Newsweek article on Atheist.

[edhopper]

Overall a decent profile of Dawkins and Harris.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14638243/site/newsweek

But it did include passages like this condescending little nugget.
“But for all his erudition, he (Dawkins) seems not to have spent much time among ordinary Christians, who could have told him what God has meant to them.”

I sent in this response;

My question is has Adler spent much time among the ancient Greeks and Romans? Because if he has read Homer, Herodotus or Virgil, for example, he would see how much their Pantheon meant to their lives. Does that give evidence to their Gods’ existence? Or take the people of Meso-America or Ancient Egypt or even today’s believers in UFO abduction, does the impact a belief has on someone constituent proof? This seem to be Adler’s contention.
This, in fact, is precisely Dawkin’s point. Gaining meaning from a belief may be hardwired into the human brain. If so, it is a strong counterargument to the existence of a God.

[bryant69]

1. There is a religion forum

Perhaps this would be better off there, as this does seem strictly involved in religious matters.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. but it is NOT about a religion, lest you put

athiests and agnostics such as us in the same category as those who have had their brains washed. A similar step would be to force all Lieberman topics into the Israel/Palestine topic because Ole Joe claims the anti-semitism is driving his opposition.

[bryant69]

9. Have you been to the Religion forum?

Most of the posts there are knocks on religion by Atheists and Agnostics. They don't seem to mind being there.

Atheism is an opinion on religion and the existence of God. It is therefore appropriatel placed in a forum that discusses religion and the existance (or lack thereof) of God.

I was going to take offense at your childish attack on believers, but I'm just too tired to care.

Bryant

[ChairmanAgnostic]

12. yes, and you better get some rest.

frankly, I am sick and tired of people trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Florida are cases in point.
Oh, how could I forget? Kansas and Tennessee.

[bryant69]

14. So you are holding me responsible for what happens in those

6 states? I live in Florida as it turns out and I've been to Georgia - but never visietd the other 4, as far as I can remember.

At any rate I apologize for any forcing of my beliefs that has occured, whether I was aware of it or not.

Bryant

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. What in the world are you talking about?

[TheFriedPiper]

17. athiesm is a LACK of religion

funny how religious people always want to claim it is a religion

I guess that straw man makes it easier for them

[bryant69]

21. I didn't claim it was a religion.

I claimed it was an opinion on religion and the existence of God (which it manifestly is).

Those are not the same thing.

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.

Bryant

[TheFriedPiper]

47. HAHAHA, READING criticism from someone that believes in the

bible?!?!?!

hahahahahaha

hahahahaha

o man, the irony!

hahahaha

not that it matters, this thread is tombstoned to this empty forum

wouldn't want to allow us atheists to combat the terrorism of religion in GD!!

:eyes:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

62. Had their brains "washed"

Oh geez.

Pass the soap.

[edhopper]

18. This article

was in a major News Magazine, that's why I posted it here.

[RebelOne]

32. We do have an Atheists and Agnostics forum here at DU.

[bryant69]

38. I apologize for not knowing that

Yes there is a DU Group for Atheists and Agnostics --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

There is also a DU Topic Forum for Religion/Theology --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

You will note, however, that many Athiests/Agnostics do participate in the Religion/theology forum. Which is fine, of course.

Bryant

[varkam]

60. Slight difference

The A&A group is for donors only, whereas the R/T forum is open for everyone to participate.

[SixStrings]

50. Ahhh, the musings of a moderator-wanna-be.

There's lots of these types going around. Disgusts me. If you're not a mod keep your mouth shut about where and how people post.
Thank you.

[warrens]

2. I read it last night

I'm an agnostic (atheism seems almost like a religion), but a couple of those books look like a good read. The assumption that 92 percent of America is religious is totally ridiculous; there's an intimidation factor in our society that keeps people silent on the issue. The stat that more people would vote for a gay candidate than an atheist said a lot on this issue. Christian, Muslim, whatever, the idea of killing for some ghost in the sky is totally repulsive, yet a majority of people seem to think it's just ducky, just so long as it's THEIR ghost in the sky.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. well put and a brilliant observation

about the bias against those who claim no religion or belief. The intimidation factor has been much, much worse under Bush. When Clinton was president, no one even bothered to care that I am agnostic. Now, in many conversations it is a given that all americans belong to some religious belief system.

No wonder our science and math programs are going to hell. literally.

[abluelady]

5. 92% of America Religious???

Wow--I wonder how they define "religious." I once read a statistic that has stuck with me as unbelievable was that 97% of people worldwide believe in god. I might be able to agree that 92% are spiritual, but religious! And can all those communists in China actually believe in god? I think that population would affect the 97% worldwide.

