Belief vs. Certainty

[kwassa]

This is a letter in this week's Newsweek, in regards to the article about atheism last week. I thought the author had a good point. Most of the other letters actually stated points often heard in this forum, but I hadn't heard this point stated this way.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14868472/site/newsweek/page/3/

Both the faithful and the atheists need to keep in mind the difference between belief and certainty. It is possible to believe there is a God or that no deity exists, but this is not the same as being certain. There is much about the origin and scope of the universe that we may never know for certain. I have no problem with any religion as long as it remains about belief rather than absolute certainty. Belief is compatible with respect and tolerance for other beliefs. Certainty is an arrogance that leads to intolerance, disrespect and, all too often, terror and war.

Ray Sachs
West Chester, Pa.

[imfreaky]

1. I guess that's why it's called faith.

I assume an atheist also has "faith" there is no God. Just can't be certain. It goes both ways. Interesting point. Having been on both sides of this issue it is well to remember the point of the article. "Belief is compatible with respect and tolerance for other beliefs. Certainty is an arrogance that leads to intolerance, disrespect and, all too often, terror and war."

[Finder]

4. You assume wrong...

as far as most atheists go. The lack of belief or lack of faith in a deity is based on reason.

Not many atheists assert with certainty that no deity exists although many will assert certain deities don't.

A theist/believer who is not certain is usually labeled an agnostic.

[imfreaky]

5. I assume you back you're wrong on your atheist point.

"as far as most atheists go. The lack of belief or lack of faith in a deity is based on reason."
I do agree with this. Most atheist have, through reasoning, concluded there is no God.



"Not many atheists assert with certainty that no deity exists although many will assert certain deities don't."
Maybe I don't understand your point. But by definition, atheist don't believe in any God(s)


"A theist/believer who is not certain is usually labeled an agnostic
Sketchy definition. It makes more sense that: A "believer" believes. OR has FAITH. An agnostic, a different word, means they believe in something, just not quite sure.

Sorry, if it's a minute point. But many times the difference is in the details. And language is pretty important stuff.

imfreaky

[Finder]

6. Which point? n/t

[imfreaky]

10. this one

and listen, this is just nitpickin. :)

"Not many atheists assert with certainty that no deity exists although many will assert certain deities don't"

As a former atheist, and one who's known quite a few. Atheist believe in NO GOD(S). not just certain one(s) Also, they must "feel" certain, because if they didn't they would then be called "agnostic". Actually, I'm debating myself on that last sentence. Agnostic usually implies unsure of God.

I'll just move along now,.......

[Finder]

11. I am an atheist...

how does one become a former atheist?

I won't nitpick(too much) but atheists lack belief rather than believe in a negative.

It becomes a semantics battle.lol

[imfreaky]

12. I'm a believer now.

don't worry I won't preach. You are right on semantics. "Belief in a negative" confuses me. As an atheist I didn't believe in any type of God(s). pretty much we came here as an accident, or randomnly, and when I die, i turn to dust. No heavean no hell, no nothing as far as superior beings or before lifes or after life. I was certainly into "energy" and "connectedness" and concepts similar. But at this point, for reasons to complicated to state here, I've become a believer. Not a fanatic, but a believer.

[Finder]

13. Did you join a particular religion?n/t

[imfreaky]

14. I consider myself a Christian

which blows my mind still. Because I never thought I would have become one after becoming an atheist. I don't attend church but I do consider myself to have an amazing amount of faith, especially considering my background. I don't have the capacity to put into words exactly how I ended up this way. (if you're curious I'll try) But I can assure you it was through the same type of reason/deduction as when I become an atheist. As in I considered myself a believer before, but that was more just for convenience. Ultimately I just want to know the truth. Whatever it is.

[Finder]

15. I think that is true of most of us...wanting the truth..

You should post in the "talk about your beliefs" thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x79553

[imfreaky]

16. well, looky there. Didn't know that existed.

Perhaps I'll give it a whirl. Although, and I haven't looked yet. From alot of these other posters I see, I might get beat up. Christians aren't real popular around here. I'm considering starting a thread about that. But I can see me getting kicked out of here. Perhaps I'd be better worshipping some type of beatle from a far off land. :) I respect life and try to follow the golden rule.

[Finder]

17. There are lots of Christians and nobody gets beaten up...

or kicked out unless they attack or insult another poster. Of course this forum is not for the thin-skinned. If you don't like to feel your beliefs are subject to debate or discussion there are DU groups for each belief system for those who are looking for fellowship of that type.

[imfreaky]

18. thanks for your comments

i'm always happy to debate my beliefs. It helps to confirm. and Hey If i'm wrong, so be it. But,... and this will be my last question to you. well, maybe anyway.... do you really not see an anti christian thing here. I realize it's aimed primarily at the fundi's. I've got issues with them as well. But it seems you would get more respect if you, like I said earlier, worshipped the African Dung Beatle. Peace

[Finder]

20. I don't think it is anti-christian...

but like I said, all worldviews are discussed and debated and some may feel offended at times. You will see that many times the atheists come to the defense of christians and christians will come to the defense of atheists.

