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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:13 PM
Original message
I get it now
Many times here on DU I've answered various polls with a rather cock-eyed optimist point of view. How's the economy doing as far as I am concerned? Just fine. Still making money, have health insurance and a pension. I've been amazed at how some folks relate experiences living amongst fundamentalists where they are belittled or constantly evangelized to. It's never happened to me. Basically, aside from election angst, I have been rather unscathed by this extreme pendulum swing to the right.

Until today.

To understand my epiphany, you need to understand just a bit about me. I am a lifelong Episcopalian and "the Church" has been a major cultural and spiritual influence in my life. I've always been proud of my church and the work it does. In the last seven years or so I have had to quit church activities and care for elderly parents. My mom passed away two years ago but I never quite got around to going back to church. The church I used to attend actually moved and built a new facility, and I just didn't feel a connection anymore. There are a LOT of Episcopal churches down here in the South. The planter class was usually Episcopal and that influence has carried forward. As most know, two years ago Gene Robinson, and openly gay man in a non-celebate relationship, was ordained as a Bishop in the Episcopal church in NH. And it wasn't long before the schism showed up here. All the local churches but one split, with the more conservative members (in each case this involved the priest, the assistants and the entire vestry) up and leaving. We are not talking a small group of malcontents. These groups are the majority in every parish.

Last week I went back to church. I chose a lovely parish that used to be booming. It is a beautiful facility with a historical chapel, a huge graveyard...a well-established church in the community, known for outreach and good works. Last week, the day before Labor Day, there were about 20 folks there. I wasn't surprised..around here a lot of people head to the coast on weekends. But today was the big "back to school and back to church" Sunday, and lo and behold, there were about 50 people there. In past years there would have been standing room only. Not today. No young couples. No nursery because there were no babies. Five or six Sunday School aged kids. But there WERE about three gay couples.

Just folks like me, standing to sing, sitting to listen, kneeling to pray. Older, like me, over 50. And it hit me that all those people who USED to go to church there had turned their backs on us all. TURNED THEIR BACKS. Turned and walked away. And why? Because among us stood human beings whose horrific sin (huge enough to split a church down the middle) was to LOVE each other and want to live in that love. A church is about reaching out, opening your arms to those around you. But these people have abandoned their brothers and sisters and walked away, turned their backs and walked away. I saw it so clearly that I swear I saw them as a group walking away, not turning around to even look at those they left behind. They have their own nurseries and Sunday Schools and not everyone is welcome there in their "new" churches. But the thing is, they left Christ behind as well. They say the same prayers I say, but oh my, how they interpret the words of Jesus Christ differently than I do. What a waste. What a mistake. How can they get it so WRONG? Don't they understand that in their arrogance they are everything He warned us against?

Well, I am staying with this church. I'll write a check every Sunday. I'll go to Wednesday dinners. I'll get to know these people and we will flourish because we are walking the walk and talking the talk. And those other folks...well, I hope they can look at themselves in the mirror every morning. I don't think I could.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. As the good Lord once said
The sick need the physician, not the well. Good luck!
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hashibabba Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It is sad, what goes on in a lot of churches these days.
Enjoy your church, it sounds good. Be blessed.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. I think I will enjoy this church
because the riff-raff has been culled out rather effectively.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Thanks.
It is kind of a sickness, isn't it?
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good post
Thanks for sharing what is happening. I wish your church every success. I have become convinced that hell is going to be filled with people who claim to be Christians.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. Thank you
yes, I think these folks will one day regret this stance.
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LiberalArkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you. I was Episcopalian also. I enjoyed it also.. But I
just stopped going a long time ago also. I am hesitant about finding a new parish since it seems that every church of every demonination are more into the Moses type of Christianity instead Jesus type of Christianity.

What I mean is, they prefer the old testament teachings and condemnations instead of the teaching of Jesus. I just could not stand it any more.
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believerinchrist Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Amen!
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. Maybe you will find a parish
like I did, where the hypocrites have left already!?
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. The reason I turned my back on "religion"
25 yrs ago was because of hypocricy. I hate it and it was everywhere I looked. Dont get me wrong, there are fabulous Christians in the world. But I believe these people would be fabulous PEOPLE even without religion.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
24. I can understand your point.
Now, hug your ferrets for me! Little rascals!
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. One of the best posts I've ever read here... kudos! /nt
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. Thank you.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Alas, they look at themselves just fine
because they think being exclusionary and hateful proves how righteous they are. I know the type all too well. Just don't peek behind the mask they show the world. You won't like what you'll find.

I'm sorry that church has gotten so small, probably too small to support itself. The hateful people who turned their backs on it will just have to wait it all out. Either they'll waltz back into the building and run it the way they see fit, on hate, or it will become condos for the well heeled among them.