[edhopper]

7. atheism a religion?

How so? I see no evidence of the existence of any God. I see a lot of evidence to show that a God does not exist. Therefore I am an atheist on a purely analytical basis. I don't "believe" God does not exist, as I would if it were a religious conviction. Am I open to new evidence, sure. Just present me with some empirical data and I will asses it as I would any facts.

[Imperialism Inc.]

8. It is a subset of the a-unicornist religion.

This really should be in Religion/Theology forum though.

[immoderate]

33. This is more about current events/politics than religion.

My take is the R/T forum is for philosophical debate and the impact of religion on our lives. This is more about propoganda and manipulation of opinion.

For those that misunderatand atheism so as to call it a religion, I'll trot out one of our analogies: it's like calling barefoot a kind of shoe.

--IMM

[NashVegas]

10. "I Don't Believe God Exists" vs "I Believe God Doesn't Exist"

The first part is an expression of disbelief, the latter is an affirmation of a belief.

IMO, an atheist who presents the latter view does indeed veer on the edge of using their belief as religion, if not hopping over it.

[edhopper]

16. I do not say

"I don't believe God exist". I say, I see no evidence to support the existence of God. Belief is meaningless to me. Please try to understand the difference in those two concepts.

[NashVegas]

20. So What?

Not everyone who claims to be an atheist uses such narrow terms. In fact, in offline conversations where people aren't trying to debate a point, or defend their beliefs (or lack of them) I've never seen anyone use semantics to give themselves wiggle space.

[edhopper]

23. it's not semantics.

I do not "believe" in evolution, relativity, the Big Bang or anti-depressants (nod to the Tom Cruise controvercy).
I accept them as true based on the facts surrounding them. I do not "dis-believe" in faries, ghost, Nessie, UFOs or Bigfoot. I do not accept them as true because I have seen no evidence to support them.
This is scientific, critical thinking, not metaphysics.
The questiion is not "Why don't I believe in God?". It's "Why should I accept the existence of God?"
This point is fundemetal to why Atheism is not a religion.
Please go ahead and challenge my atheism, but do so in the context of why I am an Atheist, not why you believe in God.

[NashVegas]

26. I'm Not Challenging Your Atheism

I'm challenging the contention that there are not atheists who treat their beliefs in a fashion similar to the way someone expresses a religious belief does, or specific to this conversation, expressing their lack of religious faith as an affirmitive belief.

If you look up the definition of atheism, the affirmation that there is no god is usually included in the listing.

[immoderate]

34. Note that it isn't atheists who write those definitions.

Also consider that dictionaries are not proscriptive, they are journals about how words are used. Ironically, these definitions mostly come from non-atheists.

--IMM

[immoderate]

37. Dupe deleted

--IMM

[readmoreoften]

31. I agree. It's not semantics.

Saying "There is no evidence of the existence of a deity" is not the same as saying "I believe there is no God."

[Protagoras]

24. Do we need a new classification? The rejecting Skeptic

who says "You just pulled that myth out of your ass and have no proof for it" and "I don't have to believe in jack till there is some proof for it" One doesn't have to say they have absolute insight into the universe in order to reject everyone elses illogical claims.

Maybe we can call it the Religion of You Are All Wrong :D

[NashVegas]

27. Perhaps

It might give some relief in certain quarters.

[warrens]

28. That would make you an agnostic

Atheists believe that god does not and cannot exist.

[immoderate]

40. **Groan**

An agnostic is someone who does not profess absolute knowledge. An atheist, literally, is someone without a god. They don't have to believe anything. They could never have heard of god.

So what do you call someone who who believes that the Tooth Fairy does not and cannot exist? Then explain the difference.

--IMM

[trotsky]

43. I'm an atheist, and I don't believe that.

So I guess you're wrong.

[Random_Australian]

59. I'm an atheist, and I don't believe that. Time for someone to rethink

their definition.

That someone is not me.

[Zhade]

71. I'm an atheist, I don't believe that.

You're wrong.

I'm an agnostic atheist - I have no knowledge of gods (because there is no objective evidence for them) and thus don't believe in them (which is not the same as saying I believe it's proven they don't exist).

[RebelOne]

29. As an atheist, I don't say that I don't believe God does not exist.

My belief is that there is no such thing as God.

[zanne]

13. The fact that there is an intimidation factor is reinforced here

By not allowing us to speak about religion, or a lack of it, on the big forums.

[Finder]

22. Your comment shows theists have been effective in dividing freethinkers...

I do agree that the 92 percent figure is hogwash.

[donsu]

36. what do you mean when you say atheism seems almost like a religion?

