment on Crazy people could be taken in a way you apprently didn't intend, but i think you are genuine as far as it all goes.

Bryant

[Zhade]

52. I feel very sad for you, that you think all of humanity sucks so bad.

You seem to have a humans-are-not-so-bad-shaped hole in your heart.

(Kidding on that last. But I do find it sad that your faith causes you to feel all humanity is fundamentally bad.)

[bloom]

49. While it's clear that

"An infant who fails to get nurtured at a vulnerable time may never form attachments through out his entire life" - when people don't form attachments - it's not necessarily because they weren't nurtured. Children with autism, for example, often don't form attachments the same way that other people do. While it was thought at one time that autism was related to environmental factors such as being nurtured or not - now people look for environmental factors such as toxins and certain genetic reactions to the environment - involving immune functions and other things (which might be called nature).

So the thing is - where nature starts and stops and where nurture starts and stops are not clear. And people don't always know which is which.

Similar problems could be going on with other things - like diet and environment. There was the prison study that showed that inmates who were given Omega-3s (Fish oil) were significantly less violent/prone to acting out. So there could be all sorts of people who given the right diet would have a perfectly nice "human nature" - but if they had deficiencies would be assholes.

It could be a cyclical problem for people in poverty. Less money for good food - bad diet choices leading to bad behavior leading to more poverty and worse diet - leading to worse behavior, etc.

At any rate - even with the best diets and best environments - people can learn to be assholes, anyway. Learn to feel entitled, etc.

[Zhade]

51. It's funny - I don't even think YOU'RE shitty...

...even though you think shitty things about all humans, including me, like "we're born shitty".

I agree with the post above - the idea that humans are born 'bad' (or 'shitty') is both reprehensible and the single most destructive (as well as flat-out manipulative) part of so-called salvationist religions.

I'll pass on that nonsense. But feel free to be happy believing humanity sucks. If you can.

[kiahzero]

53. Agreed

However, I do wonder if the life-disaffirming nature of Christianity isn't in fact worse than the idea that people are born bad.

[Odin2005]

27. Neutral.

Human nature isn't inhierently good or evil, it is what is, a product of millions of years of evolution. That nature can be channeled towards good or bad ends but it hase no moral value on it's own.

[Evoman]

43. I don't think humans are either good or bad by nature.

And there are plenty of people that are not assholes. I like to think that I'm a good judge of character...and I've found plenty of people that are not contemptible. Even the assholes aren't assholes TO EVERYONE.

I think that, oddly enough, there are traits that we define as "evil" or "bad" that may come from our evolutionary past...for example, fear, greed, anger and territorial behaviour. And whereas living in the natural world would have made these traits useful or even necesary, they may have a detrimental effect on us now.

Interestingly, I think that on the whole, people are becoming "better" at this new lifestyle, even evolving to some degree. If you compare our societies now....with our altruistic behaviour, and even our kindnesses and concerns for animals and weaker humans, to the humans of the recent past (who would have commmitted genocide on other people, and animals, without a second thought). How many people, for example, have a lot of experience with homicide these days? Compare it to someone living in the middle ages, or even during the 1600 and 1700's

Give it some time...if some big war doesn't kill us off, maybe we have a better shot at adapting into something a little better.

Question for the OP...what has happened in your life that makes you think that everybody is an asshole?

On edit: Unfortunately, my analysis is heavily influenced or biased towards Western civilization. Things are quite a bit different when looking at other societies....

[Random_Australian]

45. Atheist - other:

I can see many things in human nature. Bieng a very rational person, I tend to work out what these attitudes and actions contribute to how society is, but I don't think in terms of positive and negative - in fact, I don't think I could pit one attribute against another, mostly due to the fact that the presence of one changes the other.

Two notes:
1) I tend to think in terms of thinking patterns, which then manifest to emotions and actions, rather than emotions and attitudes themselves.
2) Believing in gene-environment interaction means that I don't really think in terms of some unchangeable "nature" in terms of our emotions and behaviour.

Or to make myself a little clearer about the whole thing, to me "human nature" is something that exists as many probability curves, then these interact with the environment, and then you get most of the emotional responses that lead to the adult behaviours, and it is only the these adult attitudes and behaviours which are moral or immoral (ie. positive or negative), so talking about nature as positive or negative makes little sense to me.

:)

[charles22]

48. Atheist. No "view" of human nature.

Never really enters into my mind. Why ask?

[bloom]

50. I think that our culture

is encouraging a lot of selfishness.

This could be interpreted as people being assholes.

Like my post yesterday about people considering the effect of the American Lifestyle (which includes most of us) on the rest of the world. (Some people might think that I was an asshole for suggesting anyone think about it.)

I think that most people want community and friendships, etc. Our culture encourages competitiveness and self-indulgence. There is a lot of cynicism about each other.

It can seem that religion wants to be an antidote to that - on the one hand. But it ends up defining good people as those within the group and people outside the group as being assholes. Some atheists do the same in reverse. I think that the Unitarians try to find common ground with everybody - and to me they can seem less cynical than other groups. The trouble is - anytime a group thinks that they are better - then everyone else can start to seem like assholes. That's how I see it anyway.

Some people are proud to be assholes. I suppose they have their reasons.