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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:22 AM
Original message
Pope criticised over Islam remarks

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/60F307D9-8A08-48E0-8AD6-C3731B7F66EE.htm

Pope criticised over Islam remarks

Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Kuwait, Turkey and Pakistan have criticised Pope Benedict XVI for his remarks critical of Islam and urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer.

Ali Bardakoglu, head of the state-run religious affairs directorate in Turkey, said on Thursday that Pope Benedict XVI as "full of enmity and grudge" against Islam. He opposed the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November.

Bardakoglu also demanded that the pope immediately retract and issue an apology for his remarks about Islam and his criticism of the concept of Holy War.

...

During a six-day visit to his native Germany this week, the pope hit out at Islam and its concept of jihad or holy war, citing a 14th-century Christian emperor who said that Prophet Muhammad had brought the world "evil and inhuman" things.

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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Jeez, this guy is about the worst choice they could have made.
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BlueInPhilly Donating Member (341 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Actually, his lecture was pretty compelling
This Pope is a theologian and a scholar and instead of the "feel good" papacy of JP2, he actually researched and philosophized about the fundamental differences of religion. His lecture was rivetting and very intellectual.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Catholic theology is so filled with bigotry and hatred for both
other religions and women (especially women) I wouldn't call it an intellectual experience. More like one to appeal to one's meaner more hateful side.

And don't give me any crap. I was educated in a girl's private Catholic boarding school and went to regular Catholic schools in grade school. I am not ignorant in this area.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
6.  The Catholic Church is very cult-like. Much in the same...
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 10:59 AM by AX10
way that the Fundies are. It is quite disturbing.
As with most religions, their hatred towards one another is based upon the fact that these other religions are different from their own.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Yeah, but you could try reading his actual address, instead of
the snippet that has been lifted completely out of context and spread around the world as if it were an anti-Muslim polemic. What he was doing, in a very esoteric, academic and sleep-inducing lecture, was trying to talk about compulsion and faith, and faith vs. reason, and the secularization of Europe.

That controversial quote came from some text that recorded a debate between a 13th century emperor and a highly educated Persian, with respect to their two religions. As a debater will do, the emperor said something provoking to the Persian, who then responded. What has been quoted as if it were an example of Ratzinger's bigotry was just a quote from the emperor in this debate, which Ratzinger used as a springboard to move into a general discussion of compulsion and faith and reason.

If you were raised Catholic and read any theology, surely you have read many of these dry, philosophical tomes before. That's all this was. Unfortunately, Ratzinger doesn't have the public relations skills in his whole body that Pope John Paul had in his little finger. Someone else should have read this speech and alarm bells should have gone off. Any time something can be twisted and lifted out of context, apparently it will be.

I can't stand Ratzinger, myself. I was extremely disappointed with his election. But I have to wonder about the motivations of the media people who took this and turned it into a huge controversy.
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GuillermoX71 Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. Would you also agree that
Islamic theology is also filled with bigotry and hatred for other religions and women?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Oh boy...
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Here is the actual Speech, if anyone wants to read what the Pope said:
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 11:05 AM by happyslug
http://www.zenit.org/english/

To get to the Speech you have to go to click on the cite marked:
Papal Address at University of Regensburg Date: 2006-09-12

The Pope is citing Manuel II PALAIOLOGOS (1391-1425 A.D.), Thrid to last Bzyantine Emperor.

In the seventh conversation ("diálesis" -- controversy) edited by professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that sura 2:256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion." It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under . But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning holy war.

Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels," he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...."

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.


For more on Emperor Manuel II see:
http://www.roman-emperors.org/manuel2.htm

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. As if Christianity wasn't spread by the sword
And as if pagans weren't killed by Christians for heresy.
And as if there weren't forced conversions in Christianity.
And as if there weren't Crusades and Pogroms.
And as if there weren't Catholic-Protestant holy wars.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. All Movements have used the sword one time or another
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 04:49 PM by happyslug
The latest example was the Soviet Union forcing Eastern Europe to adopt Communism after WWII. At the same time it is a very bad way to spread the word of ANY Movement, you get very weak supporters of the movement who the first chance they get will revert to old habits (Thus most scholars of any movement avoid forced conversions if possible).

