I believe in God.

[Evoman]

Okay, wait. No I don't. But I just had an idea for a thread. Now then, what I want people to do is argue the exact opposite of their normal position. This is something my high-school teacher had us do..it forces us to try to understand the other's position, as well as hones your debate skills. Hell, it may just give the other side of your argument some ammo. So basically, the atheists have to argue as to why god exists, and the theists have to argue that god does not exist, or why they have no belief in god. Now, I don't want any caricatures...argue as logically as you can, and TRY not to make too any fallacies (if you do it, then try to be convincing and make arguments that other atheists and theists have made). And people, lets not get too flamey..I expect everyone to be as civil as they can. And to the agnostics...well, take a position (either atheist or theist), and do your best. If you can argue the opposite position, then please do not respond to the thread.

I'll start. *now turning on theist mode*

I believe in god, because I just don't see how its possible that the universe didn't have some cause. Physics says that for every cause, there was an effect. The universe is an effect, so it had to have some sort of cause, right? Now, I believe in evolution, but I believe that god put things in motion. Its also very obvious to me that god is good: there is so much beauty in the natural world for Him to be evi. I also think that what scientists have found does match up a lot with whats in the bible..the bible is metaphorical and allegorical, but its there. The big bang, etc. Not only that, I believe that Jesus did die for our sins, but that is only one component of being saved. God sent his son to teach us, the make a new convenant with us, and implored us to help each other and love our neighbours.

Now, I want to ask everybody here a question. Its obvious that not everyone believes in god, and thats okay. You don't have to believe in him, and he will still love you. But I wonder how atheists explain the universe, and see all the beauty and nature in it, and still deny god. Do you feel sure that god doesn't exist?

[eallen]

1. That's a pretty weak argument....

You've merely replaced the need to explain something we know a little bit about, the universe, by the need to explain something completely unknown, your philosophical god.

The best argument for god -- now putting on my theist hat -- is that He has revealed himself to me. He has sent His angel, who told me the following things...

Well, I'll let the argument lapse now, since I have no desire to start a religion. But that is the way religions start. Not by philosophical argument that at most points to a god as ethereal to most people as the field equations of GR, but by claimed revelation. It has much to recommend it. First, it is empirical. If an angel comes and visits, you have to make something of that experience. And what you make of it is based on experience. Second, instead of a merely arguing for a philosophical god, it provides specific knowledge of a specific god. (Assuming you believe the revelation.) Third, it provides an entry for all the things that religions need to do: establish rules, rites, and institutions, provide dogma, promise salvation, damn the opposition, etc.

Too bad you don't believe my angel: he says you're going to hell.

:evilgrin:

[Evoman]

2. You haven't argued my point at all.

What is the first cause?

I don't have to explain something thats unknown, because god is NOT unknown. Your right that the universe is unknown, but god is not..he has shown himself, and his nature, plenty of times in the past. I also think we will learn more about the universe, and get even closer to god, but god probably doesn't think we are ready to venture to the stars. I also didn't say I didn't believe in your angel...god manifests himself in many ways. We all take different paths, and your angel (although I don't believe you saw one, you just choose to ridicule instead) may just be His manifestation. We may be taking slightly different paths, but we all end up in the same place.

[Union Thug]

7. He has shown himself? How? In what way?

If I eat enough mushrooms, sure, I might say that I've seen god, but that doesn't make him/her/it real anywhere outside my skull. If someone tells me god has revealed him/herself, I want proof. And I don't mean folktales and myths.

[Random_Australian]

3. My turn! (You call THAT avoiding caricatures)

I believe in God because the faith that I have in Him gives me comfort - but I still take care not to make assumptions based on His existence about the world. I think science is quite correct in that evolution occurs; I must remember that the Lord will choose his own ways, which we discover.



What say you?

[Evoman]

5. I agree...well met.

God gave us science, and our brains, as a gift for us to use. However, I don't agree that we can't make assumptions, because God has told us about his nature and a part of His plan. God gave us his word...now, not all things in the bible are literally taken. But there are some common things to all religions that tell us that god wants us to have faith, and love your neighbour. These are all assumptions Random Australina, but I have no doubt they are true.

[Random_Australian]

8. I would provide counter example with the atheists.

Because 'us' applies to all humans and 'common to religions' applies to only us theists.

God wants something, but I don't think we can understand enough of Him to understand what he wants us to do. We ought to focus on leading the best lives we can - not focus on our faith, though it is an integral part of us.

