Apparently, the IRS is going after a liberal church...

[jhrobbins]

in the LA suburbs for ostensibly preaching against the Iraqi war and -this is the reason they profer- for recommending a candidate over another, i.e., Kerry over Bush. I don't know what else to say other than giving a link. I don't think writing to the IRS would do any good and it might get you on a list too.

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2006/09/20/2

[davidinalameda]

1. but I'm sure some on here have no problem with that

all churches are the same

blah blah blah

[trotsky]

2. What I have a problem with

is that the IRS won't go after all the churches that endorsed Bush from the pulpit.

The law should be applied equally.

[davidinalameda]

3. you're right

it should be applied equally but guess what, it's not

right now, they're going after a liberal church

where's your outrage about that or don't you care because it's just another church

[trotsky]

4. In principle, I don't have a problem with the IRS enforcing the law.

I wish they'd do it equally and fairly, but obviously that's not going to happen so long as Chimpy's in charge.

I'm sorry that I have not met your requirements for displaying adequate "outrage" over yet another typical Bush abuse of power. But if you really feel the need to make me the target of your anger, go right ahead.

[davidinalameda]

5. that's okay

I'm sure I can spend my time in other ways

maybe praying for the souls of atheists

[trotsky]

6. That's it, let it all out.

I'm here to be your substitute whipping boy for all the right-wing Christians who are REALLY your enemy. You just let loose with those little passive-aggressive jabs and you'll be right as rain soon. We atheists are here to help!

[davidinalameda]

10. gee

can't take a joke can you

and there have been plenty of atheists on here who have shown themselves to be enemies of people of faith

we're no better than kids who believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus

all churches should be taxed out of existance

I really enjoy the open-mindedness of some atheists

[Evoman]

11. gee

And there have been plenty of theists on here who have shown themselves to be enemies of people with no faith.

we're godless

we have no morals

all atheists should be purged from the democratic party.

I really enjoy the open-mindedness of some theists.

[trotsky]

14. "I really enjoy the open-mindedness of some atheists"

So is that why you decide to take out your anger on me, when I've never said either of those things?

Isn't that what you're angry at atheists for - assuming that a small group (i.e., fundie-right Christians) is representative of the whole?

Is it OK when you do it?

[JerseygirlCT]

9. The thing is that the law wasn't broken here

No candidate was endorsed or opposed.

Here's the sermon if you like -- read it for yourself and see.

http://www.allsaints-pas.org/pdf/(10-31-04)%20If%20Jesus%20Debated.pdf

[trotsky]

12. I read it for myself, and I see why it's suspect.

(Jesus supposedly speaking here) "...President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the
human consequences of the war in Iraq. More than 1,100 U.S. soldiers dead, 8,000
wounded—some disabled for life, and now the latest figures say 100,000 Iraqi fighters,
women, and children are dead. Oh, the cost of yo ur war."

...

Jesus turns to President Bush again with deep sadness. “Is what I hear really true?
Do you really mean that you want to end a decade-old ban on developing nuclear battlefield
weapons, as well as endorsing the creation of a nuclear “bunker-blaster” bomb? Are you
really going to resume nuclear testing? That is sheer insanity.”

...

If Jesus entered this debate, I think these words might come from his lips: “Shame on
all those conservative politicians in the nation’s Congress and in State Legislatures who have
for years so proudly proclaimed their love for children when they were only fetuses—but
ignored their needs after they were born.”

...

All of this needs to be part of our thinking on November 2nd. Conservative politicians
with the blessing of the Religious Right have strongly advocated the dismantling of social
programs that provide a decent life for children once they enter this world. The ultimate test
of a society is the kind of world it creates for its children. And what we have allowed to
happen to children in America is a moral scandal and breaks the heart of God. No matter
what rhetoric is used, any public policy that makes a child’s life more miserable is an
abomination before God.

Hey, I personally have no problem with the sermon and think it's spot on. But I don't think the IRS checking into it is totally without merit - I just wish they'd do the same with the thousands of conservative churches that go WAY beyond this in their endorsement of Republicans.

[JerseygirlCT]

15. That's the heart of it

This type of speech -- on issues, but not outright endorsing a candidate, has been seen as ok. How many pulpits were used in 2004 to send the troops out for Bush? But one liberal sermon about the true calling of Christians and the IRS is on them like white on rice.

[trotsky]

23. Yes, I share your frustration.

I really do wish the IRS would crack down on ALL that crap, on both sides. But just because they aren't right now, doesn't make breaking the law OK when we do it.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. I'm not at all sure that the law is clear here

Where IS the line drawn? Naming names? Talking about votes?

It's hard to say. But it's not hard to say that it sure seems All Saints is being unfairly targeted here, particularly in the face of the huge and overt efforts to co-opt conservative churches for GOP use.