Do get to know everyone who stayed, get to know them well. Christians who managed to get the point are treasures in life.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. Yes, you are right
and I need to look at it that way. That the folks who are still there are special indeed.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. You should send this to your local paper as a LTTE. n/t
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. I just might do that!
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Tragic prejudice abounds but your soul seems intact
I am not religious at all, but your passion illuminated the true spirit of Christianity for me. Thanks for letting me look through your eyes.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. I hope so. I'm working on it.
Thank you.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am so sorry for your congregation..
I am a "cradle" Episcopalian too. Our little parish on Long Island is whole. I expect that there are Episcopalians out there who would not care to join us because we welcome everyone. There are straight and gay couples, families with children, their parents. The church has traditionally used the image of the three-legged stool. One is Scripture, one is tradition and the third is reason.

Conflicts used to be handled in the "via media" way, that is, agree to disagree for the moment, and shelve the argument until time salves the wounds, and we can approach it in loving community.

When hearts are hardened it is difficult to find a way.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
29. I never thought this would happen
and over such a stupid issue. Stupid now to the people discriminated against, however.
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Toney Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. I get it now . .
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." I Corinthians 6:9-10 New Testament


"And Jesus answering said unto them, "They that are whole need not a physician but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to REPENTANCE." Luke 5:31-32

. . and again, "Go and sin no more."
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. This is my commandment that ye love one another that your joy may be full
I always liked that one.

Welcome to DU. :hi:
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You have more patience than I
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Why should I concern myself whether
or not they inherit the kingdom of God? I am here now with them and I will NOT turn my back on them and walk away.

There are many, many people who have different mores than I, but judge not lest I be judged.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. You know, I believe I might
has misinterpretted your scripture quoting here.

Can you elaborate?

Sorry for being dim.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. Quite frankly, I don't think it bothers these folks one bit...
to look in the mirror. One quote says it all in this case:

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

If you're convinced that homosexuals are Satan's agents in our midst, perhaps even otherwise decent people who instead have "chosen" to live a lifestyle of sin, how can it possibly bother you to turn away from them? If you believe that poor people are poor because they are lazy and/or not favored by God, why on earth should it give you even a moment's pause to think about cutting social programs and ignoring poverty?

Naw, I'm sure they sleep quite well at night, absolutely certain they are acting how God wants them to act.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I guess you are right, Trotsky
but who knew? I mean I have shared pews with these "progressive" Xtians for many years.

I can understand believing homosexuality is a sin. It hasn't been too long since our consciousness was raised about that. But I would imagine I have sat next to a whole LOT of sinning in my years in church..pedophilia, child abuse, embezzlement, cheating, and possibly even murderers. (actually, definitely murderers. A man in our church killed his wife.) And there are aspects of my life, while not quite as interesting as those, are also things I am ashamed of. But if you think your brother is sinning, should you just abandon him? If we do a moral inventory of every person in the pews, there is going to be a very tiny congregation. Where does it end? You know, of course, these are rhetorical questions.

But you know what? I wouldn't want to have the burden of this on my soul. I really, really wouldn't.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. if a person were 'perfect,' s/he would be an angel
Who was it who said Jesus came for sinners, not the perfect?

I was raised in the SoBapt church. I remember when, as part of the on-going 'Catholics just aren't real Christians' message, we were told about prostitutes going to Catholic churches in Latin America and that the Catholics thought that was just fine. We were all supposed to be just horrified.

As an adult, I think 'right on.' God/Jesus loves and accepts everyone, not just the ones who happen to be acceptable to a given society.

Jesus didn't hang out with the heads of government and the 'good people' of his day. He spent his time with the outcast, the prostitutes and the tax-collectors and ....
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FrankieBud Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. Well said friend
Edited on Sun Sep-10-06 06:41 PM by FrankieBud
I am the part time Sexton of an old Episcopal church in a small town in PA. I could write a book on what has happened here. I won't get into the details but it comes down to this in my mind. Progressives are under attack these days by American Christian fundamentalism. Which is kind of funny as Jesus was certainly one of us.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. How sad.
Will your parish survive? It is odd, I feel so invigorated as far as participating in this fellowship, if for no other reason than to prove to the ones who left that they made a big mistake.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. If it is any consolation, TG, the total number of these conservatives ...
while great in your particular diocese, are estimated at about only 10% of the Episcopal Church nationwide.

I expect a schism within the next three years. That's my prediction.

The Washington DC diocese is almost the polar opposite of yours, with many openly gay clergy.

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. Well, I'm really glad that you do "get it"
Too many people don't understand until they are the ones in the crosshairs. Its too easy to dismiss religious persecution, when your not the one being persecuted.
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