Virgin Birth

[struggle4progress]

Consider the following scenario.

A recently married young woman is obviously pregnant, and there's some good reason to think her new husband isn't the man who helped her get that way. A certain number of the neighbors are nasty snoops, who would happily relieve their small town boredom by stoning her death if they could convince enough folk she's guilty of adultery. Meanwhile, there's a strange rumor going around that her G-d got her pregnant. What do you say about this, as you wander around town?

[LearnedHand]

1. well, okay, it's bullshit, too,

but let her enjoy the pregnancy.

[Warpy]

2. You're missing the meaning of the words "virgin birth" in the ancient

world. For people back then, it referred to the first child any woman had.

That was her virgin birth, the one child her husband could count on to be his.

[struggle4progress]

6. Possibly.

But if true, and the damsel be not found virgin, bring her to the door of her father's house, and stone her with stones to die. Leviticus 22:20

Mary was pledged to Joseph but was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Joseph did not want her exposed so decided to divorce her quietly. Matthew 1:18

[rubberducky]

3. I`ve never been big on getting in other..........

peoples business,because, quite frankly I don`t want them in mine!

[evlbstrd]

4. My mother was a saint! Screw your poll!

:)

[struggle4progress]

7. It was only by accident that I left that option out.

[evlbstrd]

8. Should DU allow focus groups?

To better craft a poll? People always pick on the options, and poll slots are limited.

[struggle4progress]

11. I really can't imagine anything that will keep DUers from snarking

[evlbstrd]

12. I wouldn't dream of limiting snark.

It's one of the things I love about DU.

[rocktivity]

5. (#7) Ain't nobody's business but their own.

If he ain't the real daddy, that's THEIR problem to resolve. In the meantime, be grateful that they both want the baby and that it will at least start out with two parents.

:headbang:
rocknation

[NAO]

9. Another scenario for consideration - a possible source for this odd rumor

which has no real historical basis - not even the non-magical parts of the fable.

***

Consider the following scenario:

A ruthless, power-hungry Roman Emperor has murdered many of his friends and members of his family. He asks forgiveness from the gods of the official pagan religion. The pagan priests tell him that a man is responsible for and must live with the consequences of his actions.

He goes "religion shopping" until he finds some kooky new-age cult that tells him that ALL his sins are forgiven. He likes the sound of that so he promptly converts and then makes this hokey new religion the Official Religion of the Roman Empire.

The priests of this little secret society - who have been mildly rebuked for refusing to throw some incense on the alters of the patron state gods - seize power with gleeful abandon and go on a frenzy of murder and destruction. They kill everyone who does not agree with them, and (ab)use Roman Legions to destroy pagan temples and burn libraries of ancient wisdom. They suppress even the followers of their own religion who do not agree 100% with their version of the story. They do this so long that everyone forgets that there even WERE many, many different versions of the story.

Having seized control of the government, the followers of this new little cult suppress all reason and science as "of the devil" and "foolishness of the wise". They close the schools of philosophy. When they have completely extinguished the Light of Reason, the government and all civilization collapses and humanity is inaugurated into the Dark Ages, from which it will not emerge for 1000 years.

Now, 18 centuries later, people still believe the official version the priests imposed by bludgeon and torch all those years ago. Scholars debate various facets of the story, never seeing the obvious - that this was all just made up and is not history in any sense.

Would you wonder at the credulity of mankind and feel a sense of tragedy about this monstrous deception?

***

"For all who would struggle against the tragedy of religion"
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

"ye shall know them by their fruits" - 1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

[struggle4progress]

10. You want the "source" while I want the "meaning."

The "historical accuracy" questions have been rather thoroughly beaten into the ground in the last century and a half -- and rather clearly to the detriment of traditional apologetics.

There is the interesting but entirely independent question: "What is this story trying to say?"

[NAO]

14. The meaning is, "believe this crap or God will burn you in Hell forever"

plus you won't be able to run for political office in the US.

I don't mind so much not being able to run for office, but the eternal torment, the fire and brimstone, the wailing and gnashing of teeth - those I could do without.

[struggle4progress]

16. Generally, I don't let the wingnut theorists tell me what things mean.

Since this old (not necessarily unique) story has captured some people's imagination over several millenia, it may be worthwhile to inquire into possible meanings of the story ...

[caligirl]

13. Katherine Harris at it again?

[struggle4progress]

18. In my world, not everything revolves around KH.

[SPKrazy]

15. Perhaps It Was In Vitro Fertilization

with a sperm bank donor

in a woman who had never had sex

couldn't that be a "virgin birth"???

[struggle4progress]

17. The question of "What it really was" involves historicity issues.

The issue of whether the story is literally true (and if so, how) or fictional is completely irrelevant for the hypothetical question I'm trying to ask, which is directed rather at the problem of crafting a contextually appropriate response ...