IME, most of the more liberal churches are extremely careful about these things. But if fighting for social justice becomes unacceptable, well, that's surely yet another terrible sign of these terrible times.

[Random_Australian]

13. Wow- what a black-and-white worldview.

If someone does not display above a certain amount of what you deem to be outrage on this message board, they are anti-religious.

Well, there was the highly inflammatory remarks made to the effect of 'The law should be applied equally' - I am shocked that I heard that here on DU. Wait a second, no I'm not. It is what I would damn well expect and hope for.

[beam me up scottie]

16. It's okay, RA, he IS praying for our souls, after all.

I had no idea we were such a threat to christians.

We should find an equally offensive way to validate our fear of God.

Oops, my bad.

I just checked, seems like it's not God we're afraid of, it's his ignorant and paranoid children who think liberal atheists who support the Constitutional separation of church and state are the "enemies of people of faith".


You'd think that liberal christians would pray for the souls of those of their brethren who persecute homosexuals, start wars based on lies, imprison and torture brown people, vote for tax breaks for the rich while ignoring the fact that millions go to bed hungry, use their political power to silence dissenters while making laws dictating how we live, have sex and die, instead.

That's what I'd be doing if I believed in prayer.



But what do I know? :shrug:

I'm just a godless and immoral whackjob secularist.

[Random_Australian]

17. You know, saying the words "I'm praying for your souls" just makes

everything you do all better. After all, only true Christians pray for the souls of others, and true Christians never do anything that is not amazingly wonderful, or put sugar in their porridge.

It reminds me of this story:

********************************

The end.
Once there was a person with a beard.
And asteroid smacked into a star 150,000 light years away from them, doing pretty much nothing because stars are so massive compared to asteroids.

Then the ace of spades decided that spaghetti, as a verb, impelled it to say "I'm sorry, it's my nature" and then it ate some cow.

Of the evil step-mother.
When time was.

********************************

I bet it all makes sense now.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Eureka!

Sometimes a mortician sweeps the floor, but a stovepipe related to a fairy always laughs and drinks all night with a grizzly bear toward a buzzard! When you see some power drill behind a dolphin, it means that a ravishing garbage can reads a magazine. A cowboy recognizes the apartment building living with the umbrella, and a squid slyly gives secret financial aid to a ski lodge. Any turn signal can know a cosmopolitan traffic light, but it takes a real senator to organize a carpet tack. The fruit cake near a cocker spaniel leaves, and the ravishing pig pen dies; however, the deficit toward the defendant feverishly plans an escape from the cough syrup near a movie theater a corporation of the fairy.
Sometimes a mortician sweeps the floor, but a stovepipe related to a fairy always laughs and drinks all night with a grizzly bear toward a buzzard! When you see some power drill behind a dolphin, it means that a ravishing garbage can reads a magazine. A cowboy recognizes the apartment building living with the umbrella, and a squid slyly gives secret financial aid to a ski lodge. Any turn signal can know a cosmopolitan traffic light, but it takes a real senator to organize a carpet tack. The fruit cake near a cocker spaniel leaves, and the ravishing pig pen dies; however, the deficit toward the defendant feverishly plans an escape from the cough syrup near a movie theater a corporation of the fairy.

It makes perfect sense! I understand everything now that http://www.mundoblaineo.com/sentence.html">God explained it!

[Random_Australian]

19. Now you are getting it! Now, feast your soul on this logic!

1) Even the full-out satanic death cults like wicca and paganism know that 'white magic is better'

2) I was not going to say that white people are better. Nu - uh. I just carefully (and with extreme subtlety) made you think that wicca was bad. Wasn't that clever?

Just gotta remember, for every fool like the one above there is a TG out there somewhere, whose arguments deserve respect. :)

[beam me up scottie]

20. Ack!

I just realized I was being redundant when I used the words "godless and immoral" to describe my whack jobism.

[Random_Australian]

21. G'night Bmus, sleep well!

Edit: I'm the one going to sleep... whoops!

[beam me up scottie]

22. LOL!

Nope, your psychic powers are fully functional, I am ready to go to sleep now too.

I stayed up most of the night since my NOAA emergency radio was shrieking alarms every half hour or so. The tornado watch is almost up so I'm ready for some z's.

Sleep well, my friend.:)

[Finder]

24. I am one of those...

that believes all churches should be taxed. They are businesses.

[jhrobbins]

7. Yikes! I had no idea that this post would add fuel.....

to some apparent old fire. Sorry, I guess. And for the record, I am a devout Christian, but I am not religious. My Christianity is one of my own making and the good part is that I don't disagree with one part of the dogma of my church - it's a great thing.

[trotsky]

8. You can't be responsible for someone putting in a snarky dig...

at atheists. Don't worry about it.