I don't understand

[trotsky]

45. It means some people simply cannot understand...

why atheists might be concerned about religion and its effects on their lives and speak out for that reason, rather than speaking out due to a devotion to the "religion" of their atheism instead.

Many believers feel a need to force their worldview onto others, thus a vocal atheist MUST be following a "religion" of atheism, because if someone really didn't care about whether gods exist, they'd just shut up and be silent as their rights are stripped away and all their Senators get up on the Capitol steps to recite "One nation UNDER GOD" while blaring "Onward Christian Soldiers" in the background. See, if you're worried about that, that means you worship in the atheism religion.

[edhopper]

6. I think

one of the main points writers like Dawkins make is that belief is not proof of anything. We can go back in history and find many examples of whole populations believing something that we know is absolutely false.

[H2O Man]

11. I agree

with your post up to the last two sentences. The brain is hard-wired to pick up sight and sound. It is not a strong counterargument to the existence of music or color. Quite the opposite.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Well, if there is a God, why would It care what we believe?

I find the whole debate about the existence/non-existence of God hilariously ironic.

Why would any God worthy of the name give a rip about what a bunch of insignificant pipsqueeks living on a speck of a planet, circling a very minor star, on the edge of an unremarkable galaxy, out of trillions of other galaxies, in one of, what could be infinite universes, get fretful about what we believe or don't believe?

As someone once put it: We are like a flea on an elephant's ass who thinks he's driving.

[edhopper]

19. because

God is Love and gave his only son for our sins! And we are created in His white bearded image.
:sarcasm:

[maxsolomon]

25. the initiate's god vs. the masses' god

the nature of god has always been dumbed down for the young, uneducated or lazy.

in more erudite circles of religious traditions, the nature of god veers from sky grampa to something more akin to Pantheism, the anima mundi, the substance of all things.

historically, the majority of believers apparently cannot be trusted with this concept - it would blow their minds or they would stop believing politician's lies or in the inherent superiority of aristocrats. hence sky grampa who takes an active interest in who wins a football game vs. every thing that is is part of the divine & should be respected. believing that actively makes it hard to kill you some towelheads.

yes yes that was :sarcasm: at the end...

[patcox2]

30. The problem is that 50% of people are below average in intelligence.

You might not like it, but there are lots of dummies in the world. And there are different levels of understanding of many concepts, not just the concept of God. So its not "dumbing down" god so that the dummies won't have their minds blown, its more like an accomodation of the dummies, a refusal to chuck them from the tent just because they are thickheaded.

At the higher level of theology in almost every mainstream christian sect, for example (excepting only fundamentalists, there is no higher level of fundamentalism) you eventually reach agnosticism, an acceptance of the fact that the full truth is unknowable and that all doctrine is symbolic, not literal, to be accepted more for practical value (does it make people happy) than for its "truth."

Its not elitism. Its just fact, there are different levels of understanding in many areas of intellectual endeavour.

Stevie Wonder wrote that superstition is "when you believe in things that you don't understand." Some people, by nature of their incomplete understanding of the world, operate entirely in a superstitious world. They believe in vague forces, big conspiracies, that control the things they don't understand, such as the economy. It is even possible to superstitiously believe in, for example, Einstein's theory of relativity, with absolutely no understanding of it.

Most atheists, in my experience, take great pride in their "logical" refusal to believe in what they ever so subtly call "sky beings" or invisible friends. Thats nice, they have debunked the kindergarten conception of god. Its like playing pee wee football when you are 30 years old and weigh 250 pounds. Good for them.

[Finder]

35. I don't think it has to do with intelligence so much as it has to do...

with education.

You are correct that most who do study religion end up agnostics at best.

I disagree with your representation of "most atheists" since the same tone is found in Christians and other theists ridiculing other religions. Mocking others is sometimes a character flaw in humans in general. It is also a tool(rhetorical?) for debate and challenging others to study or back up their assertations.

[donsu]

41. laughing at your last paragraph or should I say knife thrust

there are no gods

at any level - pee wee or pro linebacker; age 7 or 91

you have a problem with logic? or should I say "logic"?

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. But your "kindergarten" concept is the mainstream of every christian sect

in terms of believing in the physical resurrection of Jesus. It's not so much 'kindergarten' as 'bachelor degree'.

[trotsky]

46. Two things.

1) It is still the official position of the Catholic Church (all the way up to the Pope) that wine & bread literally become the blood and body of Jesus Christ during the eucharist. Are Catholics not a "mainstream christian sect"?

2) The Kindergarten concept of god, yes, is quite easily debunked. Scary just how many DUers there are who still believe in it, though. Still, you've obviously never bothered to read more in-depth atheistic articles and how there's very little justification for (and plenty of substantive arguments against) even the most liberal interpretation of the divine "truth."