[Evoman]

11. But we know what god wants.

The bible tells us. And "Common to religion" applying to only theists is not exactly true, Random Australian. Atheists also have a form of religion; its just another path up the mountain. Science and religion are both ways of understanding the universe, and both are legitimate.

[Random_Australian]

13. The Bible tells us no such thing - it tells us some small microcosm

of what God would like us to do, but does not tell us about his great Purpose.

[hyphenate]

4. Atheist here

So I will try the theist POV. Forgive me, but I can not and will not take the Christian god and argue it, but a more possible one (to me, anyhow).

God exists. He must, because things in our universe are so ordered and so precise, that it is impossible to think that they came about randomly. There is a design, here, that can not be denied.

The fact is, God has given human beings true free will. He doesn't interfere with us on a daily basis, though. It's almost a game to him--set things in motion and peer in every now and then to see how far the humans have gotten. Sort of like the old Star Trek Prime Directive--non-interference. It's not like he's not a "good" guy, because in reality, he's neutral. We used to play D&D, and God is like the Dungeon Master. He simply sets up goals, obstacles and then allows us to go to it. No judging whether we're right or wrong, but allowing us to make the mistakes we need to make in order to progress.

God didn't create the universe anytime recently. As a matter of fact, things have been around for what seems an eternity. And they will continue to exist for eternity. Things are constantly in flux. Things progress, digress, and are far more complex than we could ever imagine. God is not a human being, but something way beyond our comprehension. And our earth is not the only place that life has been set into motion, but many, many others exist throughout the universe.

On earth, God used two methods to get things going. One was evolution, and the other was seeding. Seeding consists of bringing more than one living organism and introducing it into the evolutionary plan. Where a single celled organism goes from there is any one's guess, and it's always been God's plan to enjoy watching how his creations move forward, and that's pretty much how much of the universe has developed through time.



This is my argument, and if I weren't an atheist, this is the kind of "God" I would most likely believe in.

[tech3149]

6. The primary problem discussing in this fashon is the original statement

Belief, as defined cannot be argued or evaluated in any verifiable manner. From dictionary.com #2 say's it all.
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
My perceptions and understanding of the world around me can be documented and can be debated on the basis of what others can percieve and understand. What we can prove to be true by scientific method, common perception, and documentable evidence only supports the proof of the effect. The cause can be explained by many reasons and defining which one is responsible is much more difficult to prove. The cause and effect conundrum presents the greatest question, how many causes could lead to the same effect? I spent 30+ years doing service in electronics and saw that the the primary failure was only the most obvious problem to be solved. I could demonstrate that this component failed for this reason, but I couldn't define the answer to the "why". That's where faith/belief come into the picture.

It could ne that "God" has chosen our path or that we are the result of a basic biological structure that isn't under anyones control, but just tries to keep the most intelligent and adaptive in control of the structure of humanity.

[believerinchrist]

9. Okay, my turn to be an atheist.

Look at the world--yeah right, there's a god! Violence is everywhere and good people, who don't deserve it, are being destroyed. If god exists, why doesn't he stop the killing and why does he punish people with floods, earthquakes, etc. Yeah, there's really a god of love.

Not only that, but look at how many wars have been fought in his name. Every religion cries out "we have the truth and if you don't believe like we do, not only are we going to destroy you, but you are going to burn in hell forever!" Or, look at the preachers that are bilking many naive people out of money. "Give to my ministry--when you give to me, you're giving to God and you'll receive a hundredfold return." Many people are getting rich from "preaching" the gospel while taking money from the poor.

And the creation story--what a piece of bunk! Science shows us that the world is much older than seven thousand years. Also, look at how alike we are to the other animals in the world. We see living organisms evolve for survival--it makes sense that one species evolved enough to become another species.

Religion gives people reasons to not think. It's so much easier to just follow what the pastor or the organization tells them, too. I can see people being manipulated because they do not question what they're told, but just blindly follow. Religion is definitely not for me.

[Evoman]

10. Without suffering, how can we have compassion?

God has a plan, and in order for people to do good, there has to be evil. But evil is not caused by god..its simply the absense of God.

[believerinchrist]

12. First, are we talking as opposite of what we think,

or are we back to our normal selves?

As who I am not: God has a plan, and which plan would that be? The Baptist, the Catholic, the Unitarian plan? There has to be evil to do good?!! Whatever for--it doesn't make any sense! Listen, isn't God suppose to be love? I'd really, really like to see it.




