Martin Amis with Bill Moyers on Islamism

[greyl]

Transcript from Bill Moyers on Faith & Reason. The Atwood segment is worthy of a thread, too. I'm posting this as companion to the wayward Harris thread.

...
BILL MOYERS: Islamist. Help us to understand the distinction you make between Islam and Islamism.

MARTIN AMIS: Well, Islam is the great religion that has been the donor of countless benefits to mankind, that led the world in civilization throughout the Middle Ages, gave us algebra and all kinds of intellectual breakthroughs of all kinds, plus an example of tolerance that nowhere else in the world could offer at that time. A level of tolerance and respect for justice. That is Islam.

Islamism started after the First World War when the last empire was lost, the Ottoman sided with Germany in First World War. And then, you know, if you can stand way back from it all. You can imagine Islam very much reduced. It's coming towards modernity. And instead of advancing down that road, it turned round and the great leap backwards began. That's Islamism. But when Islamism got going instead of saying, "Okay, to come into modernity, we need to put slightly less emphasis on Islam." And the great leap backwards said, "No, we would need total emphasis on Islam."

BILL MOYERS: Fundamentalism?

MARTIN AMIS: Yeah.

BILL MOYERS: That's what it is.

MARTIN AMIS: Radical fundamentalism, Islamism. That's what it means.

BILL MOYERS: And you say it's a modern phenomenon?

MARTIN AMIS: Yes. Islamism should be thought of as a wave. And it's the latest wave. And it has made stupendous gains over the last five years and ten, 15 years. And this is its central twist is the reward of suicide bombing. The other great theme is when Islam was expanding, and it had an absolutely fantastic 500 years of nation after nation coming under Islam. And they could always point to that. And it has been called the argument for manifest success, where you have God's blessing because look at this extraordinary victory story that you're living through.

So if what you believe in is the argument for manifest success, you're suddenly confronted by the argument for manifest failure. "And then what? Why has God apparently favored the infidels?" And this is a conundrum wrapped in an enigma for the Islamic soul.
link

[Boojatta]

1. Two questions

Well, Islam is the great religion that has been the donor of countless benefits to mankind, that led the world in civilization throughout the Middle Ages, gave us algebra and all kinds of intellectual breakthroughs of all kinds...

Did abstaining from beans give us the Pythagorean theorem?

The other great theme is when Islam was expanding, and it had an absolutely fantastic 500 years of nation after nation coming under Islam. And they could always point to that. And it has been called the argument for manifest success, where you have God's blessing because look at this extraordinary victory story that you're living through.

If atheism expanded for 500 years, then would we be able to conclude that atheism has God's blessing?

[greyl]

2. I don't think Amis is supporting "manifest success".

He's just identifying that argument.

"Did abstaining from beans give us the Pythagorean theorem?"

:) I was going to make a joke about an abacus made of surplus beans, but this is more interesting:

518 BCE: Pythagoras, a Greek educated by mystics in Egypt and Babylon, founds community of men and women calling themselves mathematikoi, in southern Italy. They believe that reality is in essence mathematical. Pythagoras noted that vibrating lyre strings with harmonious notes have lengths that are proportional by a whole number. The Pythagorean theorem proves by reasoning what the Babylonians figured out by measurement 1000 years earlier.
http://www.superstringtheory.com/history/history1.html

The Mathematical Legacy of Islam | Keith Devlin

Today, mention of the word Islam conjurs up images of fanatical terrorists flying jet airplanes full of people into buildings full of even more people, all in the name, they say, of their god. In an equally sad vein, the word Baghdad brings to mind the unscrupulous and decidedly evil dictator Saddam Hussein. Both images are as unrepresentative as they are understandable, a sad reflection on the ease with which a handful of crazed fanatics, lacking the ability or the wit to bring about change by peaceful means, can hijack not just a plane or a country but an entire cultural heritage and its associated religion. For those of us in mathematics, and by extension all scientists and engineers, the sadness is even greater. For the culture that these fanatics claim to represent when they set about trying to destroy the modern world of science and technology was in fact the cradle in which that tradition was nurtured. As mathematicians, we are all children of Islam.
...more

[kwassa]

4. The Al Gebra movement!

At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.

At a morning press conference, Attorney general Alberto Gonzalez said he
believes the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. He is
being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction.

[greyl]

3. Amis says atheism is a religion? kick ;) nt