[edhopper]

48. Sorry

I've read Aquinas, Lewis and discussed this with priest and rabbis. Are these the "kindergarten concepts of god" that my logic refuses to accept

[Finder]

51. Aquinas and Lewis are used in religious elementary schools...n/t

[edhopper]

53. Please then,

give me the name of an author who has an intelligent college level argument for the existence of God.

[Finder]

54. That would be philosophy and there are many...

but the argument is metaphysical. As for a specific textbook, it depends what god/religion. Most theology texts assume one has a belief in a deity so never approach the question from a logical perspective except for apologetics.

[Realityhack]

56. Special pleading. (on edit) no true scottsman as well n/t

[edhopper]

58. So,

you belittle the writers I mention as proponents of God. And cannot offer any philosopher with a good argument for god.
Theological text are a mass of contradiction and are only self-reverential.
I am open to hear pro-God reasoning. Please provide some.

[Finder]

61. Not belittling at all, I like and respect both of their bodies of work...

I have never read an argument for god that convinced me so I am a bit biased in that area.(like you, I am an atheist)

Most if not all theological texts are built on the premise that a god does exist.

If there was such a thing as a reasonable argument for deity it would be well-known. The ID movement is the latest attempt and as I am sure you have noticed, most of the arguments they put forward are not logical.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

64. I really do hope you are correct

because if it turns out that the smart folks over-think, and the dimmer ones are right I'm going to pretty much freak out.

But think about it. Most of us here like to think of ourselves as on the other end of the bell curve. Indeed, many of us have the paperwork to prove it. But we smart people can go off on some pretty esoteric tangents.

[Finder]

39. Agree and even among theists it is said there is milk...

and then there is meat. Often that is used to entice one who has doubts to further their brainwashing err...I mean scripture study.lol

[ChairmanAgnostic]

42. I was wrong, so very, very wrong.

and I admit it.

This does belong on the religious thread

[edhopper]

49. I have found

that when I explain to believers why I am an Atheist, I often say why the God of the Bible is hard to accept. The discussion usually spirals from there into an explanation of a God or Intelligence in the Universe that becomes so vague as to be meaningless. This is just my experience, but I would like to hear a sophisticated description of God that doesn't leave the Universe working exactly the same as if no God exist.

[Finder]

52. Same here...

and the all famous question: Who caused the big bang....

[hunter]

55. It doesn't matter how the universe works.

It matters how people think.

Obviously "God" (imaginary or not) has a lot of influence on the structures of human society.

You have to deal with this reality just like you have to deal with physical realities such as gravity.

Personally I carry a lot more scars from my misadventures with religion than I do from my misadventures with gravity. Sure, I might sometimes wish religion would simply go away, but for all the power I have, I might as well wish that gravity surrounding me would go away if I should happen to fall down the stairs.

For lack of a better term, I believe everyone needs to have some spiritual framework to their lives. It doesn't have to be religious (in fact many aspects of religion seem to inhibit this) but it does have to connect you to other people by some sense of wonder and curiosity.

[Ron Green]

57. Good point.

I don't even think it matters if God is real or not, in provable terms, but that we as humans seek to improve our spiritual connections with each other, which after all is how we manifest the "God self" within us.

Getting rid of "religion," "God," "spirit," or whatever anyone calls it is just as foolish (and impossible) as getting rid of government. However, we ought to be about improving these facets of individual and public life. Fundamentalism is harmful, just as fascism is harmful. Scholarly and tolerant religion is beneficial, just as social democracy is beneficial.

[shrike]

70. Excellent post n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. I think I'm going nuts

because I am literally laughing out loud. I haven't had much time for DU lately, grading papers and all. It's a busy time of year. But I thought I'd drop in and see what was up. And you know? It's like playing online poker. You never know what hand you'll get but you can be sure the deuces WILL come up regularly and once in a while you'll hit a flush. It's just a matter of time. So today I read from a concerned Xtian (and I've written the same angst-filled posts myself) that fundies aren't proper Xtians. And then here we have the ubiquitous "what do atheists believe" thread.

I love you guys. You are like the moon. It always comes up. And I'm right there with you!

But I say we all just shut up and have a party on the front porch.

[Goblinmonger]

66. Get some vodka

and we'll exchange papers to grade for a change of pace. I'm in Grannie. You up for grading some grammar worksheets?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

68. Sure. But I don't think I can handle

any creative writing at the moment. Although candidly, some of the best laughs I've ever had were in grading student work.

[Random_Australian]

67. How about we party till the cows come home, and then party with the cows?

:)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

69. Do you get that commercial in AU

that shows all the cows stacked up on each other? I love that. It is for Ziploc containers..something about things are easier to find when they are stacked up.