(I'm back to me.) How many of us have not suffered? Suffering is a human condition right now and of course we should be compassionate one of another. Evil is the absence of God; but if we are of God, then whenever we confront evil, we should bring about good. If we are to follow Christ, then we are here not to judge the world, but to save it through his love, grace, compassion, and mercy. We need to shake off all the religious doctrines in our lives and just love people. God's love will not fail--it is greater than the kingdom of evil!

[greyl]

14. Helplessness, like that of infants, isn't suffering.

Helplessness elicits a natural compassionate response of humans to help & protect the life of those that can't do so for themselves. It's such a deep physiological response that it happens in regards to infants of other life.
One may also have compassion prior to suffering in order to prevent suffering. I guess your God isn't that compassionate though, eh?

God has a plan, and

How can you possibly know that, and how much detail of the plan do you arrogantly suppose you know?

in order for people to do good, there has to be evil.
But evil is not caused by god..its simply the absence of God.

That's a popular, yet senseless statement. The natural state of all life is good, imo. You're just making excuses for your God because you refuse to consider that It may not be benevolent.
Furthermore, are you contradicting yourself by saying that evil is a divine product?
Is the evil you're talking about only a matter of perception, or do you mean a physical absence?
If so, that must mean your God isn't omniscient. In the case of a hawk eating a minnow, where does God reside?

edit: spling

[believerinchrist]

24. I don't believe God has a definitive plan for each life...

what I think (as myself) is that God's love is greater than evil. That's it. I also disagree with your statement that the natural state of all life is good--remember, it's the survival of the fittest, better known as evolution. If the natural state was good, there would be no competition between any living thing and evolution would not be needed.

I'm not making excuses for my God; I'm explaining my understanding. The reason I believe God is good or benevolent is because of the personal relationship I have with Him far away from any other human being. The understandings that I have spring from the years I have spent seeking Him with my whole heart and desiring to have my life be my testimony.

No, I am not contradicting myself by saying evil is a "divine product"--I'm not sure I would put it that way. I am saying that for God's purpose of giving His created beings--both angelic and human--a choice, He had to have an alternative to Himself. Without that alternative, there would be no choice. And my understanding of the alternative is best described as a sense of place, like a place of peace or a place of acceptance. When God created evil by withdrawing Himself from a "place," He created a circumstance of His absence, and evil, darkness, destruction, and death took over.

Now, Genesis 1 indicates that God went to the darkness--to the place where He was not--to create our world; the first words He spoke were "Let there be light!" When He finished the creation, His words were "very good!" He went to the place of evil and created good. Satan, who was the ruler in the kingdom of evil, did not appreciate God's creation, went after Adam and Eve, and succeeded in conning them. Thus the conflict between good and evil was started and is still continuing to this day. When death entered the world, it affected all life. Now, here is the clincher--the way death will dealt with and destroyed is through human beings using the accomplishments of Christ to defeat the kingdom of evil in their prayer closets. And, at that point Christ will return.

[greyl]

15. Did you give up? ;) nt

[hunter]

16. I believe in "intelligent design."

Nope, can't do it.

The physical "In His Image" I got has some very serious design flaws.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. But it doesn't say "in his physical image"

maybe "image" means something else? Like having the ability to reason?

Just a thought.

[hunter]

19. Well I've got some serious design flaws there too...

I was one of those weird Asperger's kids, obsessed with computers, submarines, and insects. I was a grand master of the inappropriate comment. School was hell, even college, where I was asked to leave twice because of my bizarre behavior. Eventually I figured it all out and graduated, but it wasn't an easy road.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. LOL

I teach gifted kids. In my opinion, God has a serious case of Asperger's.

I have five with it now, and my son has it. (horses, ships, fire trucks, jazz) Glad you are doing well.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. There is no God.

(Just for the record, St. Peter, my fingers are crossed.)

There is no sky daddy. No magic spirit that gives a damn about you. People who believe that are genetically inferior and let's face it...stoopid. If there were a god, then we would all be happy. There would be no war and disease and famine. And there would be no atheists. Personally, I'm tired of all these SUV-driving mouth breathers who go to church and have the balls to say Merry Christmas to me at WalMart (where I had to go to get my grandmother's large-size underwear) without even asking what I believe in. You'll notice they live mostly in the south. And mostly in the country. But then what else can they believe in there? Late run movies and last year's clothes. I don't believe in some dead guy on a stick, some zombie who came back to life. I believe in the here and now.

I gotta go now and get off the computer before my mom comes home from work.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. LOL. Grannie, you're the best! nt

[Random_Australian]

22. Oooooh! You had me going there!

(I am speaking as an atheist here) I thought you were saying the Usual Supects/Evil Atheist Posse/ Evil Atheist Cookies Group acted like that.

