Do you think this is a good definition of "religion"

[YankeyMCC]

I'm interested in hearing what people think of this definition of religion (It is not mine, I came across it on another web site)

DEFINITION: Religion is that set of beliefs and/or institutions, behaviors and emotions which binds human beings to something beyond their individual selves and fosters in its adherents a sense of humility and gratitude that, in turn, sets the tone of one's world-view and requires certain behavioral dispositions relative to that which transcends personal interests. In other words, religion connects a person with a larger world and creates a loyalty that extends to the past, the present and the future. This loyalty not only makes demands upon the person but -- and this is the part that makes it distinctively spiritual -- it creates a sense of humility. So religion provides a story about one's place in the larger scheme of things, creates a sense of connection and it makes one feel grateful.

I'm an atheist and I do feel that a connection to the community and environment around us is important. To me the strength and texture of my feeling about that might be what some would call spiritual, I'm sure I would've used that word in earlier times in my life. But I don't use that word now to describe how I feel because of the supernatural connotations and the idea of 'supernatural' is completely anathema to my idea of what is good and the best way to live and interact with the world.

So although on the surface this definition sounds like something akin to what I think is a good way to view the world, putting aside the supernatural connotation of the word religion, something still bothers me about this definition. But I'm not sure I can put my finger on it, perhaps it is just a bias about the words religion and spiritual (but then again word can be important and perhaps that is not a trivial concern), or maybe it is the idea it expresses the importance of humility derived from loyalty. My problem I think with this is that connection to loyalty. Yes I think it's important that we as a species and as individuals to have humility particularly in reference to the natural world around us. (All I have to do is think of the view of the knife edge of Ktaadn from Chimney Pond or the Dry Gulf wilderness from Mt Jackson to remember that :) )

I'm just looking for some discussion. Please just suffice to say I've reasons to be interested in this definition. But be assured I've no 'dog in the race' (is that the correct phrase??) I'm simply interested in the thoughts of others about it in the hopes it might help clarify my thoughts on it.

PS: I just want to reiterate THIS IS NOT MINE

:)
carry on

[salinen]

1. it creates a sense of humility

I think it does the opposite. Western religions places man as the pinnacle of life. Utter nonsense.

[Exiled in America]

2. I think that's a definition of what religion at its best is capable of--

--though we all have seen what religion at its worst is capable of too.

Still though, I commend you on a very thoughful and, I think, accurate definition.

Question: is what bothers you about the definition the disconnect between this ideal and the reality we see so regularly from so many (but not all) religious adherants?

[YankeyMCC]

6. Not mine

I found it somewhere else.

[Eric J in MN]

3. You need to add belief in the supernatural to the definition.

If someone is connected to a secular big cause, such as protecting civil liberties, that doesn't make him religious.

[Exiled in America]

8. I'm not sure....

There is such a thing as natualistic theology, which believes that the totality of existence culminaties in a larger unified essence, but they don't argue that it exists "beyond" the natural - they argue that it is natural, just not yet fully understood or explained. They tend to move away from the notion of a personal god-being and more toward the idea of a unifying organizational pattern that encompasses all living things in a sort of "order." More details depend on who you talk to. But they would reject any claim that they believed in something super-natural.

That's as opposed to classical theists, who believe very strongly that there is some dimension of a god-being that literally transcends the natural in every way.

[Eric J in MN]

10. " a larger unified essence"

Does that mean that the sum of the things in the universe adds up to a universe?

[Exiled in America]

13. I think it would be more: everything works together for a unified order--

as opposed a view of the natural world as more random.

[Eric J in MN]

15. Is it like saying that if something bad happened, then it

..must have served a purpose?

[Exiled in America]

16. not necessarily

It's probably closely connected to process metaphysics - so it is not necessary to deny freedom in order to approach theology from a non-supernatural point of view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_metaphysics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_theology