As to you list, many of the cases you site are tied in with political disputes masked under the name of Religion. For example the Protestant vs Catholic Wars had more to do with who was to rule Germany, France the Britain than as to one religion or the other. Did you want to be allied with Rome and Southern Europe or did you want to be allied with the North German, Danes and Swedes? (This was the Catholic-Lutheran Split). Did you want to be allied with the poor, the new Middle Class or the old nobility? (The Catholic, Puritan, Anglican Split in England). The Puritan/Reform Church tended to be the religion adopted by the upper Middle Class during the last 500 years, while in most Catholic Countries the poor and Nobility stayed Catholic. Even Karl Marx observed that the Protestant Reformation and the wars of the Reformation had more to do with the raise of the Upper Middle Class and their fight with the old Nobility for control of their own country and other European Countries than any religious dispute.

The Russian Pogroms,, while anti-Jewish, had more to do with using the Jews as a Scape Goat for the problem of the Russian Peasant than any real hated of the Jews (Real Anti-Semites would only off with the influence of the Concept of the "Super-man" pushed by Nietzsche but even the Nazis tended to use Antisemitism as an Excuse to blame anyone but themselves for the shortcomings of Nazism).

The Crusades, had strong religion implications, but no one goes a 1000 miles for God, on the other hand if promise riches people will travel. The Peasant Crusade seems to be the only one with strong religious fever, but it was destroyed by the Seljuk Turks even before the Crusade arrived in Palestine. The "First Crusade" of the following year had more to do with the members of the Crusades obtaining land to rule than "Freeing" the Holy lands from the Turks (In fact after the Crusade moved into what is now Turkey, the leaders of the First Crusade abandoned they oath of allegiance to the Eastern Emperor and set of independent kingdoms of their own to rule for the next 150 years). The Fourth Crusade was even condemned by the Pope before it even left Venice for by then it was clear Constantinople was the real target, do to all of its wealth (it was by far the largest and richest City in the World at that time). That Crusade had nothing to do with Religion and everything to do with getting rich quick (The other Crusaded were less secular and more religious and that was the main reason they all failed, through NONE of the Crusaders converted anyone by the sword and often left Muslims worship in the ares controlled by the Crusading States).

Now Cortez did want to to use force to convert the Mexicans to be Catholics, but his Priest convinced him NOT to do so. Thus the conversion in Mexico was NOT by the Sword but by example (Through the Spanish Government did suppress the old Aztec religion given its tendency to human sacrifices). Even today in Peru you have non-Catholic natives who worship the old gods, do to the fact that the Church did NOT focally convert them to the Cross). Now some of the Conquistadors did convert by the Sword, but these tend not to stay Catholic through some such ares later converted to Catholicism on their own.

Even in the Middle ages, scholars were talk about the old gods and how they were not quite dead yet, for while the Church opposed the retention of Pagan beliefs, the church was hard press to convert everyone by force (The Church's biggest weapon on conversion during the Middle ages was ties with other larger Catholic states, thus to be close to other European States one had to be Catholic or in the case of Eastern Europe Orthodox).

In Late Roman period, forcible conversions were rare, through you did have some pagan Priests and Priestess killed by Christian Mobs, but mostly after some sort of Crisis within the Empire. Thus Christan would take over temples under Constantine, but worshiping pagan gods was NOT illegal (and would NOT be illegal till the time of Justinian 200 years later). In the early fifth century as the Roman empire declined, you had further attacks on old Temples and an occasional killing of some Pagan Priest or Priestess, through these had more to do with a cover story to loot the temple to get more money for the Imperial Treasury (After Constantine the main form of money was Gold coins, Rome had no ready source of Gold except the old temples so the Emperors seems to have encourage their Christan Followers to loot those temples, thus the better explanation for the sacking of the ancient temples by the early Christians was the late Roman Emperors were looting these temples under the excuse of Religion so the Emperors could have Gold to pay the Army and pay off some of the barbarian hordes pushing into the Empire at that time).

My point is it is RARE for religion to be the REASON for a Forced Conversion or some sort of war or Conflict, on the other hand it has been a very convenient excuse when someone wants an excuse. Do NOT confuse an excuse with a reason, such confusion will NOT permit you to understand what is going on in the world even today.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. You are missing the point completely.
The whole address is right there for you to read. I was upset with Ratzinger too, until I read the address. Now I just wish someone had done a better job vetting this for him.

I was extremely disappointed when he was elected Pope. I am not a fan, at all. But his real problem here -- in this particular instance -- is that he's lousy with public relations. But the speech itself is about faith and reason, and it barely touches on anything Muslim. His primary concern in the address has to do with the secularization of Europe.