[Random_Australian]

25. Most of the responders to that thread where Christian. None of them got

beat up.

Also, I have gone to considerable lengths to keep it a calm thread where people talk about their beliefs in peace, so don't start a flamewar by saying Christians are persecuted. There is a thread for that - scroll down the front page until you find "Sorry, but I must address this" by Dragonbreathpd (Or something).

Finally, there is not Christian persecution here. No more than there is atheist persecution. If I recall correctly, atheists have been called mentally ill and the post not been deleted, so if you think all this angst is one-sided, you have another think coming.

But aside from that, peace. :)

[Random_Australian]

24. Atheists, by definition, lack belief in Gods.

Most of us don't assert there are no Gods though. (Don't have the evidence)

[Zhade]

27. I'm an atheist. You're wrong.

I, for one, am an agnostic atheist, in that I don't have knowledge of gods' existence (since there is no evidence they exist) and thus don't believe in any.

That's actually opposite the belief that there are, for certain, no gods.

Next time, try not to assume. 'Strong' (assertive that gods in fact don't exist) atheists differ greatly from 'weak' atheists who DO NOT assert that they believe no gods exist.

[soothsayer]

2. metaphysical certainty, to trot out a favorite of ex Jesuit McLaughlin

Love that phrase (it means absolute certainty)

[sui generis]

3. There are two kinds of faith.

Faith that knows it's faith, that questions itself and therefore tolerates questioning and is by definition tolerant of other similar forms of "faith".

And faith that believes that it is knowledge. The latter kind of faith has no room in it for second opinions, or even for the existence of opposing ideas; by definition it must be intolerant to survive in that form.

[trotsky]

7. I, too, have no problem with religion...

as long as it remains about belief rather than absolute certainty.

But it's true that in some things, we can be certain. E.g., we're certain that micro-organisms cause spoilage. That evolution has occurred. That the world doesn't rest on the back of a giant tortoise.

Is it allowed to be certain that Zeus doesn't exist? Or is one an intolerant inflexible fundamentalist a-Zeusist if one says so?

[imfreaky]

8. what is this, world not resting on the back of a tortise

everybody knows this :)

[trotsky]

9. It's tortoises all the way down, duh!

;-)

[varkam]

19. I am an atheist and an agnostic.

I know I've hashed this out before, but it looks like it could be useful again. Atheism makes a claim regarding what one believes whereas agnosticism makes a claim regarding what one knows. Agnosticism makes no claim regarding belief (many people hold agnosticism to be the belief in some sort of higher "life force"), but simply holds that one is without knowledge.

The funny thing about knowledge is that it requires truth. You can't know something that is untrue - it is a logical impossibility. I can not know that 2+2=3. Further, the scope of things that we can know is severely limited by that harsh imposition. Do I know that my father isn't living a double life as a CIA agent? Do I know that my girlfriend really loves me? Do I know that my Chihuahua isn't secretly hoarding my socks? No, in all those cases.

Belief, on the other hand, does not require truth. People believe in untrue things all the time. Misreading something in a textbook, psychics, sin theory of disease, etc. The list goes on and on of untrue things people can believe in. Perhaps those aren't great examples, but you get the picture.

All that being said, I can state with no cognitive dissonance the following two claims:

(1) I assert that I believe there is no God or that there are no Gods.
(2) I assert that I do not know if there is no God or that there are no Gods.

That being said, the neat little pigeon hole that I would fit into is that of a strong atheist as well as an agnostic. I am not certain I am correct in assertion 1, just as I am not certain that my Chihuahua is not secretly hoarding my socks - but I think I've got pretty damn good reasons to believe the way I do.

[kwassa]

22. I believe that your Chihuahua is hoarding your socks.

[Goblinmonger]

21. That's a load

It is just another example of putting the atheist mindset in the same ballpark as the theist. The theist has to have faith that something that can't be seen, heard, or touched actually exists. It is a tough position to be in to believe that thing exists. When faced with someone who doesn't believe in any variety of that creature, the tendency is to say, "Well, they have faith, too, because we can't be certain." Not so, grasshopper. It does not take one ounce of faith to not believe in god. It takes no effort. Here, look at me: it is my prep period, I'm tired from a day of kick-ass teaching, I'm going to sit back and not believe in god--I'll be back in a minute.



Ah, I'm refreshed. And it took neither faith nor effort to not believe in a god.

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Well said! nt

[Zhade]

26. It's a good point, but it doesn't NEARLY apply to all atheists.

Instead, it only applies to strong atheists who assert there are no gods as a fact.

[beam me up scottie]

28. The "faithful and the atheists" sounds about right.

Faith = belief in thing(s) not proven to exist

Atheism = lack of belief in thing(s) not proven to exist.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. I doubt that you could find a person with more

faith than I have.

Am I certain? Absolutely not.