[SPKrazy]

19. And I Was Throwing A Different Idea Into The Mix

I wouldn't stone anyone

frankly I think virgin birth is impossible

but the only way I could even conceive (no pun intended) of it is the idea that one were impregnated by in vitro

so I may miss what it is you want, and I don't seem to be the only one who has missed it

The response you receive is the message you communicate

[struggle4progress]

21. I asked an essentially political question: in a particular context,

given the peculiar views of some neighbors, what is the right message to communicate?

I am not seeking a credible biological hypothesis to explain the event around which rumor circulates: the question I asked should make sense to anyone who regarded the entire tale as fictitious.

[SPKrazy]

23. Apparently You Are In A Lonely Club

that being those that this makes "sense" to

of course this tale is fictitious

I threw in my own little wrench

credible? Possible?

ah, I've not passed the test professor

[struggle4progress]

26. Not so lonely: plenty of people read literary works and ..

.. discuss the significance of particular textual issues, so even bizarre aspects of a fabulous tale might "make sense" on closer examination. And the fact that certain people might regard a text as literally true does not prevent one from asking for cultural or psychological insights from a reading of the text, using the same methods that could be applied to a work universally acknowledged as fiction: even a fictitious text might contain useful ideas about living life, since texts are written by real people who learned something by living.

I have not, in fact, proposed any "test" to you but rather (based on a text) invited you to imagine your own response had you been placed in a certain awkward cultural (or political or social) setting: a little tale involving a context and a rumor. As I understand your posts, you object that my query is unclear -- but ordinary life provides awkward settings with some regularity, without even directly framing queries for us ...

[beam me up scottie]

20. heh, heh, I missed that.

That's exactly what I say when someone asks me that.

It's the only way.

[SPKrazy]

24. But Apparently I'm Not Answering The Question

to the OP's satisfaction here because......

well I guess I just don't have what it takes?

[Evoman]

22. Take her some freakin' Frankincense

Cuz every kid needs some Frankincense. I'd get him some Myrr, but my supplier is low on that particular herb.

[SPKrazy]

25. Other Herbs Might Be More Fun n/t

[struggle4progress]

27. ! LOL

PS: Myrrh is not an herb but a resin

[Kailassa]

28. Actually, when I was accompanying a 9 month pregnant girl

for a a medical check up, her condition had the doctor astonished.

He was doing the usual, attention focused between her legs, and them stood up and declared it to be a phantom pregnancy, as the girl was still a virgin. We laughed, got him to feel her tummy and check again. Frowning puzzledly, he felt her huge bellyful of kicking infant, then checked her carefully again.

He explained that, without her obvious proof of pregnancy, he would have been certain she was a virgin because her hymen was still intact and her cervix had not undergone any of the changes that happen during pregnancy.

The girl concerned, despite being unmarried, happily assured the doctor that she was definitely no virgin, and I diagnosed the lack of cervical softening as testosterone deficiency. We gave her that and then, at last, labour began.

The story of her apparent virginity got around to everyone but her ex-boyfriend, who never understood the laughter that, ever since, greeted his boasts about being a great lover.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

29. My question would be to ask if she's happy about it.

If she's happy then everything is great.

[dattaswamI]

30. The Father & Jesus

The Father & Jesus

Jesus is said to be born to only mother without Father. He always praised Father and did not regard His mother so much. When a lady cried that His mother is great, He said that the follower of the instruction of His Father is really great. What is the inner meaning of all this? Does this mean that He disregarded His mother and praised the non-existing Father? No. In His language the Father is God. The mother is the primordial energy. He has gone to the final stage of divine knowledge and realized that God is the root of the root cause. An atheist does not accept Father and believes in the sole existence of mother (nature). A theist believes in both. A realized devotee believes only God, since the nature is also created by God. Without realizing this inner concept, the Christianity is divided into two schools of son and mother taking everything in physical sense. The son of virgin means the concept of science, which says that a child is produced from Nature which is in the form of parents.

In science, both mother and father are equally important representing the sperm and ovum. This is the material sense, which is not here. In spiritual sense, both are nature or mother only. There are so many couples without children. The will of God is the father without which no child is produced. But God is hidden always and is inferred by knowledge. This point is represented in the example of father and mother even in physical sense. Therefore, Jesus caught the root of root cause, who is the God or divine Father and not this primordial energy or mother up to which only science can go based on perceptional analysis. This does not mean that Jesus really disregarded His mother and this explanation also does not mean that one should disregard the mother. In the physical sense both are equal because both are mother only in spiritual sense. God is the father in the spiritual sense, who is the hidden cause in both the concept and simile.

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
[e-mail]