How many of Christ's miracles were "pull yourself up by bootstraps"

[Toots]

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish and he feeds himself forever" Got to admit that is damn good logic but in Religion logic is rarely used. When Christ took a loaf of bread and a fish or two and fed the masses did he teach them how to bake and how to fish? Remember there are always circumstances beyond some's control. Christ taught all to help the poor in a very direct manner. He did not preach "tough love". When he cured the sick he asked nothing in return and he did not spend time teaching them medicine. When he fed the poor he did so in the most direct manner. When he turned water into wine it was not to teach others how to make wine it was solely to drink. To help the poor in the most direct manner is what Christ taught and the fundamentalist seem to have missed that point. Hell the GOP even cut funding for education including trade schooling.... They really don't want to do anything. Not give outright or teach either...yet they say they are Christians. Eleanor Roosevelt said it best.."Don't tell me you are a Christian, let me figure it out on my own."

[Selatius]

1. "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps" is just propaganda

It's corporate propaganda, and it's nothing more than apologetics for exploitation of others for personal/material gain. It is apologetics for private ownership of resources that everybody needs.

[Ezlivin]

2. First miracle: Making some alcohol to drink at a party

The conversion of water into wine at a wedding party in Cana was Jesus' first miracle.

Nothing quite like being the guy who provides free, high-quality alcoholic-beverages at a party.

Who crashed that wedding?

[SteppingRazor]

3. Who said anything about high quality?

For all you know, Jesus turned that water into Boone's Farm :evilgrin:

[liberalpress]

6. Actually it was high-quality...

Look it up... the guests were amazed that they were being served the good stuff.

[Ezlivin]

8. Well, if you trust the information we have in John

It says that the host was surprised that the "best wine was saved for last."

Apparently it was high-quality. Well, at least for poor Jews living in Cana, that is.

John 2:9-10 - When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. Yeah, but his mother was there

and he was pissed at her.

[TexasLawyer]

4. and he cured leprosy

and restored sight--- without co-pay!

[Igel]

5. Not for restoring sight.

But the leprosy had a co-pay: the guy was told to go and offer the prescribed sacrifice.

[SteppingRazor]

10. Question: What exactly is the "prescribed sacrifice"....

for the miraculous curing of one's leprosy?

[Igel]

26. There were two options.

One if you could afford it; I don't recall what that was.

The other was a dove. You'd have to go and buy one--or get somebody to buy you a bird--and present it to the priest on duty. He'd examine you, pronounce you clean, and offer the dove on your behalf. Rather a bloody system, and no free rides--just reduced fares for the poor. Leprosy was about the only ailment for which a priest's examination and some animal sacrifice was stipulated; a backwater of the OT law that I know about only because Jesus expected that it be observed when he was alive.

The money changers were at the Temple for a reason. There was a lively trade in livestock and birds at the Temple in Jerusalem, esp. at holy day festivals. People would come from all over, the traders accepted a limited number of currencies, and so the money changers changed money for would-be sacrificers.

[aikoaiko]

7. IIRC the miracles were for propoganda

Its been a long time since catechism, but weren't most of the miracles done to demonstrate God's power and had very little to do with actually helping people?

[Tigermoose]

14. Both. And more.

They also were an example to his followers on how to treat their neighbors. Christ leads not only through his words, but through his actions. Jesus seemed annoyed that he had to perform miracles just to get people to pay attention to his words and example.

[Rosemary2205]

9. Teach a man to fish is NOT "tough love"

Learning to fish well is a long process. It takes learning how to read the weather, the water, learning fish habits. This doesn't happen overnight. So it requires the help of a talented teacher for quite a period of time.

So whether we just supply the fish or teach fishing or some of both - it requires a long term effort by the community not to leave the hungry behind.

[GeorgeGist]

11. So you assume...

that it's logical to believe in miracles; like magic? It may be quite entertaining but it's just deception.

[LaurenG]

13. Oh wow

have you ever experienced a miracle? I guess without personal experience one would say it's deception. It may be deception to you but for others who may have, it isn't.

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

24. So what miracles

have I not heard about. I would think if people actually experienced a real miracle, it would have been talked about in the media somewhere.

Please enlighten with an example or two.

[Tigermoose]

15. So you assume...

That nature is all there is, and that nature requires cause and effect to be linear and predictable without chance or miracle affecting the system? That is very comforting, but quite disproven in the 20th century. This assumption you hold is pre-Quantum and 19th century. And if your assumption is just that nature is all there is, then that is a philosophical assumption that you hold that forms the framework of your understanding of reality. Many people believe in a God that is "super" natural, working outside of and within nature to bring about reality.

[Goblinmonger]

22. So what "super" natural things

have happened a la miracles? Specifically things that could not be explained otherwise.

[Goblinmonger]

23. Oh, and from what my science friends have told me,

stop using quantum physics as proof of god and the supernatural.

[Random_Australian]

28. Chance and miracle are VERY different things - unless you define

miracle as something with a vanishingly small non-zero finite probability.

Which isn't divine intervention any more than rolling a six on a die.

Comforting? Who said no free will was comforting?

I don't believe in miracles - but I do not hold those assumptions.

Now, given that one who does not believe in miracles also does not make those assumptions (me, in this post) - what caused you to conclude that the previous author made those assumptions, when they are unnecessary to not believing in miracles.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. I've never gotten the 'miracle' thing.

If something extraordinary happens, with positive results TO THE OBSERVER it is a miracle. If something extraordinary happens with negative results, is it an anti-miracle? Or just bad luck?

A bus goes over a cliff, killing 17 people. A baby survives unharmed. IT'S A MIRACLE! Not so much for the people that died, however. That was just bad luck. Or maybe god had something against them.

OBL is on the run in Tora Bora, surrounded by thousands of people intent on killing him. Was his escape a miracle? To HIM it was. No so much to his enemies.

It's all magical thinking.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. If it's your baby

it's a miracle.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. Not in my life

it isn't deception. I've experienced three or four and I don't want to deceive anyone.

[trof]

12. Very good, Toots!

I have printed that to post at our county Dem HQ.

[Beelzebud]

16. And then Chist proclaimed: Get a job you welfare queen!

And another oldie but a goodie from christ: All drug addicts should either go to jail or have an overdose.


Oh now wait. Jesus Christ never said any of that shit. Just fake christian republican "conservatives".

[xchrom]

17. love it!

[area51]

19. Jesus

Apparently, there are two Jesuses; the nazi party supply side Jesus, and the Jesus of the Bible.

k&r.

[SPKrazy]

27. Because "Pull Yourself Up By Your Bootstraps"

is the philosophy of Supply Side Jesus

not the real Jesus

and Supply Side Jesus doesn't want any of his followers to give their money up to anyone but the Church they belong to!