Empirical Theology:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2791

Excerpt:
Theological empiricism is a distinctively American form of religious thought. Although in recent decades empirical theology in America has flourished under the roof of process theology and in many respects is allied with process theology, empirical theology is not a subdivision of process theology. Such an approach would neglect the temporal priority of empirical theology to process theology, as well as the relative independence of empirical theology over the years. Empirical theology moves from the post-Lockean sensationalist religious aestheticism of Jonathan Edwards, to the radical empiricism of William James, John Dewey, and Alfred North Whitehead, to the "Chicago School" of theology, to varieties of empirical and pragmatic theologies at Yale and Columbia, to the empirical side of process theology, to a current revisionist empirical theology -- which is fast becoming an empiricist theology that is better seen as a historicist theology. I assume that there is nothing anywhere in religious thought quite like the combination of empiricism, pragmatism, pluralism, meliorism, relativism, and historicism that form this American chain of philosophical-theological work.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. My definition would be a bit different

but maybe some would say I'm defining spirituality rather than religion. Anyway, I see it as a set of observations about the world and a person's place in it. Instead of binding "human beings to something beyond their individual selves", I see it as a way for people to discover their true selves, and rising above the false self (in Hindu belief systems, this would be called "maya"; Buddhists might call it "desire"; Sufis call it the "nafs")realize that everything is interconnected, evolving, following the laws of energy-for that is what everything is.

That being said, there IS a sense of gratitude and also of humility-the former coming for realizing what life is really about, and the latter in the realization of the vastness of That of which we are all a part.

This system of concepts does, indeed, make one view the world in a certain way-and also to see ways to solve the challenges of life.

Religion is far broader than just one sect or one faith. There are many sects that have dogmatic belief systems (we have seen them acting very blatantly lately) who would totally disagree with my concept of religion. And there are scientists, shamen, lamas, and dervishes who would only smile and nod.

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. No, not a good definition - it's too loaded with value words.

It's also rather one-sided - it seems to have been written by a Christian, perhaps a not very sophisticated one, that equates being religious with being Christian but who also knows that he can't just go and say that. He also doesn't have a good enough command of English for this definition to work: it's full of grammatical nonsensicals.

It's also far too specific - it's claiming that religion drives a person to humility and selflessness. Some religions, maybe; and maybe for some adherents within those religions. But not all religions.

But to make these kinds of absolutist claims like "religion connects a person with a larger world" (this has within the degfinition the implicit assumption that there is a larger world, while at the same time failing entirely to define what a "larger world" is) and "creates a loyalty that extends to the past, the present and the future" (it might create some kind of loyalty, but not necessarily, and not necessarily to historical events or future ones), or "it creates a sense of humility", which is just clearly false based on looking around at fundy Christians and Muslims and Jews, and "makes one feel grateful", which is also pure bullshit.

[cosmik debris]

7. What is wrong with Webster's definition?

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Why do you need to elaborate on that? I can't help but suspect an ulterior motive.

[YankeyMCC]

9. Again Not Me ... also

I don't think there's anthing wrong with examining definitions now and then.

I believe the author of this definition was trying for something that didn't directly reference god.

(BTW: Number 2 is pretty worthless considering it relies on the phrase 'religious atitudes' )

[cosmik debris]

11. My point is that

With all the available academic dictionary definitions, someone had to make up their own feel-good definition. I suspect that the motive is self-serving. If you really need a definition of "religion" there are plenty available that are the result of years of academic research. You don't have to depend on amateurs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. I'll chime in with Chambers English Dictionary definition

(Chambers is a respected British (strictly Scottish) dictionary, eg the official Scrabble dictionary for the UK)

belief in, recognition of, or an awakened sense of, a higher unseen controlling power or powers, with the emotion and morality connected therewith: rites or worship: any system of such belief or worship: devoted fidelity: monastic life: a monastics order: Protestantism (obs.).

[cosmik debris]

20. I realized too late

That the OP is not looking for a definition of religion, but rather a justification and rationalization of religion. He says of the original "definition": "(it)sounds like something akin to what I think is a good way to view the world". That indicates to me that he is looking for a better understanding of the world, not a better understanding of religion.

[whistle]

12. Too long, this is better: Religion is the opiate of the masses- Karl Marx

[Merlot]

14. The problem with this definition - IMO

It supposes that without religion, there is no way to "connects a person with a larger world and creates a loyalty that extends to the past, the present and the future." It gives religion the all the credit "So religion provides a story about one's place in the larger scheme of things, creates a sense of connection and it makes one feel grateful." Those things can be found without religion.

[YankeyMCC]

17. I think you are getting to what bothers me about it

I feel that connection in a way that might be described as it is in that definition but...it doesn't seem correct that it should be called religion. But on the other hand should that 'connection' be called something? Is it possible or necessary to define it?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. I'm okay with the definition

because while I know many atheists say they are moral without religion (and I have no reason to not believe them) I will admit that without my religious beliefs I'd be a real stinker. You wouldn't want to know me. I do believe in an ultimate judgment and without that, all bets are off.

[moggie]

21. What would you do?

If you lost your faith, would you feel free to murder? Genuine question!