Damn right we get fool teens here on occasion.

(Now I'll go back to theist)

Well, how on earth do you account for the comfort people get from their religion?

Let us examine first what the purpose of finding the truth is - to make a world such that we can be happy.

For example, if the answer to, say, how do you get the best approximation of a discrete function when you are using a continous variable were to BLOW UP THE WORLD, we would not want it.

So obviously the truth in it's most exact form, is not what we are after.

(As an aside, many scientists have been theist, showing that one can have an accurate understanding of enough of the world to do great good and still be a theist.)

What we are after is happiness.
What you propose goes against that.
Therefore what you propose is wrong.

QED.

:)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Okay, this is me now

LOL

I will address your question about how to account for the comfort people get from their religion. Obviously, I can only speak for myself.

I get comfort from a couple of dimensions, and oddly none of them really pertain to eternal life. It might be nice to see my parents, husband, kids, etc. in "heaven" but really I don't think that will be exactly the case. I really don't "need" to see my parents (the only ones to have passed before me) because I AM my parents. They formed me and when they died I was amazed to feel no loss, because no one can take them from me. If my husband predeceases me, I know I will grieve and miss him, but he has been my life for 40 years and we have shared two children and he is so engrained within me that death just can't take that away.

So then why am I still attracted to my faith? Well, first there is the internal factor. All day long I have a running conversation with "God." But he is not a guy in a nightgown. He (I use the gender specific pronoun from habit) is within me and when I ask a question, he answers. Addressing him is so engrained in my thought processes I don't really call it prayer. A typical conversation might go like this: "Okay, what is wrong with this kid?" (I am a teacher) "Ask him." "Okay, good idea." yada, yada, yada. Sure, it might be just an internal dialogue but who is to say that the other that I address is NOT a spirit? I personally think that this spirit resides within and not without. As far as "comfort" goes when things are bad and I am tired, cranky, frightened, etc., I just go inside and with no words open up to the love and comfort I find there. I have had a handful of truly horrific experiences (as we all have) and this comfort has sustained me.

Okay, that's the internal part. Next I will address the cultural aspect. I was raised in the Episcopal Church and baptized at three weeks and attended church every Sunday for many, many years. When my parents became more demanding of my time as they reached the upper 80's I stopped attending, but there was no big theological reason. It was all about time. My relationship with my father, especially, was framed through church. We sang in the choir together and drove or walked to choir practice and church a couple times a week. And we shared the musical experience. We NEVER talked about God, religion, etc. Never. I would have been more comfortable talking about sex, and believe me we never talked about THAT either. But we shared these experiences throughout the liturgical year. I know the hymnal by heart and when I play the piano that is what I play. That and Bach. No coincidence that our choir was known for Bach cantatas. Today hearing any Bach at all takes me to a better place emotionally.

Later I attended a convent boarding school and that experience solidified these things.

In the years I did not attend church, I would often play the hymns or recite beloved prayers and psalms by heart and just hearing the words brought me back to my youth with my dad. That is comfort. Recently I started attending church again and walking into the sanctuary and hearing the music, the words, smelling the wax, the flowers, the candles...it was a balm to me. I would suppose that on this level it is completely a cultural thing, and that we all have our sacred spaces and memories whether believers or not. (I am using a very broad definition for "sacred" now.)

One thing I don't do in my faith is ask a lot of questions because I feel it is simply useless. Nobody is going to answer me about the big questions because as a finite mind there is no way I can understand the incomprehensible. The annoying thing to me about fundamentalist faiths is that they don't recognize this. They appear to me to reduce faith to a formula that answers all the questions and I think that is the height of human arrogance. Yet I understand the need for answers. I have, it appears, an ability to accept ambiguity and unanswered questions. I guess that is a gift.

[Random_Australian]

25. Thanks for that, TG. Believe it or not (and I suspect you might)

the real reason I am here is not to argue but to learn. Thanks so much for this.

Btw, I'm just popping in and can't type very quickly (and thus I can't be on DU much) so I gotta say bye, but if you want to know what happened to me you can always PM BuffyTheFundySlayer. :)

Cya!

P.S. Will be back to DU soon(ish). Will talk more then.

[Evoman]

26. Why are you so negative?

And what do you mean by genetically inferior...are you Hitler? He might agree with you. Religion is not what causes war, anyhow...if there was no religion, people would find other reasons to fight. Resources, technology, etc.