The quote that has caused the furor was lifted from a text that records a verbal debate between an emperor in the 1300's and a highly educated Persian. The emperor says something provoking -- as people do in a debate -- claiming that there is nothing of value in the Muslim religion, etc. -- and then the Persian answers him.

The point of Ratzinger's quoting him was to talk about compulsion in religion, and to move ahead into a discussion of faith and reason. Unfortunately, he is accustomed to extremely academic, esoteric discussions and wasn't prepared for one sentence (quoting an emperor in the 1300's having a debate with someone else) to get lifted out of his lecture and get bounced around the world and get interpreted as if it were HIS opinion of the Muslim faith.

I still can't stand Ratzinger for a number of reasons, but I think the media people who lifted one sentence out of context must have had their own agenda. Anyone who reads the whole thing will understand that it's not an anti-Muslim polemic AT ALL.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. John Paul II never would have said such shit
He was a genuinely decent man, and I miss him even more now.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. How would Benedict react?
There has been no shortage of unfortunate events in the history of Catholicism and some pretty harsh things written by and about the church down through the centuries. Would Benedict feel it a fair critique of current church practices to reach back several centuries to episodes such as the Inquisition and the condemnation of Galileo? Because if that wouldn't be fair to the church as it practices today, it's not fair to Islam today for the same reason.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. He's probably been exposed to many of them.
He would probably disagree with many of them.

But saying that the Inquisition was horrible doesn't insult Christianity. Saying that medieval Christianity was obscurantist doesn't insult Christianity. One--for the last few hundred years--can say negative things about practitioners of Xianity and variant formulations of the belief without coming in for across-the-board criticism as hating Christianity, and being a Christophobic racist.

His speech was reasoned. The problem is that he dared say something bad about one form of Islam, but to true believers there is only one form. The problem is that he isn't a Muslim, but a Christian.

He's outside the tribe, and insulted the tribe. Honor and dignity must be upheld.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. I suggest you the actual text of the Pope's speech.
It's not an anti-Muslim polemic. It's more of a sleeping pill, as is much of Catholic philosophy to those of us who are not theologians or professional philosophers.

The controversial quote is from a debate between a Christian and a Persian. Ratzinger wasn't taking the side of the Christian, he was just using the quote as a springboard into a larger discussion of compulsion and religion and faith vs. reason, and his concerns about the secularization of Europe.

But leave it to the media to quote someone in a way that puts people at each other's throats.

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748
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corporatemedia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. How about starting a CRUSADE to wipe out JIHADS? n/t
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FooFootheSnoo Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. isn't that what our Christian leader has done?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. We don't have a Christian leader.
We have a narcissistic leader with delusions of grandeur and a Messianic complex.

Jimmy Carter was a Christian leader and look what happened to him.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. Pope has issued an apology over any misunderstanding of his speech.
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 08:31 PM by happyslug

Pontiff Respects Islam, Says Spokesman

VATICAN CITY, SEPT. 14, 2006 (ZENIT.org).- A Vatican spokesman says that Benedict XVI wants to "cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward other religions and cultures, obviously toward Islam too."

Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican press office, made that comment today in the wake of criticism from some Muslim circles over a discourse the Pope gave Tuesday at the University of Regensburg.

"What is at the Pope's heart," said Father Lombardi, "is a clear and radical refusal of the religious motivation of violence."

If you want to read the actual speech ("Discourse" is the word used above"). Go to Zenit News:
http://www.zenit.org/english/

Click on "Pontiff Respects Islam, Says Spokesman" 2006-9-14 to get the above quote, then go down to discourse" in the body of the news release and it will take you to the speech.

Zenit is always moving, so while I am writing this the above news release is in the middle of the page, it may be lower down by the time anyone else wants to look at the speech.
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doctor_garth Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. that's all we need!
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 08:28 PM by doctor_garth
as if the Nazis in the the White House were not enough, now we have this useless Nazi youth member throwing more gasoline in the fire.

Pope RATzinger, shut the fuck up!
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Ratzinger needs some handlers, but in this case it's the media
throwing gas on the fire. If you read his actual speech, the worst it could do to someone was put them to sleep. The controversial quote came from a debate in the 1300's between a Christian emperor and a highly educated Persian. They took turns attacking the other person's point of view and defending their own. Ratzinger was just using this quote as a springboard into a general discussion about faith and reason. He's used to the old days when no one paid attention to his philosophical discourse.

But he better learn to watch his step, because this was a disaster.

The full, boring, esoteric text is here:

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748
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